posted
Its sort of funny - I post more here when I'm busy than when biz is slow (mostly because I'm stuck in the shop waiting for one thing to dry before I can move onto the next).
I finsihed a banner the other day, and did it all in paint. I guess it would have been faster to do it with vinyl, but the effect wouldn't have been the same. Mostly though, I jjust don't enjoy applying vinyl very much. I'm getting better at it, and I enjoy pretty much everything about signs, but the satisfaction of laying down a sheet of vinyl just doesn't last very long. I guess I see the pile of tape and paper and scrap filling the trash and ...
I admit that I couldn't be in business today if I didn't have the capacity to cut vinyl lettering -- my painting skills are nowhere near "Journeyman" level.
I'm not really sure if I would be making more money or not if I only did vinyl work. I probably spend more TIME applying paint, but the time seems to be more enjoyable. I also spend less MONEY on paint than on vinyl - a pint of paint ($15) will do an awful lot of signs.
i guess if i had a larger shop, or did a larger volume of work, i'd probably have more colors of vinyl in stock and so decisions would be easier to make. for me, as a one guy shop puttering along, i've got 36 colors of paint on two shelves and pretty much cover the bases. The 24 rolls of winyl always seem to be the wrong ones. (Oh, I needed economy grade pale blue for that banner, but i've only got it in HP... I need 24" wide white, but only have the 15" roll left in matte)
just some musings.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
You would probably enjoy those vinyl application more if you were using Rapid Tac products, nothing like working 1/2 a day and having the rest of the day to do what you wish !!
Roger (just musing)
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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During you drying times, grab a brush and try freehanding your name, "Mom & Dad", some letters you struggle with, etc. and play around a bit. Always a good time to practice.
Have fun! Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
with all due respect for paint, painted signs, the pleasure & passion so many feel for painting... you will probably have more demand for vinyl as the years go on.
As far as the enjoyment factor, as business grows you will grow to make more money faster & therefore either get more work out, get more free time, or both, so the future holds lots more time for enjoyment painting or whatever.
So IMHO get more vinyl colors, use HP where cast will do, if thats what you have, tile two 15" pcs. if you don't have that color in 24". Offer clients any color from the charts, charge enough, then buy more then enough for the job.
If you can get customer satisfaction quickly & easily with vinyl, save the enjoyment of painting for where it will do the most good, like jobs that call for it & perceive the higher value that skill should command, or painting awnings already installed, or painting for your own betterment.
If the lower cost of paint really pays for the extra time to paint it, but you sell it for the same price, the number of hours in the day will shortchange your potential in the end. (Bob's point I think)
posted
Just keep your machine for small thing that's gonna save you $$ but for big banner ,no machine is now able to beat us ....i'm sure that for a 40 by 10 ft i,ll beat it twice ..so keep going with youy brushes....
-------------------- Steven Girard steven@lettragesgirard.com
posted
I was looking at this year's "Signs of the Times" sales and financials surveys last issue. It seems that most sign shops are spending more than ever on equipment (under the "all other costs" section of the overhead) and that profit levels are at an all time low. My analysis is that more shops are buying digital printing equipment and that the profit margins on those printers are lower than the profits on older sign production technology.
Printers and photocopy shops now offer digital banners, etc. This forces sign makers to compete - when providing digital signage - with those businesses.
My hope when I got into sign making was, and still is, that I can carve out a niche for myself in hand-made, painted signs. I don't think that this is good advice for other people to follow, I just know that there is a small niche with less and less competition. I'm experimenting to see what products and services I can offer, and which ones give me a leg up over other sign providers in my market.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
iam a painter 1st, vinyl guy 2nd. as for time vs money....with a fast "knockout brush" letter and a 2 or 3 foot tall banner 8,10 12 feet long. i can make more money and spend less time doing the job(not counting drying time)in paint then any vinyl person could do it. for a one off, banner, window,wall etc....paint for me is faster and makes me more money because i can paint quickly. now if i need two 32" x 48" showcards and they both need to look identical....vinyl cant be beat...as for time spent. old snappers used to do 2 truck doors, freehand layout, no pounce pattern multi color...for $100 and they would have maybe....2 hours....at the job and $2 woth of paint!!!!!! now that was PROFIT!!!! the one today doin the same job in vinyl for $50....are maybe makin $20 of that as profit.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
guy was picking up a 4x8 sign & I mentioned his layout would make a good truck sign... simple 2 color layout $100/pair so he said yes. Spit it out the edge (which paid for itself long ago)blue ink on yellow vinyl: $4 in material/less then an hours work counting sales, invoice etc.
posted
We have a 15" Gerber plotter and seldom need anything bigger...for the most part we paint everything over 8" to 12" (mask cut and roll) or hand letter detailed work.th economics just aren't there over 12 "...made a lot of money this way & and seldom have random scrap.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Monte, do you handcut your masks? If you use them in large situations instead of vinyl, I am assuming that the masks are also not done on the computer for that reason also?
The post invokes my curiosity due to the fact that I am embarking on a few projects that may be conducive to tiling if they have many, many pieces to the logos, and will require three piece tiling. Of course I may just use the projector and whip out the brush on those, instead. This may be because of another reason, besides time and money, which would be factors also, of course.
When you do cut tiling or vinyl on your signs, does your tiling work when it is in three pieces? Several times I had a couple situations where I did three parts and they didn't match up. Even the two tiers sometimes fall short of lining up, and I just connect a couple letters at a time.
Could it be my Gerber G.A.? Or is this common to all software when using a small plotter that require tiling. I just don't remember it not lining up years back. All in all, I am also still curious if you handcut or machine cut your masks if they are large.
[ September 20, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
With my hat off to those who are truely letterheads in the sense that they still hand letter, let me say that we do a lot of vinyl and many many time tile graphics. We have a 15" Gerber HS-15 and an Edge II. We do a lot of large banners and large sandblasted HDU. Anything over 12 1/2 in vinyl or 11 3/4 on the Edge we cut panels. We have tiled 4 or 5 panels high and wide with no problem. Takes some practice but it can be done. We use both GA 6.2 and Omega.
posted
Hiya Scoot, I didn't read the article you referred to but I'll guess that a lot of shops are buying now because interest rates are low and the tax write-offs are good. If you plan on being around for a while, now is the time to invest in your business. Naturally, check with your accountant first.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I sell both vinyl and paint, so I think I can be resonably unbiased. My rule is, use paint only when you have to. Of course, now to define "have to". Most things that are going to be repainted should be done in vinyl. Two that come to mind are billboards and railroad equipment. Having to grind, sand, and strip through multiple layers of paint and vinyl is no fun, and the cost gets passed on to the customer. Multiple layers of paint are alot less hassle, think about the next guy, it might be you. Newer trucks and vans are a little different, as most people don't keep them as long as they did before, and reasonably fresh vinyl is easier to remove than paint.
I just did a wall job on a barn type structure, would have been imposible in vinyl.
Most of the people here advocating paint probably started when there were no computers, as I did. It's my opinion that if you learn sign painting the old way, (all typefaces) you'll be a better designer, because of the intimate knowledge of LETTER CONSTRUCTION. At least be able to draw out the letter forms with a pencil. If you're not already familiar with this, you'll be surprised at how many optical illusions are employed and how many rules there are. That and Mike Stevens book, you'll feel like a master.
The dividing line for me is about 4' x 4'. Above that I can make money with paint, so long as I'm not distracted, tired from working odd shifts, etc. Computers don't have "off days". This could be the start of a flame fest, but you fellow paint people KNOW it takes concentration to render a painted sign. If there's 50 steps, having steps 8 thru 50 perfect does you no good if step # 7 is off. Y'all be knowin' what I mean!
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: My hope when I got into sign making was, and still is, that I can carve out a niche for myself in hand-made, painted signs
I'd say try to carve a niche with WELL DESIGNED signs instead. Whether 100% is vinyl, or not isn't as much of an issue these days- a lot of customers aren't as shy of vinyl as they once were. We try to do a bit of both (paint & also vinyl) in every sign, where we can, even if it's just a blended backgound on a banner, before vinyl lettering goes on. Think a lot about the DESIGN, and try to come up with something that doesn't look vinyl-ey, even if it is actually all vinyl. Getting into the computer-all arial bold type layouts when we're sleepy- is a rut that's easy to fall into. Getting into a creative mood is a different kettle of fish, and you'll find the signs are satisfying in spite of the piles of rubbish left over! A happy customer is also very satisfying- probably one of the ultimate highs in signwriting. Best wishes
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Hi Scoot, Been slinging paint for almost 25 years but just broke down last year and got into the vinyl. I have a 24" cutter. I still stock only black, white, red and royal blue vinyl. The only time I buy another color is if there's enough money in the job to warrant it.
Otherwise, I'll still use paint if the job calls for some custom colors - either hand-lettered or I'll computer-cut a mask.
Or I'll use the computer to make a full-size paper pattern which I then pounce, and use that to paint with.
That cabinet full of $15 cans of paint goes a long way, and yields more colors, than a wall full of vinyl rolls in colors I'll rarely use.
posted
Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. As I said, its only musings. There is no right answer for me, but its nice to be able to explore the issues.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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