posted
At the risk of sounding like a racist redneck (insert Jeff Foxworthy joke here), I was wondering how others deal with customers who haggle you to death and never seem satisfied. The demographics in Atlanta are changing rapidly and I find that I'm dealing with more customers for whom English is, at best, a second language.
I met the other day with Mehmood, Rashmi, and another gentleman whose name I won't even attempt. They wanted a logo for a carpet company they were taking national and asked if they could just choose one from a book. I explained that a logo has to be an original design and my prices were $60 an hour with a 2 hour minimum. You'd have thought I hit them with a brick and a request for their virgin sisters. After a round of foreign babble, they announced they were willing to pay $50 total, with the ever-present promise of "lots more work in the future". I decided it was time to walk, told them that the design and any "future" work was $60 an hour. As I headed for the door, round 2 of babble ensued, followed by an anguished agreement to my terms.
I delivered some renderings several days later, they picked one they liked and wanted to see some different color combinations. More distress when I told them "No problem, but you're on the clock". I e-mailed the color revisions and Mehmood called and said they wouldn't print out, could I bring a hard copy to his office. Again, a rate reminder, again audible anguish. He got directions to pick them up.
I'm not trying to trash hard-working immigrants, (down South, we call 'em far-ners) but why do they make it such a hassle? I'm the first to admit that I'll try to save a buck wherever I can, but without being unreasonable. In the past, I've tried going in with a higher estimate and then allow them to haggle it down, but that style just doesn't work for me. I like the 3-tier pricing method for signs, but that doesn't really apply to design work.
I prefer a friendly working relationship with my customers, but every time I deal with a "far-ner", I get the feeling they think I'm cheating them or something. Anybody have any solutions?
BTW, we don't think of the Canadians, Brits, or Aussies as far-ners. We love you guys, especially since you're the only ones who still like us. You DO still like us, don't you?
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't take the haggling too seriously, in some cultures it's a normal friendly thing, expected even. If you treat these guys fairly, and that's all that's expected, you'll end up with good loyal customers. I've got a couple who love to haggle, a conversation with them typically starts "How much will it cost?", reply "thousands & thousands" (said with a grin) and take it from there. Each point is to be laboured over, all part of the fun, noone is out to cheat the other, but the end result is that the price to be paid and the services expected are clearly understood by both parties.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
Reading you post made me think of dealing with a "group" decision, which I have made it a point to stay away from whenever possible. I've always had more troubles when several people have input on a job as opposed to one person overseeing it.
For the most part, difficulties pop up when one or more people have diferent opinions on what they need, image and price wise. As the old saying goes, "you can please some of the people"...etc. I usually try to get a feel for who is the leader of the group, and subtlely lean towards getting him to take charge and be the one to address most things to, without ignoring the rest of the bunch. Takes a little experience to get the hang of, but makes things easier in the long run.
Seems like Mehmood is that guy, based on your post. You typed his name first and he's doing the follow ups. Just a guess...
In the cases where that doesn't work, I politely ask them to call when they have a more defined idea or price range that I can work with.
A lot of the "far-ners" also grew up in countries where haggling prices in the open marketplace is not only an option, but often considered an art.
my 2 cents Rapid
OT-A friend of mine worked for years in the petrochemical field and once told me that his meetings in China were always done while drinking some kinda stuff that made Saki look like water. They also did not make any agreements in writing, but would hold you to your word. I once tried that some of stuff they were drinking. You could smell the alcohol from 50 feet away the second bottle was opened. Yikes! No wonder they did verbal contracts...probably too "schnockered" to be able to write legibly.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sonny its like Ray & Mike said, its part of the culture ho haggle and in some countries its the only way to do business, I recently came back from 2 weeks in Tunisia (North Africa between Algeria and Libya on the Med coast) and haggled for almost everything, it is an art form watching some of these guys waving their arms and shouting at each other in a mix of arabic and french all over the price of 10 kilos of potatoes, one piece of info I was given was never pay more than a third of the price they ask, so in that case you should have started at $150 an hour, have a go next time its fun.
-------------------- Steve Broughton Alpha Grafix Signs Lowfields Road Benington, Boston Lincolnshire, England Posts: 315 | From: Boston, Lincolnshire, England | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
Sounds to me like you handled it just perfectly. You stated your fees, were polite, and didn't back down. To do otherwise would make you look weak and less of a pro.
It's kind of like handling angry and argumentative people...if you you maintain your composure, and speak in reasonable tones they will eventually quit yelling and come over to your way of thinking....in many cases.
And when they don't, you simply do what you did: "Well, thanks for meeting with me...give me a shout if you'd like me to do the job" and walk away.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's not part of my culture and I give them the price they can take it or they can leave it and if you think other cultures are a pain try dealing with a soccer mom or a sorority house mother.
I don't have the time nor the patience to deal this way...sorry!
The worse people to deal with are the ones that come in (supposedly) recommended to you from someone your suppose to know.The party is over when they ask if thats the same price I gave "Joe Blow"...right away they are eating into productive time.
Then there are the churchs that want the best price but find no real reason to pay right away.
I could go on but whats the point ...I'm eating into my production time.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
I understand that most of the world bargain and negotiate deals with every transaction, and we consider it impolite. Can you imagine these folks doing this at the supermarket with items that have printed prices on them? Or what if you went into the Rubyiat Restaurant and haggled them over the prices? I think it more than just cultural, but an old world-new world conflict. We are doing all kinds of analysis of cost study and marketing expenses to determine what we need to sell our wares for. They function more intuitively.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6736 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
In our experiences in Mexico and the Caribbean, when you go into a supermarket that has prices and/or bar codes on the products, THAT is the price you pay and there is no negotiation. Same applies to other types of stores.
HOWEVER, if the product has no price tag attached then the price is stated verbally and let the negotiations begin!!
Seems to me that since we don't offer a product or service that a price tag can be affixed to, since it doesn't exist yet, that these folks feel it is only correct to barter the price.
Heck, it is a lot of fun. As long as you don't let it go on for more than a couple of minutes!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Being the polite Southern Gentleman you are is ALWAYS the right way(here in America) It is fine with me that that how business is conducted where they come from(a far) BUT...... you have HOME COURT ADVANTAGE! I have had success with keeping a "OFFICAL" Sign Contractors Pricing Guide around,to sho'um in Black and White what signs cost,no matter where they go! ANOTHER good reason WE should always keep one around. I find they know what they want,yet they feel better about it according to price. Guess thier mamas never told them...they ALWAYS get what they pay for!!!
Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sonny I was given a great piece of advice by a salesman for a national firm once for dealing with "Ram" and "Achmed". These guys think it is perfectly natural to haggle over rates and prices,as it is common practice in their culture.Very simple solution,... raise your prices 25 to 30 percent, then let them haggle you down to a figure that is just above your original price to cover your extra time and effort in the sales routine.As long as they "Think" you have let them haggle the original price down you will be in their good graces as they think they got a "Deal" with you.Often as not a complaint about them being hard to bargain with will make them proud of themselves and voila, you have a happy customer,...
Meanwhile my phone rings,....Teeem,.. theeeese ees ram,...you come paint my siiiign????
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Timi, your procedure is what my dad used to call "The Preacher's Discount". He used it in his lawnmower shop. Up 25% in your head, down 10% on paper.
-------------------- Joe Endicott NEXCOM (Navy Exchange Service Command) Signing Programs Specialist Virginia Beach, VA jeendicott@msn.com
"I want to be Stereotyped....I want to be Classified." Posts: 681 | From: Virginia Beach, VA USA | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Haggling, Bargaining, You have not lived until you see it in action for real. Ive stood in awe when I watched my wife get something for half of what I was goona pay.
I've been fortunate to travel to the East and watched first hand some of the world's finest hagglers in action. It is never meant as a "jack his price down", It is always a social event. In some places it comes with some refreshments too.
Korea for example, you get a price and negotiate away with a smile and never insult the seller. Ever wonder why some Asians are so polite? This is their culture. Japan is classic. If you are not carefull you will wind up giving them your shirt and your money feeling like "wow, im glad he let me do business with him".
Middle East is the same way. And it is their culture and customs to test your "mettle" through bargaining. Pearl wholesalers are masters. Every sale is made thru a handshake and some tea. Never with a "contract". I have a following from India and Pakistan here. They all try to bargain and I start with "would you care for some drink"? And away we go. The benefits are tremendous because now I appear to be part of their culture and get lots of work from the hindu hiltons, the shops, the gas stations etc. I don't move much on price. I do give them some extra letters or some thing else to go with their request. Ive used scrap lexan and plex to give them a small bonus panel for their desk or wall.
Smile and take part in their ways. Its their culture and in no way are they trying to be cheap..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hear ya Sonny with not having the inclination or patience to play along. In younger days I let myself get beat to death by that tactic. I sucked at it. I STILL suck at it, but at least I can see it coming now.
The adding-on then taking-off strategy is probably best, but who wants to do that? It's not my nature. My best defense (with ALL customers) is to start talking price immediately, and get them to commit to a realistic budget. Guaranteed there will be negotiations before its all through, but at least the bottom line has been established.
In my last deal like that, I ended up having to conceed a little extra site work (digging two extra holes), but I got them to remove their own demolition debris - actually not a bad tradeoff. They rave about me, and I always get a warm welcome when I stop in to check on them. Very nice people.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I guess I qualify as a red neck as I don't bend to ALL cultural differences. I have one way of doing business...mine. I know, I know, haggling is part of their culture, but it's not part of mine and the last time I looked I was in Tennessee. We serve up some fine Bar B Q down here, but you'll look long and hard and never find any dog or cat on the menu, women are treated as equals and free speach exists. Sorry, but I feel some cultural ways are best left in the country of origin.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Sonny, those same 2 guys must live in my hometown, and they own a string of motels. Here I am a lowly old sign painter in their eyes. It really gets to me. Rude is still rude no matter where you're from.
Good ideas here all around. I think the old world way is to barter, but we Americans are in too much of a hurry to do too much bartering. It requires a lot of time. Just imagine having to spend an hour trying to get a loaf of bread.
I tell those folks you can barter with the car salesman, but in my shop I've got to make the product not just sell it. My best line (works with uppity lawyers and doctors too) is to say, "You don't have to be embarrassed if you can't afford my services, there's a lot of things I can't afford either."
The word "embarrass" is key, because it humiliates -- in a psychological way -- the cheap anal stingy rich guy who is arrogant, rude and likes to make you think your services aren't worth much. You've also told them that you are living within your means with the second part of the sentence. Usually these type of folks will try to show you they can not only afford your services, but now want to take a second look at the most expensive technique you can offer. They puff out their chest and go for the Cadillac, rather than admit they're on a budget. Now to secure the sale keep trying to sell them the less expensive product while interjecting phrases such as, "for my budget minded customers, I've got this product" or "how did you get our name, because we mostly cater to those who can afford the more expensive work." Now you've got the BASTARDS right where you want them -- on then end of your hook. If not at least you've had a little fun with it and life goes on.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
When dealing with "hagglers" fom the Middle East, Asia, or other places that haggeling is the norm....DON'T try to embarrass them... it doesn't work!!!!! They do not get embarressed by haggleing....BUT .... you may inadvetredly insult them .... and now you are talking to the furniture!!!!! Lost sale!
How do I know this? Both my parents and grandparents emmigrated from the Middle East! My father hated to buy from a place that had premarked prices! He would go where he could haggle. AND at a tender age, I was taught the fine points and nuances of the process.
Other cultures are not as in a hurry to close a deal... haggling is a "fine art" ... to be enjoyed!!!!!
As others have stated, it is a way of producing a lot of very loyal customers...who will reffer all their friends and relatives to you.
When asked if this is the same deal that you gave Abdullah, say: "No! I am giving you a better deal, because blah blah blah!" (Works EVERY time)
Now ...as a side note...IF the customer is a slimy, abrasive, ignorant SOB...when he haggles down, simply haggle up! Example:
"How much to paint (insert some specifications)?" "$378.47" "Too much! I give you $214.56!" "Nope!" "How much then?" "$427.75!" "NO NO NO! Give me a better price!" "OK $475!" "That's not a better price!" "It is for me! " "No NO You do it for $378.47?" "OK!" "
Werks fer me!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi I've had a sign in my shop for years. It sez "HAGGLING WILL NOT BE TOLERATED" 99% of the time,it werks fer me, too. love- jilly
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
My experience with the Asian culture has been somewhat negative. I have never been able to get my price from two attempts at chinese resturant owners. One guy had his wife do all the talking. She got in a price war with the garbage man when he picked up the dumpster that was twice as heavy as it was supposed to be, (they were remodeling)
In my circle of business people, the feeling is simular. The last one told me she would buy from China Town and pay much less. I asked her if they would be flying in and supporting their resturant.
I don't want to sound redneck either, but I wonder if it;s somthing engrained in youth?
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I like Bill's suggestion best After reading Si's reply, I would agree that Bill's approach could have a negative impact on sales to the far-ner community at large, but it sure seems like a good way to stand your ground & reflect any condescending attitudes back on the offending party, in an appearantly polite way.
What I have often done is offer the sign as they requested it for X number of dollars, then when offered X - 25%, I smile & say sure, we can use coroplast instead of white acrylic... or sure a 2' x 10' banner instead of 3x10, or maybe sure, we'll just delete that second color or that logo. I do this quickly, repetitively, & with a smile. It is basically done as my way of "playing along" & doesn't waste much time, often gets me the work too.
I will add to that, to say that I have gotten prety good IMO at throwing out those high numbers & getting prices to make my letterhead buddies proud, but as a result, I do have a 5 - 10% margin at which, I really would rather have the job for a little less then my asking price, rather then not at all. Some of my regular (non far-ner)customers have figured that out, so I have a few that consistently get my best deals, but if they ask too much, I just list my expenses & remind them my "best deals may not be here tomorrow for them, if I give away the store.
posted
Sonny, did you get a deposit before making the signs.? I have the same problem. I once asked the gas station/convenience store owner if i could gas up today for -30 cents per gallon. Of course not!
diane
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1703 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
i had 2 brothers in sarasota, their names were ziad and reiad......one owned a antique/used fruniture store the other had the a copier machine sales/repair business. ziad was 1st customer....1st meeting was as with any customer....and he "haggled" me down a bit(needed the money). next time he called i bummed up the 1st quoted price.....and he again hit the ceiling got all upset....and then i came down on the price (what it shoulda been to begin with)and he was happy. then reiad calls me....so now iam wired for "haggle culture", and i go meet him. same thing as with the brother....the back and forth....the emotions rising....and then i sorta give in...and got my price. this relationship lasted 4-5 years......and most of the time one of us bought lunch while we "haggled"....and i will say this as fierce as the haggling sounded, it was all "just business" and these 2 guys not only were good clients...but good freinds....and never went lookin for cheaper signs.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have no problem insulting anyone who insults me in my place of business by telling me that I should charge them less.
I dont have time to waste by playing a game I dont enjoy. I dont need or want anyones business bad enough to play by anyone elses rules other than my own.
I nearly threw an Indian by the name of Patel out the door physically. I told him I didnt want his business but he insisted because he was told I was the best around. I wanted $1500 he wanted to give my $1300...i said no and to leave and he wouldnt. He said $1350 so I said $1700. He said no my friend that it more money. I said it would only get higher no please leave. He would'nt and even his wife tried to get in on this rediculous game.
Screw that.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
You ALL haggle. this isn't about that. this topic is about haggling with people from different cultures. I'll lay it out for you.
You might say "those A-rabs are hagglers" but the "good ol boys just like to negotiate".
Anybody who's ever had to bid on a project has been involved in a quiet form of haggling -- its just that you're doing it against other sign shops rather than directly with the customer.
Many people here have the "three tiered pricing" -- that's haggling. "Oh, you want to spend less, OK, then I take away the drop shadow."
Forms of "haggling" you might be more familiar with "does that include the delivery?", "how much is it if i pay cash?", or the old "if you buy today, i'll take of 5 percent."
Of COURSE you have the right to not deal with people you don't like... but why give up some perfectly good customers if all it takes is a little patience and some cultural sensitivity? for some cultures, the haggling is really just a pretense for getting to know one another. You already know Bubba from your church (or whatever) so you don't need to do that. But with other people, maybe you need to have a cup of coffee and spend some time.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
120 bucks for a logo!, for a company that will go national!?! First off they should be haggling the other way! It amazes me how cheap your design goes for, it amazes me even more that someone thinks it's too much!!! A design firm probably wouldn't touch it for less that 20k. I wonder if these guys were going shop to shop shopping for design. I personally hate haggling, thats probably why I bought a Scion (a funny looking little car made by Toyota) cultural difference? I agree with Scooter, everyone has a form of haggling, but some have made it an artform. I have gotten that bait tactic of give me a deal, I'll give you more work, I fell for it 3 times in my life, never again no matter what culture you are from!
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
I don't price things with the intention of getting talked down. I figure my costs and time and give a fair price. The price I give out is the price I expect to get. I have no patience for haggling.
If I visited another country, I would expect to participate in their way of culture. And likewise, when they are in my shop, I expect the same respect.
posted
I don't care if it's PC or not... if that is the way it is "done in their country" and they want to do it that way, they can go back to their country. You're in America now, deal with it. If you don't like how things are done here, you are free to leave. And if I don't like the way things are done in your country, I won't be going there.
I agree with feeling totally insulted that someone would attempt to walk into my shop & procede to tell me what my time & work is worth. I don't care what country they are from, anyone attempting to do that will have exactly 30 seconds to get their sorry a$$ off my property.
posted
Thanks for all the replies. As I mentioned, I use the 3 tier pricing method on signs, but it's really not applicable to design work. I have many good foreign customers and Mehmood was a referral from Mahli at the Christian Bookstore, a really fine lady who's more gracious with her negotiations. I knew pretty much what to expect going in, so there were no surprises. I had decided previously not to use the "Preacher's Discount" because it's come back to haunt me on other occasions. In these instances, I've found that an hourly rate accompanied by an explanation of what I provide seems to work best. They're able to determine how much of my services they're willing to buy, and I get paid for ALL my time.
Another prerequisite is a sense of humor - I have several one-liners I can toss out - "Sure, I'll do your logo for 50 bucks if you'll sell me that 10'x12' wool rug for 2 dollars". It puts a little perspective in the dialogue without insulting anyone.
I can appreciate the art of a good haggler, as long as it's done in an atmosphere of mutual respect. As Joe said earlier, rude is rude in any language.
Rick, sorry if $60 an hour seems too low. The initial $120 covers the first consultation and some sketches. Revisions and format conversions to a CD usually add another $150 - 200. For $60 an hour, I'll crank out designs all day long - sure beats digging holes and climbing ladders.
Suelynn - thanks for your support -we love you too.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
I recently had a letter send to me requesting a written bid for the nearby fairgrounds. The description of what they needed was every sign makers dream come true (ad sarcastic tone here)..."we need a 12' or 16' by 8' billboard sign."
No further information was added other than a date for all bids to be submitted by.
I found out that only two other sign companies were involved in the bidding and spoke with the owner of one of them. We both agreed that the lack of any direction was a problem and that meeting with the fair committee before going any further was in everyone's best interest. Despite both our efforts to meet with the proper people involved, it never happened.
I decided that spending a few hours designing ideas and working up the material quote was a complete and total waste of time without any kind of VALUABLE input from the fairgrounds comittee. There were just too many options to consider and I bowed out gracefully.
I've done written bids before, but seldom care to do them these days. Like you, I think it's a form of bartering by the customers. Despite better imaging and materials, they will most likely go with the lowest price. That's why they asked for bids in the first place.
I'm up to 4 cents now. Any higher bidders? Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Man, you've never did business until you've done business with a Patel! Talk about a sleazy, stinking, haggling SOB....!!!! Did a 3200.00 job for one and he wanted to pay it out at 50.00 a month....sheeeeeeeese!
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sonny, Different perspective I guess, not being in a sign shop for a while has warped my thinking we don't dig holes or climb latters here either, in fact none of us get our hands dirty, design all day long, and have no problem getting 20k logo projects or 200k signage projects. Whatever floats your boat, but why piddle with something like that, do the 60 buck an hour logos to your hearts content, but if it's a national project, you charge "national" prices, a design firm would, why not you. Not telling you how to do your business, just amazed at how low you think your talent and experience is worth.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rick, please tell me how to squeeze 20 grand out of Mehmood and his cohorts for a logo. I don't doubt that some companies pay that much, but what portion of that is for expensive martini lunches and golf outings? Do I need to schmooze Rashmi at the local country club? Keep in mind, I don't have a plush office, no conference table or multimedia displays, not even anyone to fetch coffee. As Chip Carter stated in his Sandcastle Jam seminar, image sells. I've cleaned up my act somewhat, but I just don't envision me joining the ranks of the 20k designers. On the other hand, I sure as hell don't want to leave $19,000+ laying on the table.
Given my circumstances, how would you have approached this job, and what would you charge? Do you have set prices or an hourly rate? Thanks very much for your input (and others) - this is what makes Letterville such a valuable resource.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Like I said different perspective, we do no martini lunches, no golf, no brown nose shmoozing. It's a business, that might be your perception, and in the early 80s that might have been the case, but it's not todays reality, and it's not Club Med, first of you need a presentation, you also need a portfolio, sales skills and an honest opinion of your skills and what design is worth. One way is to educate yourself, books like Ethical practices and Guidlines put out by G.A.G. and the other business practice book by AIGA descibes the process, pricing, copyright and other legal issues. You can open the book, show your potential client what "real design" cost. Another good book is by David Carter called "Corporate Identity Manuals" that describes presentaion and implementation of Identity. another good book is " Designing Brand Identity" by Alina Wheeler. Like when Pat King who brought up the SignCraft articles, there is a lot to learn for anyone getting into higher end work. Dan Antonelli has some great articles, one you can download from the Signcraft magazine. I work for a design firm and I freelance, I use the GAG book for my pricing and it relates to the size of the company, not just an hourly rate, the most I have made is 15k for a cosmetic company (I'll be honest here and say that experience was horrible) but for a small company averaging 100-200k I charge around 3k. Like anything they will find it cheaper, I sell them on a unique design and my experience. My boss basically does the same. It is not impossible, you have just never experienced it, these guys will take your 120 logo, do a million a year, and all you have to show is 120 bucks, a high end identity is worth something. Maybe I'm talking out of my butt here but why do so many sign guys under charge? We don't do much more that you would do. I must admit that image is something, but if you have met some of the snot designers I have, I am sure it would be refreshing to deal with a down home level headed designer like yourself. I don't wear black all the time, or use big words. But what I do have is the ability to convey to a client that image is very important, and if they don't want to pay, I don't sweat it. If I'm hungry I'll compromise, but I won't if the client does not appreciate the value of my service, because they will never appreciate it and dump you later for a cheaper designer. A lot of people here complain of the loss of work because somebody doing vinyl out of thier garage, it's the same principle here. If you give your work away your hurting the industry, yourself and the abilty to get more money. A good start is when you gat a guy with a national company you throw out a big number, in your case 5K, haggle from there, you sure can't haggle with 120 bucks thrown out automatically, can you? I understand your reasoning that at least your always working, even if it's 60 bucks at a time, and if your happy with that, I think thats cool, but when I see proposals at work in 6 figures, I see the potential. Maybe if you read up on it, you can to. By the way, I hope the tone is not taken wrong here, hard to tell my expression when your just reading this. But I know that plenty here have a great potential, and it gets wasted because with just a little more effort, they can really make a decent living and have a great time doing it.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have one very good customer who loves to 'negotiate'. My tactic is simple.
I go into the meeting with two sealed envelopes. One is my firm price to do the job. The other contains a price to start negotiations from. I lay both sealed envelopes on the table and give them the choice.
They invariably want to negotiate. So one envelope goes back into my pocket and the games begin.
They try to get their best price and I try to get mine.
In the end we have a deal we can both live with. My challenge is to come up with a deal that exeeds the price in the first envelope and pays me well for negotiating time. I've never failed yet.
As we leave the meeting, the other party always wants to see what the 'other' non-negotiated price was. But the deal is they only get to look into ONE envelope which they chose at the start. How much money was left on the table is only for me to know...
It's a fun game and I'll play any day!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sonny, this is a Great Topic. My hat is off to You and Rick for keeping your discussion just that...a DISCUSSION. Not an argument, which alot of times posts on this board go WAY over the deep end..(Some of those folks should take lessons from this informative, and helpfull discussion!) Scooter is right on the money....and I agree, totally. I have dealt with some Somalian's here in the Rochester Minnesota Area. They did the same haggle thing to me. I pleasently smiled and said, no, this is what it costs. They went ahead with it. When I put the sign up, (It was for a Meat Market/Conv.Store) the crowd of Somalie's loudly playing Dominoes ran out back of the building to look at the sign I had just put up......The native tongue they were shouting turned from friendly to HOSTILE! I wondered what the hell was going on! As the owner gave me my check, he stopped of ra second to listen to the crowd shouting to him and they were pointing to the rear entrance and pointing at me! Ohoh....Here I had put silouette graphics on the sign depicting a Cow, Sheep, Chicken,Fish, and a PIG.
The freaking out was the fact that they religously worship PIGS and no way would they even think about eating one! I had to paint out the pig. Then I got my check. I must admit that while this was happening, I felt a bit like "Black Hawk Down!" They simmered down, I got my check, the dominoes resumed and Porky Pig remains the National symbol ...I guess. They have since be evicted, and they are in court and in the paper fighting this and that. I'm sure it's tough, but if I were in a strange country, I know the first thing I do is to abide by that countries laws. I guess the mind set of some of these people is different when entering the good ole United States aka "the Melting Pot."
Ain't it fun?
Thanks Sonny and Rick for having a civilized "Discussion!" The Bullboard needs more of this. Now, can we get down to REAL sign stuff, like Squirrel Poop.............
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
Haggling is fun, in fact dealing with cash only can limit your perspective in some cases. I'm not saying you should nod and bow to whatever proposition is offered, and nor should you put yourself in a position where you are in effect buying the job but... My experience has been that a lot (not all) non-anglo customers will show considerable loyalty once you have established a comfortable working relationship. Try getting that from your local small business that has to supply 3 quotes before giving the go ahead on a $500.00 job because of their QA procedures. No I am not talking about being the lowest quote, just the one that they remember. I have a couple of Sri Lankan brothers on my books, I'd go well out of my way to keep them there just keep being invited to their family BBQ's, you have to eat there to understand it. There are many ways to doing business, its a damn sight more fun to enjoy the process than to live for the next sale. Having said that. Make sure that you're at least getting a fair price. Unless you get a counter-offer that works in your favour. If it comes down to "Their Country" vs "My Country", forget it, you've already lost it. David
[ October 04, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: David Fisher ]
-------------------- David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Services Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com Trying out a new tag: "Parents are the bones on which children cut their teeth Peter Ustinov Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mike, I agree, and I want to thank Sonny. My comments could be taken wrong, but he is one cool guy. I hope I never offend, I know it happens, but it's nice to have a differing opinion and still come out respecting each other. A lot has happened on this board, and it's hard watching on the sidelines as some hear hurt each other, and it shouldn't happen, we have some really great people here, I guess we should all be allowed to be human, and let it go.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
If I said on the BB what you said about "behavior" in some posts I would have been nailed to the cross by now.
Congratulations on finding just the right words to not **** anybody off (yet).
Sonny, good topic. I like all the responses. No signs of racial bias in any. What a wonderful community of artists.
Bill Diaz, very clever 'psychology'. I like it!!
Dan Sawatzky - it's obvious you're as much fun to do business with as the projects you do and attitude you possess. I really admire your style.
We send the price shoppers (regardless of accent or nationality) to the sign shop that said something bad about us to one of our customers. They get the hassle - not us. It's mostly immigrants that haggle - but not all. They have to start somewhere to make it here - God bless 'em for being so brave to leave their native countries and start here like many of our ancestors did. That takes courage.
But that isn't who we market ourselves towards so just like they won't shop at Saks, they don't often call on us. We try hard to cater to higher end clientele - which ultimately has led to a reputation of being "great work but expensive". I guess I don't mind that.
[ October 04, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I have a few hagglers. Most of the time I explain that if a Texan tells you something, a price for instance, he means it. To question it is an insult by insinuating he is a lair. [meaningful look] At 6'2" and 320#'s not many people want to insult yours truly. As an out, I always offer the deals Doug mentioned. [engagin' smile] Most of the time I come out with a sale.
One thing I have learned. NEVER EVER BARTER with these guys. I had one that did business with for years. Had him assemble a computer. Runs great, never had one problem with it. Bartered a second computer 9 months later. I spent two months tryin' to get that POS to run. I am pretty sure he took every discarded part from the back of his shop to build that POS. Things got somewhat less than cordial when I returned the thing and got money instead of crap.
I also cut him loose. He still can't believe I won't work for him.
posted
Again, thanks for all the responses. Apparently, we've struck a chord here and like Mike said, it's nice that it hasn't gone off into racial or personal diatribes.
Rick, I got on Amazon last night and ordered some books on branding and corporate identity. Thanks for your suggestions. As I get older and more experienced, and with digital printing coming of age, I see design as an ever-increasing part of my future. My formal training in this field,, however, consists of 2 semesters of Advertising Design classes in college and a summer job in a sign shop. My first business partner was an architecture student who gave me lots of pointers on design and presentation, but since then, I've just been winging it.I would guess that the majority of us are in the same boat. With our entrepreneurial bravado, most of us will tackle anything if we can see it demonstrated first. That's why Letterhead meets are so effective.
As a matter of fact, a meet seminar, workgroup, or even an article in one of the sign mags would be very helpful toward showing us exactly what a professional presentation looks like, and how to get the big bucks for it. I noticed that the best-attended seminar at Sandcastle Jam was Chip Carter's "how to make money in the sign biz". Recently, Dan showed me a really nice prospectus in Nanaimo of another golf course he's working on and said the design package alone was 25k. The money's out there, I just need 2 things to go get it: 1. A how-to demo 2.A kick in the ass. If you can help on the first one, I'll take care of the rest.
Rick, you seem uniquely qualified here in Letterville to share your knowledge in this facet of the biz, and I'm sure there's lots of others eager for you to show us the ropes. If you have the time and inclination, I'm ALL EARS. You might want to spinoff a different thread, so it doesn't get lost in the haggling topic. Thanks again for sharing your expertise.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[FYI]](graemlins/fyi.gif)
Guess thier mamas never told them...they
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic