posted
Yeh - it sounds good , its a 4 colour machine tho and isnt exactly very fast - but as a decal printer and vinyl cutter and medium format graphic printer for the smaller shop where things arent that critical , it's very affordable. Thing is , how the hell are Roland gonna sell any of their thernal printers with this thing around. The RIP is excellent BTW - its a Wasatch RIP and way better than rolands colorchoice. I have been fiddling with various media for my soljet and am having some great results , the Versacam should print on vinyls , papers , fabrics , some holographic foils etc. A nice "trick" is that you can spray most anything with a clear laquer and print on it reasonably. Now what roland have got to to do is incorporate a thermal head in a machine like this , say a single ribbon head to do gold , silver and white - then they would have a REAL winner.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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Ok I've held back long enough, But to answer your questions on as to why so little response Alan, maybe...just maybe there are a lot of people who have been bitten by Rolands low cost answer to digital marvels only to be bitten by numerous repairs, and misled promises. It does look great, and I wanted to even look more inot it but then my second thought was to let others be the guinee pigs on this machine.
I know Bob is totally happy with his roland and I know others as well, and I respect that, but I know many that have been screwed or sold a false bill of goods from this company.
Now I know the big G has its own disgruntle following but the edge does what it is sold to do, make money!
NOw to get back to the machine, 3 years simulated to me sounds like they didnt do enough real world testing on the life of the inks.
So in 3 years we will see what REALLY happens, I am experiencing more customers lately that do NOT want digital anything because it doesnt last. Even edge prints.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Until there's a printer that can use UV screenprinting inks then apply a UV urethane clear to make it last at least 6 years and be chemical proof, digital isn't durable enough nor does it last long enough in my book.
Of course, I'm in a completely different market than the rest of you, but it sure would be nice to see a machine that can match the quality of OEM screenprinted graphics.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Rodney, I really think with this new model, Roland will be relegating the CammJets to a very minor area. They will only be useful for folks doing small quantities of simple stickers.
Everything else will be for the small and large EX's.
I think the Versa will significantly impact the market and particularly Encad. The VinylJet can't compare, and their lower end NovaJets are obsolete. They can no longer compare with the Versa for outdoor or the Epsons for indoor. Epson has dropped their prices and increased their output speed... I love this industry, it's so exciting!
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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So Kenneth, are you telling me that with this 4 COLOUR MACHINE that Roland will replace SPOT colour printing?
I guess they've done an INCREDIBLE job of colour managing the machine, providing media profiles, and accounting for all the other variables that can affect inkjet printing then.....
And I guess even though I'm printing with dots thru CMYK, I'm going to be able to make my .5 inch and 1 inch decals look like my 20 inch decals?...
Don't get me wrong---I love inkjet---but there'll always be a place for SPOT colour in my shop---even if it is preceived as costing more and taking a bit longer sometimes....I sell print quality and teach how to sell print quality---not price....
posted
Ted Good point, That's going to be an issue certainly, To operate both would be the Ideal situation, anybody who's going to dive for the first time into Digital better look at all of the options that's out there, But that Versa Camm is really interesting, Time will tell if it can do what it says it can, so you better tighten up those boxing gloves and come out swinging.lol
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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The DPI is high enough so as not to get those dots, providing your original artwork is a high-enough resolution. INKJET is the future, I'm sure. GOODBYE to thermal transfer!
posted
Count me in the misled if not deceived by Roland category.
I bought a pigmented ink Series II printer/cutter late last year. We deceided we could laminate our outdoor prints until our volume warranted a separate purchase of a solvent printer.
When the EX solvent printer came out recently, we asked our distributor to price out the upgrade (exchange).
His answer is that he's not convinced the Eco Sol inks will old up either, so we still should laminate.
We also use an Edge in our shop, and although we have wished it was wider and had higher resolution for years, we have never had to worry about it performing as expected. Including outdoors, on vehicles, boats, banners, etc.
We know it could be better, but, heh, ours is seven years old!
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Well it may not print white or metallic spot colors like my Edge or let me print on some materials I never print on anyway, but it does give:
1. Pretty much every other benefit the Edge gives.
2. Much better sizes to cover more requirements.
3. Much lower running costs.
4. Much higher print quality.
5. A lot less waste.
6. A lower cost of admission.
7. Highly reduced setup times.
8. No choke and spread nightmares.
9. No color to color registration problems.
10. Greatly reduced banding and halftone dot complaints.
11. No more bombsight.
12. Can also be used for straight vinyl cutting.
Assuming it lives up to its advertising (at least as well as the Edge lives up to its advertising):
If I had neither, I would opt for the VersaCamm. Having an Edge, I would opt for this system as the best offering at present to build on my vinyl graphics and decal business.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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Of course I'm not saying inkjet will be able to outperform thermal in every case. I only pointed out that the ColorCamm was never a very good thermal printer and Roland will likely not put a lot of emphasis on it. It is very much "entry-level".
For a shop wanting to do real thermal output then Summa, Gerber, Matan, and perhaps this new Nautilus are what should be considered.
And certainly four color won't produce as good a quality as a multi-color unit, but at that price point it is an excellent "entry-level" outdoor inkjet.
I always recommend that the printer be matched to the planned output and no one printer can do it all.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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good bye thermal transfert ha ah haaaa in 8 years i have up grade my roland 3 time and i they still change their technologies thermal, ink, solvent, maybe in 10 years they will do a good machine and still doing it for a long time and decrease price of operation the edge still the same for 15 years and still better than any roland printer i did a wrong choice long a go some day i will do a better
posted
What Kind of a Mix is that Bob? lol Just Curious?.... ,
Inventions take time sometimes, they are a work in progress, like the Max, probably not close to perfect the first gazillion times around, how many lightbulbs did Edison go through before he had it perfected? Maybe this Roland will be the Answer to some of our Needs... My first 2 Plotters were the Old Camm1 series, they were a fraction of other Plotters, slow granted, but unbelievably Reliable, period... They in my 8 years using them never failed, not once. Can you imagine if this Versa Camm lived up to that,, with so many Swing and Miss's they had with Inkjet so far maybe they'll connect and Hit the ball out of the Park.
[ September 16, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Ted You Know I believe in the Edge... I really don't know of anyone who owned one that Don't love it... yes there are some issues that I had but overall it's been a Love Affair, and my machine just does'nt stop, over $10,000 in foils go through the machine every year. Lets Keep our Fingers Crossed.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I can give you some futher feedback on both the Versacam and the Ex series Roland printers - both are intertwined as the versacam is just a small EX machine. I have seen samples from the Versacam , have seen the machine and seen it work a little - havent actually worked it myself so whatever I say must be taken in that context. Some of the medias I make mention of have not been printed by the Versacam - but by my Soljet which uses exactly the same ink and the same heater system etc. My comments on Versacam quality are based on the differences between the same file printed on the soljet vs the same thing on the Versacam on the samples I have seen.
Lets look at quality first. Despite the fact that there is a 4 colour vs a 6 colour inkset , the quality of each is almost indistinguishable - only in fine graduations and art type photographs is ther any discernable difference and that is being pretty niggly. Colours on both are vibrant and detial is crisp - the machine is way more capable than a pc 60/600 and the output on uncoated media almost looks dye sub like. The solvent inks on uncoated media have a slightly different look to the printing on the Coated media , the coated media with the EX and Versacam is "crisper" for very fine detail , the solvents and uncoated media sort of "spread" the inks better IE it seems the dot is less distributed on coated than uncoated- the effect is to make the uncoated media's prints "smoother". Here in South Sfrica , we can get anything coated so some of the medias I have not had great success printing uncoated , might work well as coated. Both machines print black as black. I havent really tried matching specific spots , but when testing use the roland process colour charts , a pantone chip chart , greyscale images , vector and bitmap images and a combination of both in one file as well as a resolution type chart. At the end of it all , whichever machine you use , you need a loupe to really determine differences between the 4 and 6 colour output. As to durability of print , well there are 2 issues here - the EX and Versacam print on various medias in 2 ways - either the inks penetrate directly or they "sit" on the media - some exotic media will print , but the output is "tacky" - no where near the wetness prior to the Ex inks and heater bar and not nearly as fragile. The inks dry on these medias quickly and once dry are very hard to remove even tho it isn't "in" the media as deeply. Certianly just about all survive a wetted fingertip rubbed vigorously over the print , and most will destroy the vinyl/substrate if a blade is used to try scratch the print off. Solvents WILL remove the print - and funnily enough , a citrus oil cleaner does the mist damage - Im not sure if any digital printers output will survive thinners or solvents of that type being wiped on them?? As to lamination , well I would be pretty confident of supplying unlaminated prints if being used in "perfect" conditions - I would laminate in any conditions where the print is subject to abraison ,lots of handling , chemical cleaning , environmental attack etc - but that generally applys to ANY printed output. In terms of speed , the versacam will output about 1-2 sq meters per hour at the highest resolution - its about 1/4 as fast as the Soljet pro II , there is aplus to this , output from a versacam has longer to dry at the heater and the vinyl/whatever loses temperature slower It is doubtful that whichever shop buys a Versacam would be hassled about the speed as if they wanted a huge production machine , this is not it. Ink carts are the Same as the new rolands use and the figure of 65c per sq ft seems accurate enough in terms of print cost - but even if one is pessemistic and doubles that , its still not bad. Maintenance is minimal - you dont have to flush heads each day or anything like that , just keep it clean. The USB connection seems to cope with the print speed but a network connection would have been nice. Rip is almost the if not exactly the same as the Bigger machines colorip- its a Wasatch and has great features - there are about 80 profiles avaialble for various stuff and a lot of generic profiles work where the specific substrate has none. Its a very very fast rip and allows a huge amount of configurability. What can be printed on : Just about every vinyl and variant you can imagine - the Polyester based mirror gold and silver from some mnfgrs dont work at all and I have had no success at ALL on reflectives and had variable success on some holographics. Polymerics work a little better than monomerics and the print has a beautiful gloss that one doesnt get on coated media. Print density on coloured vinyls is not bad - metallics impart a great metallic sheen to the print but of course there is no white - so printing on dark colours is not an option. Some vinyls like sandblast and frosted print VERY well and one can flood print or print pictures on this very nicely. When double printing (I am not sure if the versacam does a double or a triple strike , its in the RIP ) on some backlit stuff it seems there is a lot of ink put down and some fine detail is lost - this again is a niggle as most of these prints wont be viewed from 5" distances.
Banner prints just fine , very fast and very smoothly. We have used coated and uncoated and various "grades" and types with no problems at all and the samples from the versacam were excellent.
Papers are a breeze , most coated and uncoated papers print really well and both machines work real well on waterproof self adhesive papers (both cut and print) short run paper stickers anyone? We had one paper that almost had a sort of powdery coating and albeit it did print , the print sort of became powdery and could easily be rubbed off , I am of the opinion it is was the coating Stuff like 180/23gm matt and glossy resin coated print beautifully and are totally dry. I have had success with canvases , but not all. Cloth is fine , tho we havent tried huge amounts of this , just some stuff that they use to make promo flags with and some poly stuff on the versacam. Perforated film prints and cuts 100% I have tried some rigid substrates like Rowmark engraving laminates and laquer sprayed aluminum with limited success - the laquer sprayed stuff came out tacky but dried well , most likely slower printing and more heat with a better profile would work. Now one thing I don't know is whether the Versacam will do rigid , the soljets can do up to 1mm thick stuff.
Acetate works well , coated photo quslity inkjet paper and self adhesive vinyl works exceptionally well and some exotica like spectrum light laser engraveable metal tamper proof foil does too. I have tried a lot of cold lamination films which work VERY VERY well , Im not sure of an application for this but there must be one. Some Formicas also work well on the soljet. There is a huge range of other materials that I havent tried , I have all the various material reps coming round to bring me samples to print or print and cut.
IMHO these digital printers are extremely versatile machines and claims made by the manufaturer seem to be pretty much on the nail. The only thing I can't say is how these prints will stand up to extended UV exposure in terms of fading - tho most inks today are pretty good in this respect. I also cannot say what the head life of these printers are and what their long term reliability is.
I must repeat , Im not a Roland agent - just a user - and considering the hassles I have had with my PC thermals , am not a particular fan and am a bit sceptical. However I do think that these printers with the new inks and heaters live up to expectations and the Versacam at it's price , seems to be something that is gonna shake up the markets a little till the next best thing since sliced bread hits the headlines. The digital printer market reminds me a lot of the digital Camera /computer market where as soon as you purchase the latest thing , it's already outdated. It seems to me that Thermal and Inkjet are converging to a large extent , there are some pros and cons to each and as another poster says , no one "printer" can do it all and obviously one bases the purchasing decision on what is important to the particular business. We have done very well out of thermal in the past and still run our machines all day long. Combining a thermal with a low cost print/cut solvent inkjet should actually cover most if not all requirments barring wide output. I cant make any comment about how the thermals like an Edge handle spots vs how the inkjet does it. I was phoned recently by a supplier who is due to demonstrate an A3 printer that takes anything up to 9"s high and prints at 720 dpi on it , curved stuff like golf balls etc - I have no more detais on it and wonder how it works - pricing is $13k or so and it comes from China - I do know Roland had a prototype of something similar I will report back as soon as I have seen it do its tricks Undoubtedly in the next few weeks I will be trying other stuff and will update this VERY preliminary report.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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Yes , but thats at 1440x 1440 resolution , if you use 720 x 720 which is more than adequate - you are looking at 4x that - remember the machine is only a 30" wide printer , thus you can print about 1.3x that in linear meters At the price its pretty good , My soljet does a 1.3 m wide by 3m long banner at very good resolution , full coverage with photos etc in under 8 minutes but costs almost 3x more. There is also another "downside" that will slow the macine down appreciably - if you have zillions of very complex stickers that need die cutting , the cutting COULD take 5x longer then the printing - You could of course buy a roland plotter that has the optical recognition thing (which the versacam has) and it will automatically align to the printer registration marks and cut
The versacam can do this too , you could print , remove , continue printing and then reload when the machine is not that busy for cutting.
I dont think this machine is aimed at the high throughput market .
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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If I purchased this machine, I would probably use it for Banners and Larger Graphics for vehicles and Signage, the Edge that I have would do the bulk of the Decals and Labels, and Special effects. We only print at about 42lpi with the edge for larger graphics anyhow, so the versa camm should be a very nice compliment to our Edge and Graphics Business in general, Thanks for the reviews Rodney.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I still dont understand why anyone would want to wrap a vehicle with 30" strips of vinyl rather than 12 " strips, damn if I wrinkle a large print that can be very costly donthca think?
And a loup? to view a digital print? Are we producing magazine print or signs?
All for the sake of removing "seams" which at 2 feet away are never visible anyway and at 30 miles an hour I challenge ya to pick one out.
Damn good things our ancestors never made ya do over a hand lettered truck job cuz you have "brush" strokes in it. IOAFS
I had a guy complain once becasue I left a bristle in the paint on his truck. and I bet his truck lettering wasnt visible anymore because of it.
Sometimes I think we are so wrapped up in a machine and what IT can do and the next machine can do MORE but is it really necessary or are we just bored with the toys we have?
1400 dpi give me a break like we really need it on signs. The old wall dogs would be laughing in there graves right now at what they were able to get away with.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rob, I agree on some of your points, I would never do without an Edge, but a wider format Machine that costs less to Buy and even less to operate is very desirable. Add to that a shop that has an edge, and it is VERY Desirable.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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A lot of my output is tiny and viewed up close - vehicle wraps and long distance viewed stuff is the micky mouse end of this market - and you are very much mistaken if you think that there AREN'T applications that require the capabilities we are speaking of. I was replying to a specific topic and have taken a lot of time and effort to write a "mini review" and answer others fairly objectivly sharing my experiences , only to have you post a most insulting and patronising reply.
Sure lets all leave fingerprints in the paint and bristles stuck in the brush strokes!!! I want to do my best, improve service to my customers and bask in the pride that comes with knowing you have done an excellent job - just good enough is just NOT good enough for me but if you are happy with mediocrity so be it.
Realise one thing , the signage business has nothing to do with merely flogging signs You sell your customer recogniton , brand awareness , impact and image and this encompasses more than painting letters on walls or whatever a wall dog does.
What exactly did I do to deserve your post?
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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I did not direct my LAST post to you personally, but this one will be.
I will say it all depends on your audience. you obviously have a different audience, albeit you seem to beleive it is above us mickey mouse vehicle wrappers and truck letterers.
I hold a great regard to detail and quality but only when the job warrants it, the audience needs it, and the price tag fits it.
Added:
Even though I dont appologize for my opinions they were not appropriate for the benefit of this thread, for posting them here I appologize. Hey I had a Cranky Day!
[ September 18, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rodney I appreciate the time you took to review this printer. I'm looking at buying a printer like this & end user experiences are extremely valuable to people like me. I think like yourself if you can sell higher quality output to customers who can tell the difference you will do better than those who can't. Your posts would probably have a more appreciative audience on Signweb's digital board http://www.signweb.com/classifieds/ This board here is more like some club for brush painters or something.
-------------------- Bigg Blighh Rip Graphics Milsons Point, NSW Australia www.ripgraphics.com.au Posts: 33 | From: Milsons Point, NSW Australia | Registered: Jul 2000
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My beer goes to Bob Rochon. Very well said and reasoned. Gee, I know the need for vehicle wraps and large printed graphics is just overwhelming all of us, that we deperately need this machine.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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What I Don't understand is the animosity towards this Machine, and or the people who may be interested in it, I just don't get it.... Yes I know that Roland has'nt been up to scratch with The Inkjet Yet, but what if this Machine does what it suppose to? I'm telling you it's going to make a lot of people happy, Gerber Edge is still going to be a Great Machine, It's going to be able to do things that Inkjet just can't do, Ie Spot colors, different sustrates, that the edge can only do. I look forward to see if the roland will live up to it's claim, if it does Great, if it does'nt well that's just to bad, cause another competitor in this Digital printing Field would be great for Pricing, maybe the Prices for these machines would come down a little, and the consumables, afterall there's enough of us Sign People competeing for the Jobs, so maybe it's time for Gerber and Roland to start competeing on a more level playing field.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Yes that's what I want, the prices of quality machine and consumables to come down so that my customers can buy them and do thier jobs themselves, or on anther note, lets let every neanderthal sign maker buy one so we can do the "digital print" by the pound routine. Or even every **** fer brains idiot become designer to buy one and become a "professional" sign shop over night.
Trust me neil its coming faster than we want it to, and I can accept that, but I don't have to like it.
Oh boy I cant wait I wonder I can buy a dentist chair on ebay, hmmmm then I can be a dentist!! and I'll do fillings for 99cents and put all the dentists out of business, those money hungry bastards.
[ September 20, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ultimately, it is my responsibility to offer my clients a product that best suits their needs while maintaining their budget. If I can not service my client in this manner, I would rather refuse the job and refer them to a reputable company who can. Whether it be hand painted graphics, digital printing of some other sort of media, it is up to me to "make the call" and insure what I sell my client is going to work right. There will always shops that sell by the pound just like there will always be shops that get $2500 for a 4'x8' mdo. Somewhere in the middle is a happy customer that got what they wanted. So, if you want to wrap a truck using your baby food machine, go right ahead. I'd rather use a more durable and cost effective graphic material. This way, I'll be writing the invoice sooner, with a happy client, and putting more profit in my pocket. Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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ROLAND has come close to the "color management" problem with it's 8-color FJ series inkjet. If "color management" issues could be somehow totally solved (RGB to CMYK), SPOT color output would no longer be necessary. Ciombine that forthcoming technology with print/cut, there will no longer be much use for thermal transfer. We're not that far off now with a true 3-5 year outdoor durable photo quality print with totally accurate color reproduction that will print on up to 3" thick substrates (uncoated) and contour cut too! The VersaCAMM is the next step in this direction. ROLAND seems to be the leader in all this from the viewpoint of a small sign shop. Their prices are affordable and their quality is right up there. This is why I believe INKJET is the future!
[ September 20, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
posted
Exactly my point Checkers, thats why I have a hot bid on a dentist chair as we type, I oughta be filling teeth to meet my clients budget by the end of next week,after all it is my responsibilty right? making them happy and smiling with silver sparkles all day long. And I'm not going to even use the standard fillings, it seems that when one-shot discontinued using lead, the lead market went south and you can buy that stuff for dirt cheap now.
If things go as planned I ought to be expanding and adding a drive-thru window..." fillings to go"
Or how about a Mobil filling truck I can drive to you and fill your teeth, just think no more waiting in an office for 3 hours. actually I think I'm on to something here.
as kissy always says woooo hooooooo!!!
[ September 20, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I wonder I can buy a dentist chair on ebay, hmmmm then I can be a dentist!! and I'll do fillings for 99cents and put all the dentists out of business, those money hungry bastards.
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