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On a serious note, Bob I beleive you are correct and Ink-jet will be the future, for I can see Gerber going that way itself, I am open to the versacam. it will interesting to see what comes out of it.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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This is getting annoying. We're constantly in a battle here over which machine is better. No 2 people have the same needs and no 2 shops are traveling the same path. What is right for one shop is totally wrong for another.
How about instead of arguing over which machine is the best machine, we honestly discuss the pros AND cons of each. Then the prospective buyers can make an informed decision as to what fits their needs. So, maybe a person will change their mind on which to buy and a manufacturer may get upset over seeing their product's shortcomings posted. Isn't it better for that manufacturer to loose 1 sale than it is to anger a customer who then tells everyone about their disaster?
Who knows better than you what machine would best fit your business and your needs? As a potential buyer, if you have to have someone tell you what machine you need instead of learning the good, bad & ugly about each machine & decide which is the machine you need, you really shouldn't be operating your own business.
If this doesn't work, then how about you boys all go into the locker room & finally decide whos is bigger.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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As I prepare my well thought out ideas on this post, I realize Bob Rochon is saying all that needs to be said. But, here goes anyways.
We all have the skills and equipment now to produce quality signs and make good money. Machines like this give half asses the impression they can be good sign makers. Yes, and I too can't wait for it to become cheaper, a lower entry level for all the dilettantes to march right on in at a faster pace, and leave even faster.
Sure, in the hands of many of us here, nicer work may result. I thought that when full color banner printing came out, that would bring up the level of that product and make me more money. That stuff is more discounted than any other product. $3.25 sq.ft? Come on.
Our customers aren't waiting breathlessly for this stuff. They want well designed, reasonably priced, professional signs from us.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2786 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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aaahhuumm...if you are looking for judges in the locker room contest....ok, alright already i'll do it. as far as the thermal vs inkjet...keep duking it out...just figure it out b4 my next buy will ya!
[ September 20, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Ill go along with buying Rochon a beer. But for Karen I'm getting a whole brewery.
...Karen, you may be a real bad girl, but damn, you are one real good woman.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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if rochon is gona be a dentist.....iam gona open up a proctology practice.......hehehehehehehehe
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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geesh op wouldn't ya rather be a gynocologist instead...i mean really...an a$$ doctor??..what a sh!t job....who wants to play in the dump when ya can hang in the playground....
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Well I went to the Big Show in Long Beach this afternoon a checked out Versacamm. Roland is the and Versa Camm is the way of the future for one man Shops.. No Doubt about It. Be the One.
-------------------- Danny Bussell Tujunga, California
Bootleg on Chat
"Keep The Rubber Side Down" Posts: 213 | From: Tujunga, California | Registered: Mar 2003
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karen...in my younger days i went to school to be a GYN,,,,,but got kicked outa school....FOR GETTIN MY HEAD INTO MY WORK!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA as for doing the proctology thing.....we do a lot of work with them....in this business....hahahahahaha
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Baby food machine?? Just kidding, I happen to own an Edge, and absolutely love it. I appreciated your input. We are shopping for an inkjet printer. Burns reccomends Roland, but it's too narrow. We'd like 60" I do agree that we use all these as tools to make a happy customer. Edge is just another tool. But, comparatively, there is no equal to it when it comes to versatility and longevity of graphics.
[ September 21, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rick, look at Rolands new Soljet II SC-540. I saw it at the L.B. show along side the Versacamm and their was no comparison. 54" prints, 300 sq.ft. per hour at 450 dpi !! That makes the Arizona 180 look bad. They are pushing it as coming with it's own rip that just requires an eps file. From what I've researched, Onyx already supports it with Postershop. Sounds pretty trick. The machine prints a bar code on the edge of the print. You can then remove the vinyl, send your contour cut file to the machine. You can laminate etc.... and then when you load in that particular print, the machine scans the bar code and applies the appropriate cut file to it.
The machine is about $30K. More or less twice as much as the Versacamm. But I think it more than makes up for it in size and speed.
Now if I could get Roland to take back our PC-60, we'd buy one today.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just saw it operating at the sign show here too, nice print quality on gloss vinyl, very very slow. For the patient only. The Soljet II EX looks more like a serious production machine.
-------------------- Bigg Blighh Rip Graphics Milsons Point, NSW Australia www.ripgraphics.com.au Posts: 33 | From: Milsons Point, NSW Australia | Registered: Jul 2000
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Hiya Rick, I have to agree, I had one at my old employers back in Joisey, I loved it too. That thing did print money! Within a month of purchasing it, we, a 2 man shop, were grossing about $12,000 a week in edge related work alone. Maybe it was a "fluke" or "luck", but it lasted a solid three months. Those numbers dropped a lot after our distributor sold one of our major clients a machine too. Needless to say,we no longer did business with that vendor. Currently, as far as I'm concerned, pigmented inkjet is a good product for short term outdoor applications - 6 months to a year, tops with lamination. Eco-solvents may last longer, but I have no experience with them. The limited experience I have with solvent printers show that they'll last about 2 years before they really start to fade, but no coating is required. The latest buzz from my vendors and other boards is the JV3 by Mimaki. While it has issues, it prints with solvent inks at up to 98" wide. However, the JV4 on their web site sounds even more interesting. Until I see real world test results on any of these new "large format" machines, I'll stick with scotchprint graphics for vehicle graphics or anything that needs to last for more than a year outdoors. Altough my current vendors and a trip to A.C. in December might persuade me otherwise. For the small stuff, it's either screen printing or Gerber. in the mean time, if you need a few sources to get prints done, let out a yell. I do discount inkjet in house and have a number of sources for all of the above including "digital" screen printing and die cutting plus sublimination on many different materials. You can call or send me an email at work.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bob, what a fantastic point you have made about the price of consumables...ie Edge foils and the like.
I'm going to use that point with my Edge 2 owning buddy who is always complaining about the cost of his foils.....like you say, if they were cheap, everybody would own one and there goes the neighborhood again.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Like any machine using consumables, I dont pay for them, my customers do. When you sell it that way and think it that way, there is no need to find cheaper supplies unless they work better.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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To Bruce Evans The Pro II EX actually does what Roland says it can (surprise surprise) and then some - a 1.2 x 3.5m banner at 450x360 dpi takes less than 8 minutes and looks seriously good and is dry as it churns out. The Rip is a Wasatch and its a fantastic rip , fast , accurate and tons of features.(like nesting and the ability to set up multiple machines and colour controls that can make the machine do anything) The rip can print from many formats , tiff , bmp , psd , pdf , eps etc. It also integrates into any graphics package - we print from Autocad , Corel , illustrator , freehand etc. Coated media still works best on these machines for the extremely teeny detailed stuff dunno bout the bar code , mine prints registration marks and its amazing to see the machine automatically pick em up when reloaded and cut with amazing accuracy , I printed laminted and then reloaded and cut 12mmx 8mm aids ribbons , following the shap of the ribon and was amazed at the registration of the cut. (Thing cuts self adhesive papers and scores 180 gm well too - we printed and scored roofs for a model - a doubel score - one deep for breaking em out and one shallow for bending) As to the Versacam If you think about it , 30" doesnt seem a standard size for vinyl so it is plainly not aimed at the high throughput market , to get the speeds you pay!!! To checkers The prints are durable and are suitable for longer than 6 months - we have very high intensity uv lamps and they survive really well under them , apart from which most prints withstand a wet finger rubbed vigourously over them - I would be fully prpared to give any of my customers a fade guarantee on em However , no matter WHAT I use to print , unless I laminate - I will give NO guarantee on any print that is subject to abraision or chemical attack (I do thermal as well) As to the Soljet , you dont have to be a rocket scientist or a print engineer to work em , there is no maintenace involved , the machine does it all its self - we have never had to flush the machine or open any covers. If you take some care to colour workflow your monitors and understand colour printing , resolution etc - you get really good results but even a novice can start printing and making money right away in terms of working the machine. As to the affordability factor and barriers to entry - you can buy sewing machines at any price - not one of them make you Coco Channel , same with Cameras - you dont become Alfred Eisenstad if you buy a leica. You might be able to work a versacam or whatever easily , but if you arent creative - all you are is an operator and there are easier comodities to sell or machines to use to make money and get a better ROI. In the light of this , Im amazed at the hostility against machines like this and those that have them.
I have said this before , but pricing on a $x per ft basis is a recipe to lose money - if you have guys like that in your hood , keep out the market or become a specialist.
Cost of print becomes a big issue as you do larger stuff , at 3x the cost and 1/4 of the speed ansd 1/2 the quality using other technology - you also cant compete in that market and one has to take cognisance of where the market is going and what those around you are doing. At some stage you have to embrace new technology to survive. Vrsatility and flexibility is what one wants in this industry , the ability to change medias and print modes easily , to never say "no" to a customer and to offer more or better services to your existing customer base.
I dont think I would buy a large format printer "cold" IE without a market and without a customer base - I serve the corporate and the signage market - so I already had a base to work from. If you finance a machine like this , the payments are not steep and one gets tax advantages etc. In real terms it costs me about the same to hire a semi-skilled worker for what I pay monthly and that worker cannot do what the machine can - of course the other side of that coin is that you might have to hire a semi skilled or highly skilled worker to design stuff for and operate the machine and a few more for "finishing" On that subject - one really has to print finish to make a machine like this really viable - IE various laminations , mountings , sewing and grommeting , various display options etc. It's not just a matter of getting a machine and pressing the 'print" button and selling what comes out - sort of like being able to prepare a car and not being able to spray it - you have to offer the client a finished article. We have the same problems here in South Africa as in the rest of the world in respect of inexperienced folk seeing something working well elsewhere and thinking that they can climb on the band wagon - nothing you can do to stop this. The downside is that often a market is messed up or the reputation of that industry is ruined and 9 times out of 10 the "cowboy" operator eventually goes belly up.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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I haven't see the versacamm...yet. A few months ago I almost sign for the SC-540. Getting at the dealer with my test files got me trilled finding that i could understand the rip (as it was not the beast i expected) and get the machine to produce quality prints at an amasing speed and even to cut if needed...wow.eh. Test on some medias ... banner needs drying time and Roland "forgot" to include mandatory accessories as the dryer or the pickup reel...price tag is up... well the banner took forever to dry. and some beautyful printed and cut vinyl stickers couldn't make it without lamination. oh well Ex serie must be awesome EX serie looks like some answer to getting closer to a dream machine.
Versacamm could of been 36" or 6 colors or whatever you dream of but it's not. Versacamm may be a bit slow on printing (then again it must be faster than the croma 24 I once had.. ) Being that, if it deliver the goods without the ugly and perform as stated without flaws, Versacamm will fill in a nice niche and become a nice tool of the trade. ( me think that Roland should offer a HUGE discount to owner of their PC-*What-ever* the printers that can do IT if you can aford to keep it in unreal shop conditions...anyways that is rant...)
So the eco-solvent didn't convice me enough to sign... Most of my jobs are indoors or short terms and I got lucky to find a mimaki JV-4 at a decent price(1 year used...other shop got JV-3...needed space) Slowly learning the rip and calibration colors...i like it!
long post eh!
É
-------------------- Élaine Beauchemin scrip Lettrage Scripsit inc. St-Hubert, Quebec, Canada www.scripsit.net Posts: 1096 | From: Saint-Hubert, Québec, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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But for Karen I'm getting a whole brewery. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Be the One. 
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