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I worked at a few signshops(8) from sweeping floor to install to design, did graphic design for bands and clubs, surf wear, and did manage to go to Art Center for 3 months, but quite because I had a horrible attitude. But each time I moved from shop to shop, I noticed that each shop made more and more, I used to listen to the sales pitch, read and practiced my design skills and then by accident got my current job. I was obsessed with designers presentations, shop drawings and portfolios. So I am a sign guy, I just happen to be a lucky one. I actually posted 2 things, one is my bosses new book, and classes on signage and wayfinding for national parks and trails, but with no response. Check out these links, since people are so interested in this link and not mine By the way, the SEGD has a lot of information on large scale sign design, and project management, there are plenty one one and 2 people design shops, that take on larger sign projects, or support architects or other firms, so it's not impossible for anyone here to do it.
posted
So... since no one here seems to like haggling, does that mean you all pay the asking price for your personal vehicles and shop trucks?
I don't particularly enjoy the haggling process, I'd rather just buy it and get it over with, but if there is money on the table, room to move, and the other party is up for it I *WILL* take advantage of the situation.
I got an $18,000 truck (my mazda mini, loaded with every option available PLUS I got them to install a receiver hitch and trailer wiring, the very night I bought it right before closing time) for $11,600.. simply because I haggled, knowing full well that the dealer has lots of room to move.
I get regular haggling practice when I drop into Mexico every once in a while.. they have room to move on their goods and they will bust their butts to make a sale.. my sister bought a wrought iron outdoor furniture set, and with a little haggling we not only got a lower price (remember they have enough mark up to still make a profit) but we got them to CARRY all the pieces ACROSS the border and to my truck for us!
I think the problem is, some people are already at rock-bottom on their pricing so they have no room for haggling. If you had an extra 30% you'd have a different outlook, and the customers that don't haggle, well you'd just pocket a little extra.
If you are dead set against haggling, let the foreigners know you are insulted as that is not normal practice in our country. If you went to their country and didnt haggle, they'd be insulted by you! When I first started going to Mexico, the first thing I learned was if you walk out of their store empty-handed, they follow you down the street trying to engage a negotiation.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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My brother in-law sent me the following and I believe it is appropriate to post it here.
After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered, I believe this is even more appropriate. Read on, please!
This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa Newspaper. He did quite a job, didn't he?
IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.
However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.
This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.
Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.
We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.
If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.
This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle.
Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his or her opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedoms, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
-------------------- John Weber 3863 Buckskin Rd. NE Carlos, MN 56319 800-853-7051
quote: My brother in-law sent me the following and I believe it is appropriate to post it here.
I don't mean any disrespect John, but as this is an international bulletin board serving a worldwide community I don't believe it is an appropriate place to post that.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Mike....don't Canadians have their own lifstyle? Don't they expect others to go along with their traditions? True, this is an international bulletin board, but rather than disparige the previous post... it is a good reminder to immigrants from any nation going to any other nation...that local customs are expected to be observed!
Just my 2 cents worth!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think part of the "American problem" is that we are not exposed to other cultures like other countries are. We're over here on our side of the pond and both of our immediate neighbors speak the same language or can at least accommodate.
The Europeans I talk to on a regular basis almost all speak multiple languages because driving from country to country in Europe is like driving across a state in the US.
Imagine driving 3 hours in any direction and ending up in a place with a completely different language, different customs, and even different money. They HAVE to accept it, they simply have no choice so this probably makes them quite a bit more open-minded to other languages and customs.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Yep , this is an International Forum and the "hooray bombastic jingoist flag waving" post was not appropriate and IMHO rather xenophobic. Basically it said "Either you do stuff our way or F-- O--!!!" and posting it here implys one should treat ones customers that way.
A countrys culture evolves and if you have welcomed a huge mix of other cultures to your land expect to deal with folk of diverse customs.
I am in a country with multiple cultures and have NO problem whatsoever in adapting my sales method to suit them - they all pay with the same coin.
As to customers haggling , well a price advertised or given is merely an inducement to purchase and can be modified before a contract is struck. We are all entitled to minimize costs and maximise profits , which applys to both sides of the "offer". The customer who has come in and haggles has given of THEIR valuable time too , in that they have travelled to you , enquired and obviously have the intention to buy. You can politely decline their counter offer , but getting annoyed and showing it cos they are wasting your valuable time haggling or are trying to do exactly what you are (minimise cost and maximise profit) is really an insult to THEM and will generate poor PR where it shold generate a sale. I bet most of those that object to the haggling would not be so offended by it if business was slow.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.
John, not to drift away this great post as it has developed, but the author of that article is making a common assumption about "our own language". Truth of the matter is that as far as language is concerned, here in the States..."we ain't got none."
Although many nations have an official language for thier citizens to recognize and be expected to speak, the founding fathers here in America felt it was detrimental to have one in the interest of recognizing the equality of all people, spoken launguage not withstanding. To this day, the United States has not required that all it's citizens speak english. We just have adopted it over time as the most commonly spoken language. Neither is it considered wrong to speak another language and not english.
Even within our country, dialects are often hard to understand. Sonny's original post had "far-ners" and Mike's dificulty understanding a call to a customer in nearby West Virginia are examples. Heck, when I get going on my "Nuh Hampsha' tahkin on tha phone with a cuhstoma" I'm probabaly hard to understand, too.
Having just gone to French Kiss A Brush in Quebec, I can't tell you how nice it was to not have my last name butchered as much it usually is by most folks here in the states. My family name is Canadian in origin and the spelling is difficult for most Americans to understand as a result.
Language barriers sometimes do make haggling difficult, given the added time it takes translating terms so that both parties understand each other. I've always looked at it as not only a situation where customer relations can be very trying, but rewarding as well.
Not having traveled overseas, it's an opportunity to get a little slice of a much larger world. My physical therapst is from Europe and when I described my work to him, he told me that pinstiping or decaling a car for only personal use is illegal in his home country.
I guess the bottom line on the whole haggling thing is about mutual respect. As long as the "potential" customer respects the service you can do for him, a little haggling can be done. When they overstep that, I find it's better not to deal with them and move on to better things.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
John, I'm sure you meant no harm but, as I know too well, that alone doesn't prevent others from being offended.
I wanted comment on a quote from near the end of your post.
quote:..once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life...
That just reminded me how complaining, whining, and griping about a flag, a pledge, a national motto, a way of life, (& a tax) was kind of how America came to be, & IMO, now more then ever, we all should be paying attention to how our society is running rather then wanting everyone to just follow the status quo.
posted
I'd venture to say most of these answers come from people who have never lived and worked in countries other than their place of birth. I have lived and worked in 4 different countries other than the United States. I have haggled with merchants in Latin America and the Middle East. It is a universal thing to barter for an accepted price and for the merchant to get his accepted profit. Sure we're busy, but don't ever be to busy to relate to your customer. Know who you are dealing with. That's what haggleing allows you to do.
posted
Allow me to give you a little tip about talking with people that don't speak english well, be it during haggeling or any other conversation. This was my experience when I travelled the US the first time, with limited school english: people didn't realize that the reason I couldn't understand them was that they were talking too fast and not clear enough (hey, I was in Tennessee and down to New Orleans...) Rather than dropping the slang and slowing down, they would speak louder, assuming that I was deaf, the next reaction was to wave their hands and walk away, this time probably assuming that I was an idiot. This has never happened to me in any other country in the world, and I've been to many places.
posted
Consider haggling an opportunity to sell more products. If they seem firm to get some sort of deal, and you are firm on your price, offer them a discount on a future sign, say 10%-15% a 'good customer' discount. Write this right on the invoice for them and sign it. This does two things, firstly it does not reduce the value your work, secondly they achieved their objective, to get some sort of deal. Everyone is happy and you may even get more work from them in the future.
When I was still at home my dad (signpainter) made a 2'x3' sign for a realtor. Dad was not the fastest brushman around so the sign took some time and effort to finish, but looked great, just not much of a money maker kind of job. Guy comes in and balks at the price, figures it is only worth half of the asking price. Didn't take long for Dad to get a little excited since the guy was devaluing my dad's time. After some heated debate dad took the sign (1/2" MDO) and broke it in half accross his knee, folded it up and gave it to the guy, put the invoice on top of it, and dared the guy not to pay for it. The realtor paid and left. Although it may have felt good at the moment, it did loose him possible future business. Food for thought.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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By the way, the SEGD has a lot of information on large scale sign design, and project management, there are plenty one one and 2 people design shops, that take on larger sign projects, or support architects or other firms, so it's not impossible for anyone here to do it.
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