We are ready to buy a 3 axis router, but are very reluctant to spend $8000 for a 3D software.
We need to decide what software(s) we are going to use, to work the router and software into one lease payment. (FYI: Multicam A series $29,900 3 phase with vacuum hold down) Adding ArtCam to the package rockets the lease payments into outer space! ($8000)
To create great looking routed 3D signs, what do you use? Why? Do some software companies provide 3D clipart ready to go? Or do you just take clipart and "pull" it up into 3d?
Then, there is a way to take a photograph and pull it into 3D using the shadows and contrasts to create depth. So is this yet another software that needs to be purchased?
If someone could elaborate on the process of preparing a 3D file ready for routing, and if you need a couple differnt software programs, or is one sufficient?
Lots of questions, some of which I don't even know how to ask!
posted
I havent even used ArtCAM but that's the one I would suggest because it's designed for artistic creation, while the others are for Mechanical Design. $8,000 is cheap for *good* CAM software.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Dave with a router and what it can produce 8G for a top notch software package is a small investment. Just like Signs Dave you get what you pay for. Now where is that dude from pittsburg NH that claims he bought Art cam for 4G?? maybe he can tell you his secret.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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first i can say this..sh!t in is sh!t out...you can buy artcam pro but if you don't have the time, desire and skill to become proficient in learning it then you've wasted your money. if you are going to be puking out profile cuts and doing v carves(which is alot of signs anyway)then the 3d part of the software isn't going to be helping you much. start with insignia and upgrade to the pro when you've mastered the basics...you have a tremedous amount of things to learn. you will have enough to think about just getting familiar with how far you can push your feedrates with certain materials, finding bits that work best..etc...can't even begin to tell ya the learning curve you have ahead of you. become an information sponge and keep good notes! oh and try to have fun!
[ September 21, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Dave, I think the learning curve is less with these All kidding aside though. We have a relatively inexpensive program called Autocarve from Gerber. It does a great job on prismatic and 'v' carving jobs. It's easy to learn the basics and allows you lots of creative freedom. Unless you're creating moulds, prototypes, etc. with unlimited $ budgets, I don't think the cost of 3d software, the learning time commitment and frustration is worth it...Not for me anyway. Cheers,
posted
Dave When running a 3D job it takes a lot longer to run than V carving, there are 3D objects that are available if you do a search some are free and some are expensive. Turbosquid.com and 3dcafe.com are a couple of web sites that I can think of. I agree with Karyn about the learning curve.
-------------------- Dennis Raap Raap Signs Posts: 840 | From: Coopersville, MI | Registered: Feb 2003
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Dave, Please let us know what you decide. A router is one thing I always wanted to add when I had my shop.
I looked, and looked unfortunately for your question today, I mostly just looked at the routers themselves. I never got too far into the software question. Mainly because the ones I were really interested in were from Gerber, and the rep bundled it with Arycam.
Come to think of it they are not too far from you, I can find their info I you want, just let me know.
Best of Luck, My Friend Troy
-------------------- Troy "Metalleg" Haas 626 Kingswood Dr Evansville,In 47715 Posts: 1100 | From: Evansville,Indiana, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here is what I've learned, and most of the confusion for me is gone. So anybody stuck in the reasearch mode concerning routers, like me, here is my insight:
For 3D routing:
1. You need a 3 axis router, and there are 4 and 5 axis routers. Some routers travel only 4 inches up and down (z axis), some travel way more. A 3 axis (x, y, and z movement)router can only do so much in the 3D realm as it simply can not cut sideways. But, you can cut parts and glue them together to achieve the full 3D. A 5 axis router can cut sideways. Some routers are way overkill for sign shop use. They have heavy duty servo motors for milling thick hardwoods all day long...sign shops do not need this unless cutting 1" or thicker acrylics all day long.
2. Then you need CAM software. They make a 2D and 3D or both in one package. This is also called a toolpath software. It gives instructions to the router how to cut the design created in #3, read on:
3. You also need a CAD program to produce 2D or 3D models. You already have 2D software if you own a vinyl plotter. Vinyl is 2D, very thin 2D, but 2D just the same. And a router will cut vinyl or thicker stuff. For 3D, you need 3D modeling software.
Lets recap: 2D CAD software + 2D CAM software + router = a substrate cut up into a sellable product.
3D CAD software + 3D CAM software + router = a thick subtrate that has multi-levels of contour, like a front view of your face.
NOW....we all want to do 2D and 3D work and make tons of money, right? But so do the companies that sell the routers, and the CAM and the CAD software.
ArtCam offers it all: 2D and 3D CAD and CAM in one tidy package for a breathtaking price for us 1 man shops.
Are their other programs? Yes! Do they work well and do all the kewl stuff and cost less? I don't know .... yet.
Ram 3D CAM coupled with Rhino 3D CAD costs considerably less. ( under $1800 to buy both) and it gets better... if you have student in the family that can buy Rhino 3D for a student discount break and then buy RAM 3D separately you save a great deal.
Now, do they work? Don't know. Do you get what you pay for? Is this "Crap in Crap out?" Don't know!
We need to hear from some RAM 3D / Rhino 3D users to form an opinion.
So this is what we have found out so far in our research and pass it along to any who want to check out their options and calculate the costs of the whole system.
[ September 22, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
If you go with Rhino 3D or any of the other MECHANICAL CAD/CAM Design packages, you'll wish you hadn't, expecially when it comes to the budget programs.
These programs are designed for producing precision, not art and are not user friendly by any means. Mechanical parts are easy to model, artistic and organic shapes are NOT.
Will they work? Yes.
Can you make a sign like this? Yes.
Could you 3D route it faster than carving by hand? Most likely no, not by the time you model it exactly how you want it, then wait a few hours for it to be cut.. unless you had duplicates.
Just a voice of experience here Dave.. I've used BobCAD (was even a dealer), used Rhino, fairly adept with Intergraphics/Microstation, I'm a certified instructor for AutoCAD/Mechanical Desktop/Inventor/Architectural Desktop/3D Studio VIS, profficient with Pro Engineer, CATIA, and Unigraphics (which is why I say $8,000 is cheap for a seat of *good* 3D stoftware). I'm also an old pro with 3D Studio MAX. Not only have I done extensive 3D modeling with many CAD packages, I've written programs to drive CNC machinery to cut 3D negative molds for things like fiberglass, injection molding machines and presses that stamp out parts like crazy, not to mention 2.5D steel dies for extruding various materials. All this was involved in the Architectural Engineering place I was at!
The only time I would use 3D CNC now is if the part requires absolute precision and I know I couldn't build it by hand faster.
In most cases you'll spend more time trying to figure out HOW to draw the object on screen in 3D than it would take you to glue up some stock and take a set of knives, files, rasps and sandpaper to it.
There is one program I haven't gotten to explore very deeply though, which could do what you need and with a relatively low learning curve. I'm not sure of the cost (I think it's going to be past ArtCAM's price) but the software is called SurfCAM. If I were close to the manufacturing end of things like I was before, I'd really be putting my efforts into SurfCAM because I've seen old dogs pick up this new trick in a relatively short timeframe.
posted
We have Artcam and Mastercam and profilelab/signlab. Large fromat overhead routers are not ideal for highly detailed precision engraving , no matter how accurate. In reality , engraving speeds are really low due to inertia issues unless you use a dedicated lightweight engraving head. We do do moulds and the like , but a machine like a HAAS minimill is far better suited. Carving 3d signage with a large router sounds delicious but programming it and watching a 15 hour job is not. We use our 4x8 Tekcel almost on a continual basis cutting brass backs for badges and keytags , cutting large letter in various materials for other sign guys and do a ton of woodwork on it (trophy bases , promotional items etc) and would never have bought artcam for this specifically (we run various other CnC machinery) Using artcam to make a 15cm x 20 cm x 5mm deep mould into Perspex , with a very fine stepover (totally smooth) took about 20 hours of running!!!! At the end of it all , 3d signage , if you want any semblance of speed , does not come off the machine "ready to go" - there is still a lot of finishing work required to get smoothness etc
I would use something like profile lab at first - till you get to grips with the machine capability , speed feeds , materials , bits etc and then see if your market is 3d oriented and take it from there. Artcam *is* the best choice for 3d signage apps , cos you can work from 2d bitmaps or photos as you want - but you can also do this , albeit not as sophistacted from signlab (which will also run other machines you might have , like cutters , digital printers , lasers etc) At the end of it all , a large format router is a very expensive solution for small run jobs or one offs , it really comes into it's own on big repeat runs If the machine you buy has the capability to upgrade to a toolchanger - I would not pay for one initially either - save the money till you see where you are going.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Speaking of time issues in routing 3D, and as mentioned above, watching a 15 hour job cut is not fun: let me climb out on a limb at the risk of someone sawing off the branch.
Lets say you hand carve a sign, and it takes 15 hours to produce. And you have two carved signs to make for a housing subdivision. Thats 30 hours before paint and install. It also turns into 50 hours when you have to stop and deal with customers and phone calls.
The router can run all night long while you sleep, right? A power outage might be the biggest fear. And if that router is making X amount of $$$ per hour running, so you could be working on a lettering up a box truck or a van, wouldn't you be money ahead?
I don't see the time issues of routing the same as some folks, as I like to get everything running and go on to other tasks.
I will have to admit as I research this, there are many more items to be routed in 2D with very little effort or thinking and good money to be made, compared to the artsy fartsy 3D which is more complex to think up and find the right markets who have deeper $$$ pockets.
The other conflict that nags back is to try to hit that niche that is profitable and one that only a few others have had the fortitude to persue, thus making us unique.
posted
Dave, you are absolutely correct that one of the joys of routers and printers is that they free you to do other things while the machinery runs.
You do not need true 3D to produce Dimensional images. On a 2D machine, you can design in layers, rout the layers in 2D, then glue up and do a little hand finishing.
This image was created and routed 2D
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Dave, yes the machinery allows you to go on to other jobs, but what happens when you spend 10 hours at the computer modeling even a basic 3D model, load up a $1,000 blank of HDU, then let the router rip into this job while *hoping* that it's not going to make a wrong cut (hey, it happens with CNC on occassion).. and in the event it does make a wrong cut, you're out the cost of the HDU.. and you could have carved it by hand in 3 hours because you can hog out much more material in less time than a router with a 1/2" bit.
I'm not trying to steer you away from 3D, it's the bitchinest thing on the planet, I know, been there done that, watched my own creations being cut on CNC from giant ingots of steel! I'm just trying to let you know, true 3D is NOT cheap, and if you want to do it right, inexpensive software is not the way about it.
It just sounds to me like you dont mind spending a ton on the equipment, but then you want to turn around and cheap out on the software.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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