posted
I did a job about a year ago that I think is cursed. Its some 1/2" PVC letters (about 10" high, each) glued to some 1/2" x 2" acryllic spacer blocks, glued to a painted Dibond panel. When I finished the first sign there was a problem with the "VHB" tape peeling off the back of the Dibond. (it peeled off completely, not just bits). Then the 100% silicone holding some of the letters seemed to have trouble holding the letters. On the second sign, I sanded the spacer blocks, tripple cleaned everything, and used a combination of quick setting glue and small bits of VHB to hold things in place until the glue cured.
Well, today I get a call that another letter has popped off. ARGH. I'm just hoping it wasn't so badly damaged that I can't fix it in the field.
Not only is it a waste of my time to have to go out there to re-do something, I don't feel like I've learned how to do it better. The only thing I've learned is not to trust adhesives -- they don't seem to do what they claim. I use only the name brands (not the off brand "specials"), I follow the instructions on the tubes, and I get advice before I begin.
Worst of all is that this customer must think i'm a complete dolt or that I ripped her off.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I do not know why that happened, not really my area, but the fact you are going to try and fix it should re-assure the customer you stand behind your work ;-)
MC
-------------------- Mike Clayton M C Grafix Custom Lettering New Jersey (again) Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
did the paint surface peel and let the glued part fall off?
can u drill thru the diebond and screw or dowel the letters back on?
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
scooter....i've been making signs since "74"...started in santa cruz doing only hand carved work......now my work is such that i seem to do something different on each new piece...joining different kinds of materials together...glass to glass, glass to metal, wood to pvc to metal, hdu to pvc to metal (this my favorite combo at this time)........and on and on and no...........how i have prayed that somebody would come up with the "universal adhesive" that would bond this to that......period !!...haahaha...sorry i can't help in your solution, but i do feel your pain !!vance
posted
I know you feel confident about what or how you cleaned prior to adhesion, but I still must ask?
Many people don't realise what can take place when cleaning, some products penetrate and out gass solvent fumes later (breaking down composition of bond) others can leave nasty residues that actually deteriorate adhesive bond, and so on...
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Hi I'm Monte Jumper and I'm a recovering adhesiv-holic...there I said it...only there's no fear of me falling off the wagon.
I learned a long time ago that adhesives are just a temporary solution to a long term problem.
Give them up and learn to mount things with hardware...it's fun to develope and create ways to fasten things invisibly.
I make a lot of keyhole mounts for letters and sign panels...stud mounts ...even velcro on some interior things...but never use any adhesive without some sort of a physical fastner.
All adhesives are spelled DOOM it's not a matter of will it fail but when will it fail.
Sorry yer havin trouble but take the time to work out a solid fastner and this problem will go away and stay away.
"Werks fer me it'll werk for you"
[ October 01, 2003, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
PVC and acrylic both require their own adhesives.
Nothing sticks to PVC 'cept another piece of PVC joined to it using PVC weld solvent. The solvent facilitates a chemical bond between the two.
Acrylics are much the same way, and in addition is that silicone and acrylic usually have some form of reaction when in contact - normally it just makes clear acrylic cloud up. I don't know what the reaction actually is but it's possible that could affect the bond strength too - the reason I know this is from working with skyscrapers where architects for some reason or other want to use plex or polycarb in certain features.
Mechanical fasteners are OK but there are times they are not possible, and there's nothing wrong with using adhesives if you know your compatibilities and limitations ahead of time. Imagine a 1200lb triple laminated sheet of glass (read, 3 pieces of glass 1/2" thick) being secured to an aluminum window frame with only a 1/2" wide strip of silicone - it works, and it's warranteed against failure for 20 years.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Bulldog Construction Adhesive will work wonders, I've used this adhesive on many jobs, using many combinations, pvc to dibond, dibond to wood, you name it, I've glued pvc blocks to dibond signs and attatched anchors and set into concrete walls with no failures ever with falling letters or signs. it's worth a try, just be sure to let the glue set long enough, and to follow instructions.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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If we're talking about 3M "VHB" there is little doubt in my mind that the adhesion failure you encountered was NOT product failure.
There are some good insights above...
Roger is absolutely right about properly cleaning/prepping substrates...and his Rapid Prep product is really fantastic.
Mike is also quite correct to point out that different substrates can require different adhesives...but not always.
"VHB" is a 3M brand...a whole line of different products for different applications...not just one generic, "multi-purpose" product. Choosing the right product for the application is critical. 3M have some fantastic reading on this subject and a helpline: 1 800 3M HELPS...give them a call.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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So many factors here are setting this up for failure- Mike is dead on re special requirements of pvc, necessary because of its ridiculous expansion rate compared to nearly all other sign matls-- will break the bond to the acrylic pretty quick with your climate, Scooter.
About the only way I mount routed pvc letters is a stud mount method using 2" deck screws into the back of the letter and clip the heads off with a bolt cutter. Pattern, drill and silicon as usual.
-------------------- Jay Nichols ALPHABET SOUP
~the large print giveth and the small print taketh away~ Posts: 176 | From: SW Florida | Registered: Mar 2002
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Thanks for the support and feedback. Mostly, I just feel burned, and worse, I'm sure my customer feels that I'm an idiot. I repaired the sign today, but I don't think I'll repair that relationship.
The letter came cleanly off the sign -- it didn't even look like there was any glue on the spacer or the back of the letter. one of the spacers (acrylic square rod stock) was still stuck on the sign face. The silicone adhesive blobs were still on the sign face. The acrylic spacer just didn't want to stick to the silicone and the PVC didn't want to stick to the spacers.
I gave a wiggle/tug to all the other letters and they _feel_ ok. (none of them popped off in my hand at least.) I dunno. Maybe that one didn't get cleaned properly (my assistant isn't quite as fussy as I am) or maybe the letter got hit by a tennis ball or something and that caused it to pop off.
From now on I'm drilling and bolting. I just can't TRUST the adhesives for anything more than temporary.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I never use silicone, unless I think I might want to remove it someday. Even the best 100% silicone doesn't stick well to some surfaces. I use Lexel. The only drawback is if you ever want to remove the letters you can't.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1078 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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....Scooter, don't worry too much about the customer. Just call her up an' sincerely explain to her that you tried somethin' that was supposed to be on the "cutting edge" of the industry and your so displeased with it your never gonna use it again an' your SO sorry you had to discover this problem on HER sign and your gonna do WHATEVER it takes to make it right, and you know, stuff like that...be condescending towards yourself. I always say, if you MUST be condescending, beat others to the punch, lol, apply it to the face in the mirror first.
Actually, Scooter, customers only think service people are dum jerks when they ignore the problem or make excuses, neither of which you are doing...just let'er kno' that. Everybody makes mistakes, but not everyone'll fix 'em.
Put yourself in the customers shoes....if you go to a mechanic and he messes up yer truck, but tells you all about it and then he makes it right or even better, AND does'nt charge you for it, would'nt you trust him in the future? Would'nt you appreciate his honest business ethics?
When people see that you will do the right thing, they will trust you with all their signs, even if they could get someone else faster or even cheaper, they will hold out for someone they can trust. This is a perfect opportunity (as is every job) to show that you can be trusted even when a job goes sour. She'll probably be one of your best customers and references in the future.....
WHAT SHE WON"T SAY: "Don't call him! That jerk screwed up my sign...I'm gettin' someone else next time....".
WHAT SHE WILL SAY: "Well, he had some problems with somethin' but you'll never believe it! He came out and fixed it and did'nt even try to pump me for more money!! I'm sure I'll call him next time because if anything happens, I KNOW he'll make it right......"
Have a great business, Scooter!!!!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Scooter, unless you told her to buzz off I wouldn't worry about what she thinks. If she's just the hot-tempered type, well you could make her a whole new sign and put a thousand bucks cash in her pocket and she still wouldn't be happy. You'd be surprised if you knew how little she thought about you - meaning she's probably NOT thinking anything at all! Don't beat yourself up about it.. you fixed the problem, she has nothing to complain about.
Don't give up on adhesives though, just do some research and find adhesives that are more suited for the purpose.
People that complain about silicones are the ones buying theirs from Wal Mart or Home Depot. If you use Construction or Industrial adhesives those are in a whole other realm. Even so you still need to check surface compatibilities and prep/cleaning processes.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I clean everything with alcohol and or RapidPrep. Sometimes I'll use DuPonts dewax and degreaser. It was a year ago, so i don't remember what i used.
what i do know is that the point of failure was at the acryllic. maybe i'll just avoid bonding acryllic to anything but acryllic in the future.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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