Is there a formula or recommendations on pricing gold-leaf lettering? The last couple of proposals for signs I've done includes upgrading to gold leaf, but I really don't know how to price it.
Do you charge by the square inch? What if you are leafing gemini letters? How do you know how much leaf you would use on a 6" letter? I know as I gain experience, I will learn this, but for now you can sign me......
...clueless in Carnduff
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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The old standby was $4 per upright inch / per letter, but those days are long gone. I don't trust formulas much. These days most of my gold leaf upcharges are for carved letters. I try to figure how many sheet of leaf it will take to cover an average letter on the job, times the number of letters, times cost per sheet of gold, (currently about $1.50), then double it for markup. That covers the materials. For labor, the sizing time is the same as the lettering time would have been, so all I have to add on is a flat fee for the additional gilding, burnishing and cleanup time. Any other special effects like turning or outlining are a separate time figure too.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The Contractors Pricing Book has a pretty good guide to use as a reference. Call or e-mail if you have some specific sizes and I will look it up for you.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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Joe, where are you buying your leaf? $1.50 per leaf sounds very high, unless that's what you are charging, rather than paying. My most recent leaf purchase cost $326 for a pack. That's $.65 per leaf, for 23K German patent leaf, and loose is a few bucks less.
I always price carved signs as including leaf. My formula is based on square footage and the per square foot price increases as the sign gets smaller. For example, an 18 square foot carved sign, double faced, is $4000, or $222 per square foot. That includes carved copy with leaf, up to twenty letters per side. More than 20 letters per side are $12 (up to 6" high) and $20 per letter for over 6" letters. If a customer does NOT want gold leaf, I take off 10 to 15%, tops, (and only if they ask!)
On flat signs, I have a two-tiered scale, depending on complexity and content (a sign that identifies or advertises a business is always a higher scale than a parking sign). For gold leaf, there's an upcharge of 25%, and that's always on the higher price scale (nobody has asked me for a gold-leafed parking sign lately.) This system allows me to do quotes fairly quickly, without a lot of math to screw me up - always a good thing.
Gemini letters are a whole different animal. For 6" gilded letters I charge $110 each, installed. Larger letters more, smaller a little (not much) less. Hope this helps.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Cam, my latest prices here work out to approx 1.32/leaf if I buy a whole pack. That is approx .94 in USD. This is for 23K surface gold. 23K patent gold is slighly less expensive. Is patent the same quality as surface, and is it easier to use?
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Suelynn....for all practicle purposes, when doing surface leaf...patent is as good as loose glass leaf. It is much easier to use, especially if you are in an area with the air moving, or outdoors. An added feature, you can use the parts left on the paper.
On incised letters or convex letters and shapes...you are better off using loose leaf.
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Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Suelynn, Heres what you do. Using 1-Shot fast gold size, brush on smoothely, let it sit till tack, then apply 23Kt. "patent" gold leaf. Patent gold is alot easier to use. Save all the little left- over pieces for the cracks, and apply to the "holidays".
Patent gold is for, "Gilding in the Wind", as the ole`timers say...The leaf is attached to a paper backer, and is released when it comes in contact with the size, and is of the same quality as the "Loose" leaf.
After the leaf is down, burnish it with a 100% cotton ball, and polish it to perfection.
The technique I just described is called, surface gilding, and is seen on many types of sinage; sandblasted signs, foam signs, MDO, and even on glass...
Good luck. -Rich
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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What I do is charge by the amount of sheets of gold I will use. I divide the number of sheets in a pack and multiply by 4. Figure the size of a square and the size of the job and go from there, and don't sell yourself short, you always need more then you think
The type of size you use is important too. The longer it takes to dry, the more brilliant the gold will appear, at least that has been my experience.
Good Luck,
MC
-------------------- Mike Clayton M C Grafix Custom Lettering New Jersey (again) Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
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Suelynn, Here are some steps that might help you get much better results.
Get your surface as slick and shiny as you would like your gold to appear. I usually use a yellow oil based primer followed the next day by burnishing it with a cotton ball. It will shine with little effort. I then apply my oil based sizing as thinly and evenly as I can, making sure that their are no puddles of size to slow drying. I use quick size and have great results. I only apply sizing for what gold I can lay in 20 minutes so all my gold should appear the same. Use the knuckle test to check readiness. You will not leave a print that way, and there is little skin oil on a knuckle. It should feel little or no tack when touched, but drag like gripping when you pull your knuckle across it. It usually will squeak a bit. I use patent leaf for all applications except glass, and have learned to cut my leaf in several different width pieces and even some pointed pieces to get to corners. I find patent leaf much faster and less frustrating than loose leaf. You learn just the right amount of pressure to apply to the back to keep your gold bright. A soft gilding brush is necessary, but I use a light finger to seat a lot of gold in tight areas. Don't touch it with a bare hand as it will oil the gold. Just use the backing paper. You will also be able to spot the holidays a lot easier by viewing them through the backing tissue. It knocks down the glare, and you can spot them much better. Don't burnish for at least 24 hours, and don't overpressure the burnish.
As far as counting gold, I just look at the letter, and count the leaves that it will take to cover it. They are a little over 3 inch square, 25 leaves per book, and 500 per pack.... Good luck, Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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I won't plug someone here who isn't a merchant, but if you want the phone # for my gold leaf supplier, e-mail me. I pay around $325 a pack, and that includes shipping.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Cam Bortz: Joe, where are you buying your leaf? $1.50 per leaf sounds very high
Ok Cam, you caught me being lazy. Truth is I never figured out my true cost per sheet, I just picked a number I knew would cover it. My partner Dick always orders the gold and its an oddball, 23k (Japanese I think), slightly oversized loose sheets but fewer sheets per pack, which Dick tells me works out to the same coverage as 'normal' sheets. Our cost per pack is something like $265 delivered. I probably should figure out the true cost one of these days. In the meantime, at least my ignorance has me erring in my own favor. Still seem to run out plenty fast...
On another note, to Suelynn or anyone contemplating golf leaf for the first time - a little has been mentioned about loose vs patent. My solution is to stock only loose gold. For times when a backing sheet is helpful I have some 4" squares or wax paper handy. You can smooth wax paper over a loose sheet and pick that sucker right up just like patent. We find that very handy for gilding borders. We used to cut the gilded wax paper into strips till we found it was a lot faster to simply rub down each successive strip from the full sheet. You loose a little gold, but gain a lot of speed. Whatever works.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Joe, nice tip on the wax paper Myself, I prefer loose over patent. Here's one for you. On your borders, try some roll gold. You can lay a three or four foot section down in the blink of an eye and if you don't blink when you're doing it, the gild will be perfect. If you like saving time gilding you'll love this. The waste is almost nil too if you get the right width.
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