posted
A local New company have just started about a year ago and the very first example on their website is a photo of a vehicle that I designed and produced, they have managed to wrangle this customer of mine away, not what you know is who you know, type of deal. So in essence they are a customer of theirs, but this is my design and production, is this Plagiarism?
[ September 15, 2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes it is, if they were your customer, and then you lost them, they should at least mention you as the designer, this happens to us all the time, we design it, it goes on a sign shop website or magazine article with no mention of us. You should always have in your agreement that you soley own the right to market thier design. We have sent cease and desist letters and they usually comply with adding our name to it. Maybe you can send a nice letter to them that out of professional courtesy, they can do the same, otherwise not much you can do.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
If it is a truck that you physically did, you have a case. They misrepresented themselves as the installer of the graphics. If, however, they merly copied your design that was paid for and owned by them, then it could be viewed as unprofessional, but not wrong.
All of us have gotten customers the same way. Our friend or relative is suddenly in a position to shift work our way. Many times we are called on to copy the existing format until we can sell them a design that we prefer and can call our own.
I am not a fan of copywrite. But, if a competitor used work we physically did on their website or portfolio as an example of their work, I'd have issues with that. You are in a moment of truth. How you handle it will get back to your customer...you can count on it! A letter professional in appearance is the best route. After that, let it go and consider the source.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Send them a nice email complimenting them on their site. Mention that you put a link on your site to the page and thank them for advertising the fact you do design work an sub for them. Tell them you would be happy to do more designs for them to get their portfolio up to speed.
Hell, I'd print it out and put it on the wall in my shop if I were you. You may not get any money, but you can shure use them as an example of your work. "Nice people, we do design work and sub for them all the time. They are kinda new at this ya know."
-------------------- this space for rent Posts: 130 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi Neil. I doubt this will make you feel any better, but it IS a form of flattery. Personally, I would be ashamed to show another's work and call it my own. But then again, I live in a small enough town where I would KNOW who's account it was and be very sure that shop knew their client was shopping before I even bid on it.
This is a rather unique abstract of the principle, where they did in fact 'do' the vehicle, but by their presentation, are claiming credit for the ability to design at that level. Can they, or is that one vehicle standing out as the alpha design? If they cannot really substantiate or duplicate that level of design skill, it will turn around and bite them in the butt. They will eventually be caught in this deception - where it hurts - in the eyes of some client they are trying to woo.
They could avoid that future embarassmant by adding a caption to the offending web page stating they have faithfully reproduced that client's existing fleet graphics.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let's suppose your customer brings you a Microsoft word document with text layed out exactly the way he wants it on his box truck and you letter the truck exactly this way. Now, surprisingly it looks pretty damn good. Do you put a picture of it in your portfolio or ad? Of course you do.
I see alot of sign people who seem to think that they have extroidinary rights when it comes to the stuff they create. If a customer comes to you and wants something designed for their truck, it's your job to charge for it. Charge for the design. Accept the fact that you should have charged enough for the design and now it's there's. Why the heck would any sign person own the design of a customers truck?? I've never understood that one. Do you think that some guy out there owns the design on all the Coca-Cola trucks?? not a chance. Pepsi trucks?? not a chance. They had the common sense to charge "X" amount of dollars for a design and it's now the property of Coke. If Coke comes to you and wants you to letter up a nice semi-trailer. Is that gonna go in your portfolio?? You know it will. But what about the poor guy who designed the truck layout and the guy who designed the actual Coke logo?? Nope, Coke owns that layout and logo.
But some reason sign folks seem to think they own everything they make....even after they've sold it. Had they gotten big time $$$ for what they made, they would probably think different. But unfortuantely we never seem to charge what we think the design was worth, and assume that it's still ours. Problem is that It's not worth the time to even try and fight for it, so why not charge enough in the first place?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
If we are talking about that ONE truck, (not a second truck bought and lettered by the new shop to match your original), I would put a link on your site saying "Hey look! competitors love our design so much, they even put it on thier website!"
I would then send them a email with that link on your site to thier site. When they see that, they'll probably be so embarrased it will fly off thier site in a hurry.
It's not about owning the design, sounds like they flat out put a pic of another sign shops work in thier portfolio, that sucks.
[ September 15, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Tony B ]
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Funny you should metion that Neil.. The Same thing is happening to me also and wasn't sure how to handle it.. We moved back to Canon City and when I get here a Local Competetor has used a few Signs I made on their brochure. And the funny thing is one the customers I did the sign for is the one who let me know about it.. They are more upset about it then I am. I'll just put they same sign on my Brochure and see what he does. As I have a photo of me installing it..
posted
Neil, They are infringing your copyright. You have the right to tell them to cease and desist. (Even though you did the work for the owner of the truck, you still own the copyright to your design, as well).
I suggest you go over to the new shop and speak with the owner. My guess is that they'll be shameful about being caught and they'll take down the picture without a fight.
You might, as others have suggested, use the opportunity to introduce yourself and suggest that they could contract with you for design work.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know this person, he's not new to the business, he just sucks, not at what he does, at what he did, I think I'll just leave it alone, what goes around comes around. This happened to me years ago with another slimeball, I confronted him on it at a mutual customer, I was really angry at the time, and told him, he went out of business within 6 months. I neither expect nor would I wish anything like that on anyone, not even slimeballs, so the best of luck.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hate to hear stuff like this, Neil. This is one of the things that has always bothered me.
When we bought this place three years ago, there was 20 years worth of sign and design work on the streets that we could use in any advertising we wanted to, stating that it was produced by this shop. But, the work was done by the previous owner, so we don't use it. We only show work that we did ourselves.
I don't understand how people can do this. It drives me nuts. This is something that has always bothered me about the franchise shops. National chains supply brochures to the local stores with pictures of work the local guys didn't (or couldn't) produce themselves.
It's just sad.
-------------------- Joe Endicott NEXCOM (Navy Exchange Service Command) Signing Programs Specialist Virginia Beach, VA jeendicott@msn.com
"I want to be Stereotyped....I want to be Classified." Posts: 681 | From: Virginia Beach, VA USA | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
That reminds me of a storyfrom my younger days. I was working for a shop in San Jose, CA called Sign Classics. Jeffrey Barnecutt was the manager.
One day a young buck walks in the shop office area looking for work. Jeffrey asked me to look over his portfolio and report back as to his abilities and such.
His work on the first couple of pages was average at best. It seemed funny that there was some work towards the back that was actually pretty darn good. One truck job especially caught my eye.
It was a truck that belonged to a walnut farm outside of Gilroy. I knew these people because I had lettered several trucks for them. I knew that they had gotten someone new for the last one because I saw it lettered and I didn't do it. It was, however, a fairly poor copy of the layout I had done for them before.
Funny, there was a picture of one of the trucks that I had done, not the one that he had done. I asked him to his face if he had lettered that truck. He said that he had. I asked him if he was sure. Again he replied yes. I then told him that I had lettered that truck and that he had letered a different one. He responded that he must have taken a picture of the wrong one because they were so hard to tell apart.
Yeah, right.
Looking through the rest of the pictures, I saw jobs that had been done by Terry Hubbs in San Martin, Paul Rice from Morgan Hill, and several other signs that I knew were way beyond his abilities.
When I was done, I told him that he shouldn't have other people's work in his "brag book". He wanted to know if I was going to tell Jeffrey and if it was going to affect his getting a job...
You betcha, Big Buck.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Si’s hacker approach, although quite appealing, is fraught with danger. My nephew, who I think dreams in Flash animation and Java script, says the Digital Millennium Act provides for severe penalties to those hacking web sites. You might expose a crook, but guess who would end up in jail in place of him? Bummer!
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Neil, first, i'm sorry to hear this has happened, because it happened to me also many years ago.
I think the best one to ask/address this would be Dan Antonelli (http://www.graphicd-signs.com/), since he seems pretty up to date on copyright laws and rights to logos, etc., and that is what this is, your intellectual property/copyright being stolen.
MC
-------------------- Mike Clayton M C Grafix Custom Lettering New Jersey (again) Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
I've run into this on more than one occasion. One had gone so far as to take pictures of work that I had done and passed it off as his own.
Another simply put a fresh coat of paint on some sandblasted signs I had done several years before and put a picture of it in their portfolio with no caption or discription of what they had done. Clearly, the intent was to let the viewer think that they had produced the signs.
Still another had taken a design that I had posted, simply changed the text and used it for his own company logo.
No matter how you handle it, somebody is going to accuse you of sour grapes.
If it were me, if the photo posted is your work, I'd send a certified letter requesting its removal. If he doesn't do it, I'd put up a screen capture of the photo on his website, put it on a poster and mount it on the wall where everyone can see it in your shop and make the caption just as Darrell suggested.
As to Si's suggestion and John's response, there is one thing you can do that is legal. You can legally link a pop-up to their website. Hertz just lost a case where a competitor linked a pop-up to Hertz's site. Imagine the fun you could have with that one.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic