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I, myself am not interested in doing this in any way other than a personal venture, or the way that Joe has outlined. I somehow believe that the professionals in this corner of the business, ARE the artists. I somehow don't feel compensated by someone giving me a free CD for the rights to publish them. This is my gift to my friends, and I don't have interest in taking it "public". I already have enough proprietary artwork in the public's hands at my expense. I have spent my life in the art business, and have a good background in legal knowledge of such. Most fonts are open to the public free of charge, from many websites. Legal or not, they are there, and available under a host of different names. I would like for someone to explain how 90% of the fonts even deserve a copyright or protection, as they are usually only slight variations of the original alphabet and many with just a namechange. The business has pretty much been "done in" the last few years and not a lot of ethics left out there. For those artist professionals who know the difference, I commend you. The world of clipart has pretty much doomed the artist's world .....I hope nobody takes my little rant personally, but instead uses it for evaluating the overall art market's ethics, and directions.
[ September 03, 2003, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: Jack Davis ]
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Hi Letterville, I saw my name mentioned a few times in this thread. I think the idea of gathering a bunch of original artwork sounds good on the surface, but it has tons of overhead and quite a few pitfalls to work out.
To me, I see two major issues here. First, the compilation of the CD including adjusting and quality controlling all the images, followed by a booklet or PDF document, web page(s), converting file format and so forth. That is a huge project and could take hundreds of hours! Same if done for a web site. I don't know who would actually handle the orders, but that takes an hour to two every day, plus all the paperwork, Visa Card receipts and so forth. Along with that, the person would need to keep up with all the sales information and royalties. I have always said that the digitizing is less work (and more fun) than the follow up effort to get it market ready.
Others have touched on it here, but I will expand a little on the second issue. Dave Simpson sent me a few pages of designs someone else had sent him as "original" to be included on one of his new CDs. A large portion of the ones he sent for me to review came from one of my collections. The "artist" had simply stretched some, slanted some, or welded two images together and were then claiming them as their own. Luckily, Dave rejected them, along with all the rest of the images from that person. Quite a few of the images in my CDs come from public domain sources, however, the actual digitizing data is my property. Others can find, digitize, and clean up public domain images, but I don't think it is fair to use my outlines to create others.
If someone does take on the project, I would certainly be willing to donate a few of mine to it, but I would likewise hope the project would not include derivitive images from my CDs. I've spent the better part of the past year digitizing a new CD (still not ready yet). We're talking about close to 800 hours of digitizing. Needless to say, I am quite proud of the effort, but also very possessive of the data.
Personally, I would rather see the project tackled as a "Letterville" endorsed site. The images, web storage, and bandwidth would be someone elses problem (not Steve's). If a few images appear that were derivitives or not original, they could be quickly removed. Copyrighted images that make it to a CD would not be able to removed until it was too late. Of course, there would be no money in it for the person nor to Letterville, so I don't see how the initial machanics would work.
I applaud this board (and Mayor) in its efforts to control the spread of copyrighted clip art and fonts. I used to spend quite a bit of time trying to explain my side of the fence. Helping one person by giving away art hurts others. When you are basically a one man operation, the hurt comes quick and goes deep.
Sincerely, Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Mike, Thanks for jumping in on this thread - your comments are always appreciated. Regarding public domain, how is it determined: a copyright time limit? For example, I scanned and digitized a font from the Atkinson book for my own use. How would I be sure it's in the public domain, and would I be able to make this available for use in a possible Letterville collection? Seems I once heard that something can be copyrighted twice for a period of 27 years each, and then becomes public domain. Can you enlighten us?
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Sonny, Copyright protection on art design, lasts for 25 years past the death of the maker. It is only granted once, and even if transferred by license ends on that date.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Sonny and Jack, The copyright law is complex, and there are quite a few variables. Many parts have changed that now take effect on newer work that were not in covered on the older pieces. I asked Todd at Signs of the Times (now at the museum) and he had his staff lawyer give him the opinion that I generally use. They told me I would be absolutely safe with designs and elements that are 75 years old or older. ST also gave me permission to use work in the Sam Kamin Electrical Sign Sketchbook. It didn't have a copyright date in it, so I got permission just to be sure. Many of those pieces are in the popular Main Street Collection.
Some of the old books published by Signs of the Times were republished in the '80s by ST, but after the original 75 year span of registering, extending and following up on the copyrights, I don't think the old book images are protected anymore. If you look over the copyright in the Dover books, they don't claim copyrights on the images, but as a book as a whole.
You can read the information below that Danny Baronian found on the US Copyright site. Even if some of the artwork was created, let's say 60 years ago, the copyright holder had to follow a bunch of strict guidelines and renew the copyright at the appropriate times for them to still be protected. Consult your own lawyer!
Here goes: U.S. Copyright site:
Works Originally Created and Published or Registered before January 1, 1978.
Under the law in effect before 1978, copyright was secured either on the date a work was published with a copyright notice or on the date of registration if the work was registered in unpublished form. In either case, the copyright endured for a first term of 28 years from the date it was secured. During the last (28th) year of the first term, the copyright was eligible for renewal. The Copyright Act of 1976 extended the renewal term from 28 to 47 years for copyrights that were subsisting on January 1, 1978, or for pre-1978 copyrights restored under the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), making these works eligible for a total term of protection of 75 years. Public Law 105-298, enacted on October 27, 1998, further extended the renewal term of copyrights still subsisting on that date by an additional 20 years, providing for a renewal term of 67 years and a total term of protection of 95 years.
So.....a lot depends on whether the work was originated prior to 1978 and whether the copyright holder did his/her homework. Clear as mud? Jack Davis made the blanket statement that the copyright expires 25 years after the death of the originator...but that probably only applies in recent work and under a smaller scope of circumstances. Consult a lawyer!
As stated before, I don't own the old art, but I do own the computerized data that is on my CDs. Of course, there is a lot of MY own artwork included on the CDs, too. Many of the original images I worked from were no larger than a quarter, some as small as a dime. Most were not square, symmetrical, or very clean. I spend hours on each ornament getting it right. Thirty different people can digitize the same element and none of them would be the same. They might look the same or similar, but the points and handles would all be different.
A critic might suggest that I am making money from work done by an artist that will never see a dime, other than the money they made from the original book. I look at it differently, of course. I spent a fortune on a bunch of old books that contain wonderful images created by talented artists. By finding, cleaning them up and digitizing the art, I am making them available to a lot of people who will never have a chance to see or access them otherwise. That effort takes a lot of time and expense, and I hope to make that up through the sale of the CDs. Each time I digitize one of the ornaments, it strikes me that I am extending their heritage, plus the effort I am making should outlive me.
Hope this information helps! Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi, I'm back. Wow, it looks like the appropriate big whigs are now assembled - this topic has some teeth!
First of all, to Dave Simpson's question from page 1 - Absolutely yes, all works must be created 'from scratch' to be considered, with the creator stipulating such in a certificate of authorship, From the concerns posted, I believe it would be better to exclude anything that was 'altered' or derived from any other source.
I didn't envision this as some ultimate LETTERHEAD mind-blowing collection, but more everyday, common elements that we tend to need over and over, like the lag screw, S-hook and plywood clip examples I showed. They were things I needed that I couldn't readily find in other collections so it was more efficient to make them myself. When it comes to real, representational artwork, that is usually done as part of someone's logo and not available to share. Mainly what I have are things like generic vehicle outlines, structural elements like concrete footer diagrams and posts, hardware and brackets, and some ribbons and swishes. I also have rope border and chain border 'fonts' I've shared here before, that can be pretty handy. But thats about it...nothing I spent hundreds of hours on. Nothing earth shaking, just clean, functional and definitely original. If there was an ongoing project though, I would be encouraged to develop some more ambitious pieces.
Whatever the eventual outcome, one thing I can do now is assemble the pieces I have and provide a link to them for download and review. I may be able to accept other submissions too, but I'll start with just my own stuff and take it from there. Give me a couple days since I just got off the road. I'll post a link shortly. -Joe-
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I recently received a FedEx package containing artwork that some moron wanted to consider publishing with us. About half of the 1000+ images he had burned to a CD were Vector Art images from my own Mega Collection. Go figure.
Regards,
Andrew Holmes
-------------------- Andrew Holmes Vector Art Inc Pacific Grove, CA 93950
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