posted
Many of you have been on this board longer than my 3 years, and are probably even more aware of the struggles Steve and Barb have gone through to keep this board going. Bluntly put, it takes money. We all know that. It was hoped that paying advertisers would carry the load, but unfortunately, that was not the case, and so visitors were asked to become paying members. Another hard truth is that when you're a struggling sign artist, $50 can make the difference in being able to pay your rent, or pay for your child's daycare (that would cover 2 days, maybe), whatever the reason, some folks don't have the ability or desire to pay. One of the reasons that I support this board is because of the fact that you don't have to be a paying member to join in. I will also tell you one of the things I've come to really dislike and that is the signature that many of you have attached proclaiming to be a "Proud Supporter". It's fine and dandy that you are, I am too. I'm sure you are doing it to encourage others to become paying supporters as well, but I honestly think it is a major turn-off to visitors to this site. It's like trying to shame them into contributing financially. Just my opinion, naturally, but think about it.
Steve and Barb have incorporated Resident Perks, but I think if you canvass the paying members here, you'll find that the majority didn't contribute for the free fonts and monthly drawings, but because of what I can only call the "spirit of Letterhead brotherhood" for lack of a better term.
I'm probably going to stir up a hornet's nest by even suggesting this, but maybe the board needs to be restructured again, and have some areas Residents Only. Maybe encourage the submission of more Step by Steps and place those in a RO area. Add a section for special interest articles open to all, but have archives of those articles placed in the RO area, and have certain articles only available through RO, with new stuff being added regularly. Nothing major, but just enough to give someone that extra incentive to become a Resident. I also think it would be a good idea to have a page pop up the first time a visitor signs up giving the advantages of becoming a Resident (maybe that's already the case).
I know the subject has been beaten into the ground, but with some of the negative posts Ted got about his draw and some of the complaints I've read about Visitors not getting responses to their posts and thinking it's because they're not Residents, I thought I'd throw it out here again. The points I'm trying to maker are - first, I realize how important it is for the monies to come in, but you can't count on the spirit alone, and second, no one should have to feel like an outsider or be afraid to post because they aren't paying supporters.
------------------ Kelli Cajigas aka Janda Dolphin deSigns & Banners “A satisfied customer will tell two friends, a dissatisfied customer will tell ten.”
[This message has been edited by Kelli (edited February 02, 2001).]
posted
Cuz I don't LIKE residents! I don't like visitors! I don't like hardly anybody, cept my dog when he's not lickin' me! I hang out here because I like everybody I've met here so far. But don't go feeling too confident........cuz remember I DON'T LIKE ANYBODY!
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I'm sorry......think she doesn't like me now??
:^)
Good post.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
I have been active here on a daily basis for over 5 years now, I understand your sentiments, I for one, like to try and treat all as equal generally in life, and have lived where I don't see people above or below me. I contribute here because I appreciate the hard work that Steve & Barb have put in to make this what it is, even though living half way around the world, I wouldn't have to feel guilty if I didn't pay. Chances are slim at present, of meeting Steve and Barb at a meet and feeling guilty and I don't suppose Steve will be coming here to sleep with me!( that said Jackie was here in the summer!). ( i didn't sleep with Jackie either)
I have not noticed an attitude to Residents and Visitors, but have noticed an attitude to certain posters by certain posters regardless of status.....but then so much can be misread and misunderstood in a few lines in a post, humour is taken the wrong way, people take far too much personally, we all need to be positive in life and not focus on so much negativity. Bad news we are made to believe is good news, controversial posts draw much more than informal ones. WE have so much good to share together regardless of tags and I think that's the way Steve and Barb want to keep it.
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posts: 1552 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Nov 1998
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In my humble opinion, "visitors" shouldn't be humiliated for not wanting to become a Letterville resident.
If a visitor really likes this place, and gets to know the people here, then they will become a resident all on their own because they want to.
I support this site because I feel responsible to help keep this site functioning. This site has done so much for me, I can't even describe all the ways I have benefited. I would hate to see it disappear. I have been to the other sign web sites....they just don't have their act together when it comes to creating the "spirit" that this site has.
Also, I have never held back sharing information or held back commenting on a post because a person is a "visitor".
I have even linked all who come to this site a free .eps download of ornamental sign flourishes that were my original creation, which by doing so, sent it to that area called "public domain." I do this every year in December.
And, if any of you feel like you are being picked on, then note this: I, a resident, have been attacked more times than you can imagine for my comments and my opinions posted on this board. They have come in rude, unprofessional remarks to my psots and in flaming e-mails that would melt any computer!
At least I got the attention of my peers!
If I can survive, so can the rest of you!
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Stop in and visit a while! 309-828-7110 signman@davesworld.net Raptorman or Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here is the flip side of the coin for my particular situation. I have enjoyed, used and benefited from this web site for quite a few years and I have tried to contribute my knowledge as I saw fit. I am also an employee of the company listed below. I have encouraged the owner to contribute, which he has the best of intentions to do so, but he just keeps putting it off (along with everything else).
I'd love to throw the $50 in myself but I truly don't have the resources to do that. I have never felt the pressure from Steve and Barb that I feel from other residents on my visitor status. I had the pleasure of meeting with Steve and Barb for the second time when they stopped by the shop the last time that they were in Calgary. The topic was discussed and they never put any pressure on me to cough up the money, so why do so many others feel the need to do it for them?
Sorry folks, just my two cents worth of input. Don't second guess everyone else's situations.
Thank you Steve, Barb, Merchants, Residents and Visitors alike,
Steve
------------------ Steve King Taylor Signs Ltd. Calgary, Alberta Hey, we just turned 100 Years old!
posted
One question: What's the site worth to you? $50 = a roll of intermediate vinyl, a sheet of aluminum or 3-4 decent brushes. If the existence of the site means less than that, then don't become a resident.
posted
HEY!! Look UP^......Davey is now HUMBLE!! Yay!!
:^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Did I say I was humble?....well everyone knows thats a lie! However my "opinion" is humble....hahahahahahaahah
You are in a strange mode today, Pierre. Does this mean you had sex last night? or even something better....a new neat sign project? ( you better know I joking )
( oh god, Im gonn get blasted now! me and my big mouth)
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Stop in and visit a while! 309-828-7110 signman@davesworld.net Raptorman or Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I was a visitor for several months, waiting for my business to become somewhat fledged, after which I became a resident and proud of it. I seldom felt shamed to be a resident and especially not from the Mayors office. Their are a lot of reasons some choose or need not to be residents, and the only one which I would scorn would be bottom feeding scumbags who would do it just because "they can". As far as Ted's post; it might have been like a guy coming to my party, eating my grub, drinking my beer, for which he was openly invited, and while there, was offering my other guests a reason to leave the party that I had worked so hard to provide. Basicly, its a crock. ........Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The way I look at this website is like we are all taking a journey together...........it's Steve's van................the $50 is just chippin' in for gas
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Of COURSE I had sex last night. It was the first of the month, wasn't it?? Besides.....Lyn ALways notes it on the calendar so we don't forget. Hmph!
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I'll jump right in here and stir the nest. I don't believe it's as much of an issue as to if you are a R or a V. But like other parts of life it's an issue of rather you are an insider(part of the group) or not.
I stumbled on to this site alittle over 6 months ago. At first I was very impressed. Like it's been said before it's like a letterhead meet. A fair amount of sharing both sign related and otherwise. But just like letterhead meets unless you hang out a bunch or impress someone your just another body. Don't get me wrong you can learn a great deal if you want, but mostly from watching(reading here). If you want to ask something specific and you are a nobody you will get a few responses(greatly appreciated I must add) but if you are part of "the group" R or V you will recieve more help. Or if you post something controversial or stupid.
Case in point, a couple of days ago I posted a question. After 3 days now I have had 5 responses(again greatly appreciated) but I would have liked to have had a few more thoughts on the subject. Alittle more than 12 hours ago I asked a stupid question and I already have more responses to it.
I'm not necessarily bitching about the responses I have or have not gotten. I'm just trying to make a point that it seems to me that it's not necessarily if you are a R or a V as to how you are included in things, both here and in life in general.
After a few weeks I decided that to me the things that you can learn here are well worth the $50. Thats why I became a R. Not for status or to become part of "the group". I will say I don't see why others don't see it worth while to "pay taxes". I've read here that some think that offering help to others is payment enough. In my opinion if you are any sort of decent human being at all helping others is just part of life. I don't under stand what the problem is with $upporting this site if you use it or gain anything from it. It obviously cost money to maintain it.
In closing I said earlier at first I was impressed. After being around awhile it had gotten old seeing the sarcasm and bitching about some of the same old things. Up until just a few days ago I had not even been visiting this site and to tell you the truth it's just like not watching a soap opera for a while....when you tune back in you realize you haven't missed much.(as far as the sarcasm and bitching go) And I don't have the time to hang around enough to become part of "the group" so not much point in asking for help. No offense to those in "the group" It's just that I enjoy spending any free time I have with my wife and kids.
.............There's my thought for the day, I don't have to think the rest of the day, thank you
------------------ Jeff's Lettering Jeff & Dara Spradling Belvidere, Il.
"No you are not my only customer...do you really think I live on $150 a year"
Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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"and should be revamped" Ted if you have all the answers and so much time(based on how much you post) why don't you start a much better site?... just wanted to see what it was like to be on the sarcasm team.
------------------ Jeff's Lettering Jeff & Dara Spradling Belvidere, Il.
"No you are not my only customer...do you really think I live on $150 a year"
Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
hey perrie...XOXOXOXOXO I LUV YA BUDDY....so there..with all your faults even.....heheheheheheh....i been here a long time..and ive would love to send in money...but boy this has been the worst (2000)yr of my business(since 86)and iam strapped to the hilt, it is just startin to pick up a little here and iam so far behind, that a $20 job is dinner.......iam not jokin...its been that bad....and i dont think iam alone here....and i think steve and barb understand.....but as soon as i get caught up, steve and sign craft are the 1st on top of my list of "enjoyment spending"
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Oh, YEAH? Well you're just gonna have to wait till the first of NEXT month now for any hanky panky, Joe. Give me an address and I'll send y a "T"bone steak.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
First, Pierre, don't worry, I NEVER take you seriously lol.
I never meant to imply that Steve and Barb put pressure on folks. I think the fact that they exert NO pressure is the reason so many of us want to encourage others to help out. It's just that I think there has to be a better way to encourage more of the many visitors to become residents.
Before being so quick to jump on Ted, it seems to me he cares enough about this site and even a couple of the members here to venture an opinion, much like I'm venturing my own. I know the comment about starting his own board was tongue in cheek (at least I hope so), but this is exactly the kind of posts that get misinterpreted (I have plenty of experience there!) and lead to more discord.
When I first found this board, I was shocked at the willingness so many here showed to share what boils down to hard earned knowledge. My question is why can't we have some of this more valuable knowledge, and I'm talking about the extensive how-to's, maybe access to special articles on getting started, determining shop rates, pricing, etc. for the novices, and anything else "special" someone could think of. It would be a simple choice, you could be a paying member and have full access, or you could choose to be limited to just certain areas. The main thought I'll leave you with is, while it would be great if everyone felt the need to help pay for the gas (I LOVE that analogy!), there will be many more people who think "Why buy the cow when the milk is free?' I say, "give 'em free milk, but charge for the cream!"
------------------ Kelli Cajigas aka Janda Dolphin deSigns & Banners “A satisfied customer will tell two friends, a dissatisfied customer will tell ten.”
[This message has been edited by Kelli (edited February 02, 2001).]
If I may be permitted to share some history that I'm sure most here know nothing about.....
Before this "visitor" and "resident" thing started, I can recall several "regulars" here repeatedly suggesting that Steve do a "visitor" and "member" thing, perhaps as a way to help generate some cash to help pay to keep this site going. Steve was against it. He was against it because he was afraid that it might cause an "us vs. them" situation.
Anyone who has a problem with the "visitor" thing needs to take it up with the "old timers", not Steve.
posted
How much does it actually cost to "run" a website like this? I thought that once a site was designed, you pay a company to host your site. Is that a lot of money? I must be overlooking something. Somebody educate me.
posted
I'm working on a responce to all your questions and comments, but anyone that has ever seen me type, knows that will take some time.
In the meantime, I suggest everyone do some homework. To understand why we do things the way we do, you must first understand what Letterheads is all about. I suggest everyone reading this post stop for a second and read A History Of Letterheads at www.letterhead.com/basics/org7.html
If you find the time, you should also read our bio at www.letterhead.com/profiles/shortreed/index.html You should now have a better idea of what Letterville and us are all about before I post.
I do want to take a second to address Mark's post. Mark asks:
"How much does it actually cost to "run" a website like this? I thought that once a site was designed, you pay a company to host your site. Is that a lot of money? I must be overlooking something. Somebody educate me."
I'm not going to go into all the costs involved at this time, but I do think Mark's question is timed perfectly.
Mark called us regarding a posting question just 30 minutes before making his post. Nothing wrong with that Mark. We get calls like yours 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's our job! In addition to the phone calls, we also read and answer an average of 30-40 e-mails a day.
My point is that what we assume and the truth is often different. I have no idea what it costs to put out a sign magazine either. Seems easy enuff. <-- Just kidding
posted
It doesn't MATTER what it costs. If a customer asks me what it cost to make the sign he's going to use do I give him a breakdown on my COST?? Not likely, Sahib! Just keep makin' room for us to post our sage, considered remarks and play your cards close to the vest!
:^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Hi. I'm John Deaton, and I'm a visitor. First let me say that several times I have put a check in an envelope to mail to Steve and Barb, only to get it back out because something came up that I needed the money for that was more important. Don't get me wrong, this is a very important place to me. I have learned many things, made many friends and acquaintances, and tried to also share what knowledge that I have in hopes of contributing as much as I can. I love this place. I think it's the greatest site there is for signpeople. I'm not gonna tell you my troubles or bore you with any sob stories, but things do get hard at times, and hopefully it will get better and I guarantee you I will become a resident, but only because I think it's worth the money. NOt because I feel I have been pressured to do so. I also feel if someone has a reason to stay a visitor, that should be respected, and they should not be treated any different. Some visitors really provide alot of good advice on here,and are important to the site. I myself have not felt any pressure to become a resident, and Steve and Barb have never said anything that would make me or anyone else feel that way. All it's going to do is drive a wedge between us all, and cause this site to be something else than what it was intended to be. A gathering place for letterheads, to meet and become friends, share knowledge, and further on the letterhead spirit.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Signs&Grafix 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
posted
What unique place Letterville is. Is there any other sign related magazine or website that is more open than this forum. I'll bet many of you don't even know who actually owns these other resourses, let alone details of their financial and personal lives. We're not complaining, but it sure makes life interesting.
To understand why we do things the way we do, you must first understand what Letterheads is all about. I suggest everyone reading this post stop for a second and read A History Of Letterheads at www.letterhead.com/basics/org7.html If you find the time, you should also read our bio at www.letterhead.com/profiles/shortreed/index.html. You should now have a better idea of what Letterville is all about before we move on.
So what have we learned? Some of you who have stumbled upon Letterville may be under the impression that we invented this idea of sharing information openly and for free. You now know that Letterheads was started by 7 young apprentices who loved what they were doing and wanted to become the best they could be. I wasn't at the table with the original Letterheads, but my impression is that the exchange of knowledge was free. Chip in to cover expenses, but no cost to pick each others brains.
Many of you have not yet attended your first live Letterhead Meet. I really don't think you can fully appreciate what this is all about until you do. Very few in the sign business are Letterheads. To many, it is just a job they do to make money. There's nothing wrong with that, but I can't think of any Letterhead/Pinhead I have ever met at a live meet that isn't passionate about what they do. There is more than the promise of money that seems to drive a Letterhead.
We like to think of Letterville as the OnLine Letterhead Meet that never ends. Every meet host is free to run their meet the way they want. We choose to allow all who have questions or want to share to have access to that knowledge for free. I cannot imagine anything that would ever cause us to change this policy.
Now having said that, there still remains the challenge of paying for all this. Letterville has grown from a hobby into a fulltime business. It's a 24/7 operation with 2 employees, Barb and me. In Oct '95 there were 23 of us. Today there are 6,250 registered Letterville users. Last week, 24,470 visited the BullBoard alone!
In order to better answer your questions about how big Letterville is, I called our website host at Localweb and talked to owner Mike. To tell the truth, I don't pay much attention to "log files" myself, so I was amazed at what he told me.
Remember that free 10 meg of webspace your ISP gives you to build your website? Letterville is currently just under 500 meg in size and growing daily. All these posts, meet reports, and images sure do add up fast. We like having all that info available for you, so we just continue to buy more space as needed.
The figure that really rocked me was our monthly bandwidth usage. Letterville uses an avearge of 45 gig each month. I have no idea what that means, so Mike went on to explain that a fairly busy corporate website might use 1 gig of bandwidth per month. Just before I hung up, Mike reminded me that Letterville should be on it's own server. Gulp!
So how do we pay for this?
1. We can put on suits and sell ourselves to one or more giant corporations. They could "sponsor" the website and compensate us to sing their virtues. Not a bad plan, but we've been signmakers and small business owners too many years. Like Neil Young says: " I ain't singing for Bud!"
What we do offer instead is advertising. Those that sell and/or service signmakers have the opportunity to become Letterville Merchants and reap the rewards of having their name in front of all the traffic here in Letterville. This is a service they pay for. They do not sponsor Letterville. Residents sponsor Letterville!
2. Another solution would be to make the website "Members Only." This appears to work well for porn sites, but we already know my opinion on free access to the information. So how do we intice users to pay for something they already get for free?
Kelli has the right idea; "Give 'em free milk, but charge for the cream!" In our case, the milk is free access to all the knowledge here in Letterville. The cream is our Resident Perks. These are little extras like special font packages, monthly draws and whatever we can dig up in the future to intice signmakers to support the website financially. Our goal is to someday make all Residents actual shareholders.
I personally see this Visitor vs Resident thing as a non-issue. At many live meets, we wear various coloured wrist bands or badges to indicate if we have paid to eat or not. Meet organisers often wear distinct coloured shirts to identify themselves. There are subscribers and non subscribers, brownies and girl guides, Pinheads and Letterheads, Man and Wife....the list is endless. One is not better than the other. If you believe the person that pays for a bit more is a villian, you probally live in the wrong country.
Kelli said it best. "If a visitor really likes this place, and gets to know the people here, then they will become a Resident all on their own because they want to." Every Resident was once a Visitor. We currently have just over 200 Residents. All those who believe we are living on easy street need only do the math. It's not a fortune, but it insures this website never has to depend on advertisers to survive. If we ever decide to persue a more formal organization, we see our list of paid Residents as a vote of confidence in what we are trying to accomplish.
So there you have it. I've tried to answer all your questions as honestly and openly as possible. We hope you better understand why there are Visitors, Residents and Merchants. All are equally valuable here in Letterville. If anyone tells you different, you can tell them to take it up with Steve and Barb. Enjoy the website, make new friends, and share your experience and know how.
posted
O.K..................! IT SAY'S RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THIS PAGE, "WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND TODAY ?" Unconditional, Free thought, without cost! I myself have bitched and moaned to Steve & Barb, about the real world and the cost of survival and probably others besides me have addressed this issue with them. They feel lucky to have made it this far with the operation as it is but, I personally feel this way concerning letterville. Along with a progressive image, comes alternative style thinking to make this site the way it needs to be. As far as the original intent, which has made us all a little more than humble, it started out as a hobby thing that grew legs and took off mostly due to word of mouth and some clever moves by our captain. BUT... that was then and this is now. With the most sucessful ongoing contributor oriented site around, this spot should have great marketing potential. Maybe the next step in the evolution of Letterville, could be a think tank of sorts bringing ideas that fit here to make it a complete revolving commercial enterprise with capital motives as do other ( E ) type entrepenuers who are in constant flux. Change is good, We were all born happy and when the sun shines....grow corn. Thats my dime..............CrazyJack P.S. THINK!
------------------ Jack Wills Studio Design Works 6255 Brookside Circle Rocklin, CA 95677 writer@quiknet.com
Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Geeeeezzzz, THEODORE!! Let it rest! Steve spoke......we heard........he doesn't mind one way or the other. Do it....or do it NOT, young Jeddi! Either way, the FORCE will continue. Don't you have anything better to do than to keep this crap rolling?? Go buy your wife some flowers.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I usually have resentful feelings when I see a menu demanding 15% gratuity added to the price of what I ordered. Then When I notice they added the tax to the food and then applied the 15% it furthers the crime.
I also appreciate leaving a healthy tip on a voluntary basis following good food and service.
The waitresses always remember the good tippers when they return.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Oh, for the faith of a spider! He begins his web without any thread.
Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
THAT was a cheap shot, Ted. Gives me a whole new perspective on you.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
What Resident vs Visitor issue? Where does that "sour grapes" mentality come from? The true benefits of this site are freely available to all. End of story.
I disengage myself from the headgames, and wordplay some folks use to get nowhere.
Mr. Jack Davis "Bronzeo" ... that no nonsense & perceptive view of yours is something I can appreciate! I agree!
Nettie
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident! Location, Location, Location! It's all right here! http://www.letterhead.com/supporters
I only wish I had some of your energy to help me get my signwork done! I am turning away work right and left! I personally do try to pull some of the energy from the site on advice and use that to get some work done. But, a gal/mom can only do so much by herself and produce quality results! (if I could only utilize some of that artistic kinetic energy of the mind to physically help me here at my business! (just a purely selfish thought!)
------------------ Deb Creative Signs "All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino
Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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