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Does any one own or has used the Summa DC3 Im possibly looking at Buying one and would like to hear some feedback from some users who have one.. In the old shop we had 2 Edges and I do like them but I wouldn't mind getting a unit that prints wider and the dc3 seem reasonably priced.. Any feedback would be great...Like is there Banding in the colors like the old roland use to do Etc.. Oh By the way.. Hi were Moved and building the new shop now.. Ohh what fun.. Bill
[ September 10, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: William DeBekker ]
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William, I just got one and another friend in central California just got his too. They are great. I got rid of my pc60. Most of my stuff is for vehicles. This is a great printer. Very clean prints and contour cuts with 1 push of the button. Also no babysitting the different colors like the Gerber Edge. From what I've researched, the Summa has a "bullet proof" head. I hope so.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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I understand that the DC3 and all their printers don't have near the spot color and specialty foil products as the Gerber....
A guy I know bought one and had terrible and unresolveable banding problems....I told him to get an Edge, but he got the DC3 and regrets it now....
But I must say, this guy isn't a sign guy, he made a product that required graphics and decided he could "do his own thing" quicker and cheaper than purchasing product from a pro. I think he now understands that there is more to making good looking graphics than meets the eye.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albeit I havent seen the output , There is a GCC nautilus which is a 4 head thermal printer - and according to some , the running costs are real cheap. Try do a search on GCC Nautilus - there is an australin site - Teksys that has a comparative cost breakdown of the Nautilus , dc3 ,edge , pc60 , pc 600. However Roland has just announced a 30" print and cut solvent inkjet (4 colour machine able to print on uncoated media) and this is most likely going to make huge inroads into the thermal print/cut market - its running costs are substantially lower than thermal prints , AFAIK its in the $11k bracket.
I have 2 thermal printers and aquired a Soljet Po II upgraded to a "true" solvent macine) which is really a lot better than my thermals. It prints better , cuts better and is about 10x as fast and about 1/10th the cost and doing large stuff is a breeze. One doesnt agonise about heads etc. Thermal printers are really useful for small die cut stuff , once you get to bigger stuff , you cannot compete with larger format solvent printers in terms of price or quality for that matter. If you think a thermal is fine for unlaminated vehicle graphics , think again , cos no matter how you print , all vehicle graphics need lamination due to abraision/chemical attack when washing etc. One advantage to thermal is the ability to print gold , silver and white or perhaps for t-shirt transfers etc - but if one is doing t-shirts , the much cheaper way to do em is Dye Sub. I have been using various thermal printers for over 10 years and would NEVER go back to them. I feel thermal technology is not the way to go these days? But thats just my 2c. Your mileage may vary (Having said that , our thermals still work all day long on smaller less critical jobs)
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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If you're happy with your EDGEs and a wide format thermal solution, why wouldn't you consider the Gerber MAXX2?
For starters Todd is right about there being a much wider materials/foils selection for the Gerber MAXX2 -- and the gap is about to get wider.
There's also no new software to learn (assuming that you're running Gerber Omega)...virtually no learning curve.
The thing is built like a tank and you'll enjoy the walk-away-operation.
Compared to inkjets...no maintenance, solvents, no fumes, no stink, no ventillation, no mess...no drying issues...no drying time. MAXX2 prints are ready to install as soon as they are printed.
Lastly, don't be fooled by the "I get two machines for the price of one" idea presented by printers with integrated cutters. The reality is that these machines are never both a printer and a cutter at the same time. You'll get more production, faster throughput and greater production flexibility out of an offline print-to-cut solution.
For any of you that are planning to attend the ConSAC show next week, be sure to stop by the ND GRAPHICS "X-TREME" exhibit and get a demonstration of our new eclipse P2C print-to-cut solution -- which will work with just about any digital printer on the market. Ask for me and I'll slip you a few extra X-Bucks for identifying yourself as a Letterhead.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The DC3 is a good thermal printer and even though Gerber may offer more spot colors, the other features really outperform the MAXX (sorry Jon ). I'm looking into the Nautilus this week, talking to the dealers and some end users. I'll have data on it by next week.
Now the EX isn't really a "true solvent" though it does perform like on and does print to uncoated media. The plus side is you don't have nearly the ventilation issue.
Rodney, I saw on the Roland board that you've got yours up and running. Give us the scoop, we're all pretty excited to hear about it. But it is six color, not four color - right? Or are you referring to the upcoming smaller version? What have you heard on this? I'd thought we were still a few months away at least... I'd love to hear about that one! If what I'm hearing is true, Roland may be on the verge of seriously shaking up the market...
On your chrome application, have you considered printing on a clear PVC and overlaying it on a chrome poly?
P.S. I just found your other lengthy post and the data on the 30" EX, but you might want to repost some of that info here for other's edification.
Jon, What's the word on the Jetster? With Mutoh upgrading their Falcon II Outdoor to use the Eco-Plus inks similar to the Roland, is Gerber planning any readjustment since they chose the older Falcon Outdoor?
Please qualify your statement about "the other features" that outperform the MAXX.
BTW - Foil colors are only the beginning...look at the GROWING list of approved media for the MAXX2 if you want to draw comparisons. More products to print means more products to sell.
For example: We'll be running Gerber's new MAXX BANNER at the ConSAC show in Toronto next week.
The samples we've already printed are HOT.
Sorry, I'm not at liberty to discuss new models or inks for Jetster. Your best guess at what might be coming down the pike is probably on the money, though.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The biggest advantage of the EX upgrade is drying time - it is virtually instant - the only normal product I have had to wait for is coated banner (drys in 20 mins or so) and I have to qualify this too - the output is slightly tacky and is not destroyed by touching either. Coated vinyl media is almost instantly dry and uncoated media is totally dry. I have tried a lot of products and have had a lot of success - some of the stuff is VERY exotic type material (Like a laserable tamper proof foil called spectrum-light) There are some products I still have to try and some that dont work at all. We had no success on the mirror vinyl and reflective. Papers , coated and uncoated generally work well , most vinyl work excllently , however some cheaper monomeric brands do not print with the crispness and colour of the premium polymerics. Ink opacity is not good enough to print on vary dark vinyls and if you use the overprint option on cheaper vinyls , the print loses definition and is not 100% dry - too much ink is being laid down. Its still a 6 colour machine , the new 30" is the 4 colour machine. Output speeds are as impressive as before, I just did a 3 meter x 1200m banner in under 10 mins at 450 x 360 mode (the fastest) and the output is excellent - there is the slightest hint of banding (I'm being supercritical here) but its most likely a calibration problem on my machine and is only noticeable if you are right up close. The fact that one can use cheaper media is not that relevent here in South Africa , cos the coated media we get is at most $6 per sq meter and some of the premium uncoated vinyls are more expensive - the extra range and drying times are the big improvement. Colours and resolution on polymeric is exceptional , print durability is too - on all uncoated media we destroyed the nedia instead of scratching off the print when usigna blade to try get the print off - rubbing with a wet finger has no effect at all , unlike coated stuff which smudges. I have not tried any solvents on the media to see if the print rubs off. The coated media prints a lot better at low resolutions with the new inkset and heater bar than before. In my opinion , the print quality at highest resolution on Ploymerics is better than anything I have seen , the print is glossy and it seems almost like dye sub or continous tone.
After the EX upgrade , the machine really comes into its own in that one is free of prorietory media and the range of media that can be printed is vastly expanded , there are 60+ profiles for most of the major's vinyls, banner, cloth , perf film etc and a lot of these profiles work well with unprofiled media brands of the same type.
A big plus is with lamination - we can now laminate instantly (We laminate for vehicles , for media that is goiung to be handled a lot and for various effects) I have even trid some cold pressure laminates in the machine with acceptable results.
Printing on silver or other metallics (not the chrome) vinyl is very nice , it gives the print a metalic sheen albeit colour is not correct cos of the background vinyl colour.
The only issue I have noticed is that I have lost all my coated profiles and the artistic mode (1440 x 1440) has diassapeared (I think cos of the extra ink laydown) apart from that , the only other bugbear is that I have an almost full inkset of the old inks which I can no longer use , however there are folk out there with machines that can use emand I will sell them to one of those folk at a discounted price. One other issue is that the minimum width of the media has to be 50 cm (20") otherwise the machine complains - you can just hit enter when it does to force it to accpt narrower media (Roland say that the narrower stuff wont heat properly or can result in the heater overheating - we haven't found this at all) or another workaround to have the machine accept narrower stuff is to use 3 of the rollers on it and set the last roller to a width the machine will accept- it sees the media length as longer.
Without the inkset , my upgrade cost me $700 for the heater and the labour - our local agents sort of subsidise it. I think the price mentioned on the Roland boards of $3995.00 including an inkset and some media is very high. I fail to see why Roland america are only offering the upgrade in a few months time - the owners of Pro II non EX machines , IMHO , should be sorted out NOW!!!! I would have been p'd off if I had to wait 3 months. The upgrade Job took about 5 hours to do and went very smoothly - this
The heater is integrated with the machine and goes into a sort of "idle" mode whan the machine sleeps (to about 27-30 degrees) and come up to temp quickly (2-3 minutes) when the machine wakes up.
As to the comment about the messiness etc of inkjets - I have NEVER had to even touch my machine in terms of maintenance at all - I have never removed the covers or anything - the machine does it all itself and the new inks have less odour than the old. We are capable , with our laminator of applying a carrier based self adhesive onto anything and I intend to try using a lot of non traditional materials to print on and cut We have found a trick too - if you spray something with a clear solvent based laquer you can print on it quite well with the new inks - we tried some cromodek (a very thin white coated steel plate used for signage) and got good results tho a full sheet of the stuff will require some sort of front and back support as it is rigid I havent tried backlit media or the perforated film or fabrics yet , but will do so shortly. Yes , I have used clear on mirror , but its not the effect I want , what I want to do is print directly on mirror , then make a male/female embossing die on my lasers and selectively emboss various portions of the graphic and then dome it , for a 3d effect within the dome This is mainly used for vehicle graphics and computer case labels etc. I can still do this with an overmination , but its now a 2 part process , I have to print with resistration marks , laminate onto mirror and reload to cut. There is smething else I am going to try , and that is to load printed media into my PC 60 and print gold or silver and try cut. The registration on cut and print , despite rolands disclaimer that with the heater bar it might not be that accurate, is spot on. Even when printing the registration marks and reloading the media it is perfect , I printed a sheet of teeny little Aids ribbons (about 8mm across and 12 mm high) with a very complex die line and reloaded and cut them , any misregistration would have been seen very easily and they cut perfctly much to my amazement. Yes , this machine will shake up the market as one has the advantages of Solvent printing without the disadvantages and with the addition of speed , cutting and print quality at an "affordable" price. I think the smaller one will be even more of a "shake up" as it is very affordable (Here its about $11k) and the fact thats its 4 colours , slower and wont do very wide stuff wont be a major issue considering the fact that to do those would cost $19k more. I have nothing to do with roland or any other brand , and I still do use thermal machines , so my comments must be viewed as coming from a user point of view.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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Jon, "Please, Sir. I'm going to have to ask you to calm down..." Have you seen Anger Management with Jack Nicholsen and Adam Sandler? It is really funny, and a good movie to boot.
You gotta stop lashing out, you don't have to be so defensive...but just for you, I will be looking for the MAXX2 at SGIA to do a serious first hand eval. (among all the others). And if it kicks a**, I'll take back all the nasty things I never said about it .
Thanks again Rodney for all the excellent feedback on the EX. Though, moreso than the ProII guys having to wait, the 500/600 owners are in the real pickle. It would behoove them to come up with a fast action plan to take care of them somehow, maybe a tradein or something...
BTW, where is that Roland Japan site? I've found the Japanese language one, but there's little English...
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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Kenneth, are you planning to review the Matan thermal printers as well? I've recently received their 16" sprint and so far it's been headache free, and an easy learning curve. Their 36" & 40" models would make an interesting comparison (albeit expensive) with the maxx2 and dc3 printers.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
There wasn't an angry word in my previous post. If anything I was probably a bit "direct" because I am up-to-my eyeballs in ConSAC show details with one week remaining...and you know that I just don't think that (sorry...being direct again) vague, unqualified comments are helpful to anyone -- so I asked you to qualify your comments (that's all). How can you even make those kinds of comments without having evaluated the Gerber MAXX2 first hand?
Mike:
To be honest, I would have to check and don't have time for the moment. It's not a rocket by any means, but (as I am sure you wil agree) print speed is just one factor affecting throughput. If this is still an active topic in nine or ten days, I will check and update you.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Sorry Jon, ... can't help it ... just playing 'devil's advocate'
Perhaps Kenneth is referring to speed as one of "the other features" where, on paper at least, the DC3 outperforms the Maxx2 by a factor of 35/24 or ~45%. You're right to say that print speed is only one factor affecting throughput, other factors would include Rip speed and ease of file preparation, I really cant comment on how fast Omega rips vs Flexi or other rip, Kenneth should be able to supply that info; however print speed is certainly an important factor. You have to remember I chose the Matan which is 10x faster than the Maxx. Time = Money.
That Matan printer of yours is (admitedly) fast...but not everyone really needs the speed. By "not everyone", I mean that most small commercial signshops don't.
People often like to point to the speed of that machine of yours when projecting Return On Investment: which can be very misleading...because most small commercial signshops are unlikely to sell enough printed product to actually run the Matan machine to capacity.
I know you enough to respect your business savvy...and I am sure that you chose the right printer for your particular needs (and those of your clients). For most signshops, however, a Gerber EDGE is a better investment for many reasons...but particularly -- in terms of this tangent -- in terms of ROI.
For Gerber EDGE owners who have been satisfied with what the machine has done for their business, the Gerber MAXX2 is a logical consideration for wide format printing (for reasons described well above). Plus, from an ROI standpoint, the shorter your learning curve (which, for an EDGE owner the MAXX2's is as short as an hour or two) the faster you can print for profit and the faster you can achieve ROI.
My advice: Explore your options, fully...consider features and benefits from a return on investment perspective...and make an informed decision.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Whoops Hit the Hornets nest... Thanks for all the replies. The main reason I ruled out the MAXX was the 40k Price tag Plus then have to buy another plotter 10k.. I already have 2 plotters. But they are Friction fed so alingment is an Issue... I was considering the Rolands but they are limited as only CMYK my main client That I will be using this for uses Spot lime green. I also didnt see that in the DC3 eathier though I havent checked Zero 9s line yet. The Natulas looks intresting will do more research on that. But Probaly will go back to the Edge just for the color choice and ease of use and a 3rd plotter but at least all that is under 20k. I was looking at the larger machines as I have a few clients that would like to do some body wraps and I wanted to avoid tiling so much but for the price diff we can deal or just Outsource the printing for awhile.
If one of your two plotters is a Gerber FasTrack 1300 or a Gerber Odyssey, these are suited to contour cutting images printed on a MAXX2.
If you can't afford the price tag (or monthly lease payments...that's one thing...but if you can, then don't rule out the MAXX2 without comparing ROI with the other wide format thermal printers you're considering.
Good luck!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I didn't want to jump into the hornet's nest, but I need to apologize for having products that aren't advertised.
We (Summa ... Summa DC3) have what you'd think of as lime green, which we call Hot Green. It's one of our recently added "High Impact Colors."
It's not on a Web site as yet, since we've been working overtime on the new one that we launched last Friday (http://www.summausa.com). And the site that replaces, SummaDirect, http://www.summastore.com. We hope to have all the colors added soon; and they'll be in our next catalog.
Also, we have a Zero % Lease on Summa DC3 at the moment. After asking for a sample of a print-and-cut Hot Green print, or anything else (e-mail to sales@summa.us), I think you'll want to keep the Summa DC3 in the running. Do consider your options, but please don't count us out just yet :-)
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'd like to make a recommendation. Create two files- one utilizing spot colors and a second one utilizing CMYK.
Send copies of them to each distributor/manufacturer and have them to send you sample prints so that you can compare print quality.
The two things I look for are the presence of "stitching" (banding caused by overlapping print passes) and gradient smoothness.
Stitching problems can hide pretty easily in a CMYK photo, but will become more obvious on a spot-color print.
Stair-step banding in gradients can be hidden by enlarging the dot size. What I would want to know is how small a LPI can I print before I have problems with gradient banding (not to be confused with "stitch banding").
On other matters, I'm not too keen on having my plotter built on the printer. If the printer breaks down, I end up losing the plotter as well. I like having my printer and plotter seperate. That is just my personal experience.
The other thing is repair. Its not a matter if the printhead breaks down, but when. And when it does, what will it take and what will it cost to get it fixed?
Every machine has its pro's and con's.
I've been looking at a wider printer as well and had been leaning toward the same machine Mike got (the 16" Matan). I've also been looking hard at their DFS system which laminates, cuts and weeds as the Matan prints. It has many strong points. The only thing I don't like is that it can only print up to 4 colors on any job. If you are doing a combination of process and spot or running more than 4 spot colors, you may run into problems.
As for the DC3, I've heard a lot of good things about them. I like it's setup much better than Gerber's Maxx & Maxx-2. It's stitching is much better than the Maxx-1. However, based on some sample prints that I saw earlier this year, the Maxx-2 does a better job of stitching spot colors. Of course, there is the matter that Summa prints wider than the Maxx.
Another thing to consider is your electrical hookup. Can you run any of these machines from a standard 110 outlet or are you going to need a 220? How many amps are they going to pull? What will it cost you to get some additional wiring pulled for your new machine?
Just some things to consider regardless of your choice.
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Sorry I've been out of pocket, looks like this is a great thread.
Jon, I can sympathize - I know how rough tradeshows are Yes my current data is based on comparisons of published specs and configurations, I've done a lot of homework on over 50 printers with user surveys on most of them. I'll be adding many more printers to my next update at the end of September and hope to go over them all first hand at SGIA.
Mike, the Matan's are fantastic machines, but I usually don't mention them in casual conversations due to their much higher prices. They are very fast with beautiful output, but as Jon said, most folks don't have the volume to support them.
Hey Jim! I'll have to check out your new site, haven't been there recently. You never answered my email from a week or two ago...
If spot colors, printing to uncoated vinyl, and outdoor durability are your main considerations then evaluate your other output requirements. Each of these printers has its advantages in certain areas. Do the homework and good luck!
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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good point on the Chiller Glenn. We recommend them on our routers where compressed air is used to run the Automatic Tool Changers as well. perhaps you can let everyone know why a Chiller is an important investment...
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Well, lets just say there is nothing more fun than having moisture get into a nice expensive machine. A cheap moisture trap just isn't gonna do the job.
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Well, lets just say there is nothing more fun than having moisture get into a nice expensive machine. A cheap moisture trap just isn't gonna do the job.
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). I'm looking into the Nautilus this week, talking to the dealers and some end users. I'll have data on it by next week.
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