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who made the first computerized signmaking equipment and what year.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I do not know the exact answer to this question (or, for that matter, to many others as well), but here goes my experience...
In late 1982, Gerber introduced the Signmaker III for approximately $10,000. Shortly before that, at a NESA show in Houston, I had seen a $25,000 computerized machine that cut vinyl lettering. I have no idea who was the manufacturer. When Gerber introduced theirs for 40% of the cost of the other, we were an easy sale.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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thanks someone was telling me that there was one out in the early 70's and i did not know about it.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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and i heard it somewhere that 3M was backing gerber when they designed a sign cutter.........
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Gerber did in fact develop the Signmaker III as a result of their background in automated textile cutting.
Not positive but the introduction year was 1982 or 83. I was at the very first demonstration that Gerber put on in Long Island at a Holiday Inn with about 30 other sign shops attending.
I knew right then and there that it would change the future of signmaking forever. I bought mine within a few months of that demo and never looked back.
Hard to believe its been 20 years since that first demo. The industry has come a long way.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
There is no date on this website but Gerber is given credit for the first vinyl cutter. Check out this Beacon website for an answer: Judy History
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2621 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here is a side note to the above info I posted.
The way I understand it (this is not first hand, only what I have been told by 2 different sign makers) is that these first machines were vvvvery slow. Ken (Alvey Sign) had at one time as many as 10 machines. Late in the afternoon he would load each machine with the color he needed to cut (some I suppose used the same color) for the next day. The cutters would work into the night on thier assigned task.
In the morning Ken would come in and weed the freshly cut vinyl and put together his signs for the day, and I suppose do his installs. Then in the afternoon the process would start all over.
Alvey signs is one of the largest sign companies in Indiana (and surounding area). They do just about any imaginable type of sign work.
One of thier bigger contracts is that they do all of Atlas Van Lines trailers, and I believe most if not all of thier trucks. Atlas is also based here in Evansville.
Just thought you might like to know....
-------------------- Troy "Metalleg" Haas 626 Kingswood Dr Evansville,In 47715 Posts: 1100 | From: Evansville,Indiana, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The Gerber Signmaker was developed in 1982. I bought my first one in 1983. It sold for $7,500. It was the first "affordable" system for cutting vinyl lettering.
It was not the first system however for which (I think) URW would get the credit with their Signus signmaking system. I think Gregory, Inc. was selling output from it before the introduction of the SignMaker and may well have been the first US customer for the German made Signus.
We have copies of GSP's original patent papers in our files. The most notable thing about them is that the original design used a heated tip for its cutting rather than a tangential blade which is what was actually used once the system was released for sale. The heat tip was used extensively by the old TechnoArts Corp. in their plotters, which were Iolines adapted to hold the heat tip. David Logan was listed as the primary inventor and served as GSP President until around 1990 or so. I doubt any outside money was put up by 3M or anybody else since Gerber Scientific was already a successful and wealthy company.
Gerber's parent company (Gerber Scientific) was already the established leader in supplying computer controlled pattern cutting equipment for items like clothing and shoes in 1982. The joke that went around in the 80's was that the Gerber marketing people were looking for new prospects and opened the Manhatten Yellow Pages to "Shoes" ..... but someone had torn out the pages. The pages immediately following that was "Signs". Thus an industry was forever changed.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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Troy, I spoke with Ken a couple of times in the late 80's when we had our friction feed adaptor on the market (he was a customer). Very interesting guy.
Recalling the technology, I would question his production method of running into the night. The SignMaker had no multi-job spooling capability and had a limit of 255 characters in a job. Buffer spoolers didn't reach the market for a number of years. So while he may have left a job cutting and turned out the lights, it would have been limited to one job per machine.
The SignMaker was pretty slow (4" per second) but they were still capable of a huge amount of output. We used to regularly produce an average of 5,000 letters a day with 3 machines when we were wholesaling letters to the trade.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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All this talk about early steam driven computers illuminated a very dim bulb in my head. It hit me that Allied Compugraphics was the company I bought my "Scrappy" friction feed adaptor from back in the '80s. Fred's last post confirmed it.
I bought the beta model at a trade show and they upgraded it to another design shortly thereafter. That thing is still attached to my Signmaker. I've made a few more modifications to it.
I don't know if Fred's company was the one that made the Apple IIe pricing program for Slatz Aluminum extrusions. I think I bought that at the same trade show. I used lots of vinyl on Slatz in those days. I recently recycled loads of Slatz cut offs. Gerber later went into a marketing partnership with them.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Another “innovation” in computerized signmaking was affordable fonts. The original Signmakers had font cards that cost $265 each. I had 23 of them, meaning I spent over $6000 on fonts alone. To do outlines and distortions required another module in the Signmaker and a model upgraded from what I had, which would have cost me about $7000 more. URW’s Signus at $25,000 was infinitely more capable than the tricked out Signmaker but was definitely out of the average budget. Signus had the most fonts available (a couple thousand) at that time.
Gerber came out with a 286 computer system for $16,000 that offered much of what Signus did. Gerber did not sell the software separately–a purchase of the whole system was necessary, even if you already had blown four grand on a 286. Gerber hung onto that concept for years thereafter.
Then... a company named ThermaZone came out with a software package built onto CorelDRAW 2, which offered all kinds of distortions, editing and outlines (everything the $16,000 Gerber did), for about $2600. Their marketing pounded on the price difference. ThermaZone is now known as SignLab.
In addition to opening up the world of relatively inexpensive fonts, at least compared to the Signmaker variety, ThermaZone started the bandwagon rolling on reasonably priced stand alone software, unbundled from hardware purchases. The success of Thermazone and Flexi drove Gerber to begin selling their software separately.
Around that time, URW, possibly concerned that their Signus system would lose its market share, came out with a $10,000 CD that had something like 4000 fonts on it. I drooled but could not afford it. Later, they came out with an $800 CD with around a thousand fonts, which I purchased and still use for they are of very high quality.
I guess it is now about time for a Mac-geek to chime in with the observation that they had all this eons before us PC guys and question what all the hoopla was about. In response to that, all I can say is...
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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In Spring of '82 we were in France,Germany and England, and saw quite a bit of vinyl lettering, didn't know how it was done, and it was, looking back, on the trucks, signs for awhile. I've got lots of photos of that trip(signs, of course).
We were seeing vinyl in '81 in Vancouver, thought it was done by some sort of chemical resist,?? I don't think so! I was under the impression that the first vinyl cutting came out of Scandnavia?? Henry???
Well, off to Arundel for an art/garden exposition.
Cheers, John Lennig / SignRider
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Well David, now that you mention it. In the late 80's I was looking into a vinyl/amberlith cutting system to add to my screen printing business.
I had looked at some demo systems including the Techno Arts heat cutter and the Gerber system.
100% of my agency clientel were Mac based so Gerber wasn't even a consideration. I found SignPost and the lights went onl I dropped 4K on a Mac CI and another 4 on a Graphtec 2100-50. I had never touched a keyboard until the boxes arrived at the shop. I was literally cutting vinyl within 3 hours of plugging it all in. Back than you PC guys would still have been trying to get everything to even talk to each other, (not that that ever happens any more). Bill Gates still wasn't sure what a font was and Adobe Illustrator and PhotoShop weren't even written in a PC version.
Illustrator 88, SignPost and wonderful type 2 Postscript fonts for $65 at top for a complete font family! It was a perfect combination. It worked flawlessly and smoked about every other system out there.
When Gerber was finally looking into the Mac market I was able to get into the first floor and bacome a beta tester for MacImprint 1 in the spring of 1999. Been running my Edge and GSxPlus since than on my 4the Mac now. By the way, the original Mac is still running at a small private school.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bill Gates is lord of the dark side.....creator of Windoz, Macintosh emulator, virus magnet....
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes it's not surprising that you saw this in Europe first. The Germans and later the Swiss were the main driving force.
Even the notion of liquifying vinyl and spraying it to make sheets of cast vinyl was a European innovation. URW, among its many accomplishments before going bankrupt due to font piracy, was the inventor of vector based electronic fonts and the systems used by the foundries to digitize their designs.
Gerber's offerings are a classic example of "crossover technology" coupled with good marketing.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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As the "computerized" question seems to have been answered. I own a 1970 model(hand operated) vinyl cutter sold by the LETRON company for the larger department store chains in order to do thier own signs! Utilizing a metal die cut system of individual letters cut one at a time on a 4" roll. This being the FIRST mechenized vinyl cutter! Soon to be donated to the Sign Museum,as it was bought NEW in the box with dies and printed instructions. (used Twice for demonstration)
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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i used to sell gerber and thought i was right about them coming out in the early 80's.
i remembered the die cut machines but thought i was right about gerber.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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While I was In School and my First Drafting Job we had a machine Called a KROY that cut letters for our Drafting and we applied them the same we do now (mask/rub/remove) I just dont remember if it was a vinyl or a dry transfer anyone seen these machines. I thought they were the Greatest thing since the Rapidograph and Eversharp Pencils no more Hand lettering..
posted
pat i had one of those LETRON machines.....was a hoot...you put in the tape, and take each letter you wana cut 1 at atime and drop it in the slot, crank the handle, and repeat till your done....nobody has said anything about where 3M WAS in the gerber devlopment....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Troy You were right about the vacuum form signs being around in the 70's, I worked for a Plastic company that made the vacuum form magnetics in 1973, in a warehouse, with no air conditioning, in Florida...I'm breaking out in a sweat now thinking about it...those machines put out a lot of heat back then...
Bobbie King
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We had one of those vacuum forming machines in a shop where I worked. We quit using it because the signs it made were just too ugly. And they had those silly little magnetic strips to hold the sign on the door. They always fell off after a while.
Another shop had a poster machine. It was like a flat table, and you laid out various wood blocks that had metal letters. Then you "inked" them, laid your board upside down over the letters, then it pressed down to make a print. This shop didn't like signpainters very much, so they used that machine a lot. They were ugly signs too.
Although none of these were computerized, they were right there in the last days before computers. They were the beginning of the trend towards finding other ways of making signs, besides having a signpainter do it.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I can't believe nobody here remembered the precursor to the Gerber...
The Arty Compugraphic. (Not to be confused with Allied Computer Graphics) I bought one at an auction a long time ago.
It looked like the Gerber, although a different color. It worked like the Gerber. It held more font cards than the Gerber. 20 if I remember correctly, with no font extender box required.
I heard it came out before Gerber and that Gerber bought it and made it into the Signmaker. Not sure if that's a fact or a rumor.
-------------------- EmpY Mayo Pardo #138 South Elgin, IL. Posts: 436 | From: South Elgin, IL | Registered: Nov 1998
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This is taken from Gerbers History page. History Gerber Scientific Products was founded in January 1980 as a subsidiary of Gerber Scientific, Inc. The company was chartered to expand the corporations’ product offerings by entering new markets. Much of the company’s early work involved research and development of OEM products to be marketed by other companies. In early 1981, the concept of an automated lettering system was born at Gerber. After nearly two years of extensive market research and engineering R&D, concept became reality and the Signmaker III was publicly introduced to the market November 1982. Since then, Gerber has carefully studied our customers’ needs and combined our creative minds, innovative engineering, and outstanding workmanship to develop and produce a complete range of products for the sign, graphics, and screenprint industries. In retrospect, the Signmaker III started a revolution in the way the world creates signs and other related visual media today.
I got my first signmaker in 1984. My son after going two years at Jr. College worked in a co op program with Dow where he used autocad drafting equipment. Some folks had already made those machines to cut vinyl. But they were unreliable and expensive. I had a guy from Gilmer Texas working for me, Lorne Grey. He told me about a pattern making machine that his old boss had. (it was a gerber 3 a, I was told. I was very intrested and called my supplier, who told me they would give me a demo of a new one that had just come out. It was the 4b and I bought their Demo at a reduced price. That started a long line of learning for me. My computer education was limited to the commodore 64, which we were using to do our office accounting on. I , in turn, purchased the Gerber Sprint design station with a b/w scanner, in 1989. I just disposed of that design station computer last month. But I still use the sprint to cut my Edge Prints. Funny thing though. I had converted all my 5.25 disks to 3.25 floppies and then later to cd's. I ran across some old .plt files the other day, and opened them in graphic advantage. No Problem. I really didn't take full advantage of the sprint and design station as I found signlab and the cadlink fastboard, plugged right into the sprint and worked so much better than the design station, that I didn't look back till the edge came along. One time I strayed and sent 500 bucks to vinyl master pro, although I have used some of the clipart in vmp. I never got it to output a scrap of vinyl.However, I haven't tried to connect it to my summa. No need. I feel fortunate to have started in this business before computers, but I wouldn't go back. Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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My foggy recollection was that the Arty was built under license from Gerber and that Gerber later pulled the license over some dispute. The Arty looked like a London double decker bus version of the Gerber since the expansion box was integral to the unit, allowing for two sets of font cards.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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gerber built the arty for compugraphics it would hold 20 fonts plus the one built in that was why it was called the arty 21.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Gerber built the Arty for Compugraphics and Compugraphics, in a reciprocal agreement was supplying font data and other firmware/software.
When they came to a parting of the ways, in either 1984 or 1985, Compugraphics had a phenomenal sale on equipment and supplies. I called in and bought a bunch of materials at next to nothing prices. In talking to the person taking my order she commented that the breakup was brought on by Gerber withholding hardware improvements for 90 days after they were introduced on the SignMaker series.
Don't know if it was true or not.
It wasn't long after that that Compugraphics Corp. was acquired by Agfa. Compugraphics was a major innovator in the old photo typesetting equipment field and led the competition to the point that phototypesetters were referring to any equipment as Compugraphic machines just as copiers all came to be know as Xerox machines. Their main competition was Varityper.
The primary surviving asset of Compugraphics Corp. is the huge, high quality type library they had developed.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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If you raelly want to go to the egg on this one, do you all remember when the first time you saw a picture or happy birthday banner made from a computer print out. How about the ones in offices as far back as the 1960s that were the type in patterns to form larger images?
The original computer printed banners!
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I own a 1970 model(hand operated) vinyl cutter sold by the LETRON company for the larger department store chains in order to do thier own signs!
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