posted
OK, my topic header is a little exaggerated, but the truth is I am trying to stretch out a little into new sign making skills, & sometimes I just have to put the pressure on myself by collecting a deposit for something, then figuring out how to do it.
I have done a fair bit of research on this already, but I still have so many questions I am going to show you all where I'm at with this so far. You can tell me to settle for my place in the quicky-sticky world or pass on some tips, but either way, I gotta do this job now.
The client is an existing client who bought a few MDO signs when they opened a shop in a warehouse nearby. They have been extremely successful, & are opening another store in a shopping center in a very commercial part of the island. They want 2 sandblasted signs similar in shape to the other signs in that building. I told them about HDU as a termite-proof alternative that is also more tolerant of wet weather. They said to go ahead with the Sign Foam.
This is what the signs will look like:
The dimensions of the main panel are 9' x 18" with an additional 12" x 24" semi-circle centered at the top. The length was agreed upon before we switched from talking about Redwood, to going with HDU. I have a 4 x 8 x 1-1/2" pc. of 15# Sign Foam I had brought in with a pallet of goods I shipped in earlier this year. I already ripped 2 18" x 96" panels out of it leaving a 12" x 96" for my two 12" x 24" semi-circles & my 18" x 12" pcs. to bond to each of the 8' panels with PB240. I have also thought of talking them into 8' signs instead, but so far since I have enough material & it seems to be a standard practice, I want to go ahead with the plan to bond another foot on the end.
My supplier said I shouldn't need a backing board... but Pierre said I need one (back-support & Alimony post)so I have ripped down a ding-ed up old 1/2" sheet of MDO that was shipped with my HDU as a protective packing material. I will need a splice to get the 9' so I figured I'd use 8' plus 1' just like the HDU, except I would have the splices in each material on opposite ends.
Will this serve the purpose, or is it worth me getting a 4x10 sheet of MDO to avoid having a fault line in my back support? Also what is reccommended for attaching the MDO? I believe Pierre said the PB240 is good for that too?
I plan to prime with Precision Boards FSC-88 or Sign Arts SP3300, or possibly some other primer if something suitable is locally available. What characteristics would I look for in selecting an alternative ? are these high-build primers? I know the FSC-88 comes in oil & water base, The SP3300 is water-base. If I plan to paint with 1-Shot, would that make oil base a better choice?
I will apply Anchor sandblast mask after priming, sanding & painting 2 coats of black 1-shot, another shop will let me use their Grain-Fraim & I will have the blasting done by a guy who blasts signs for many of the shops around here. He has done some HDU before. The Grain Fraim is only 48", any tricks I should be aware of to get the best results moving the frame as we go? I'm assuming overlapping placement of the frame, & keeping the blast well away from the edge of the frame.
Also while I'm pickin' brains here, since I've created grain in my proposal drawing shown here, would creating these signs on a router be an option? I probably wouldn't change the plan that drastically at this point, but I do have a guy about a block away who buys his wholesale edge prints from me, & does wholesale CNC work for a lot of shops. If I was going to have him rout these things I would probably have needed to give him the whole sheet, but when a client wants to get a sandblasted look, are some of you router guys going in after removing material to a specific depth, & then running some grain lines down to another depth? If this is an option what pros and cons would help choose one method over the other if you owned the equipment to do both in-house (or if both had to be subbed out, like in my case)
Another question I have is about the best tool for cutting the semicircles. I'll probably use my hand held jig-saw, but was thinking if I cut the backing board first, I could rough cut the foam a little oversize, clamp the board on as a template then use my belt sander to get a smoother finish & probably a more consistent 90° return.
One last question: I charged $1000 each (without installation) I know the market varies, but what do some of you think about that based on material costs which are probably fairly consistent?
It sounds like you have a good grasp of the process!
points of concern:
1.using MDO backer...always a safe alternate plus it allows for good anchoring. 2 pieces are fine since the load bearing points are distributed. the seam won't even show from ground level. If concerned, grab some 080 aluminum and brace behind or in front of the material.
2. Grain Frame- works great...just keep moving it over and if he has done it before he should be fine...just make sure you shoot at 90 degrees to surface so there are no undercuts!
3. Paint. For a smooth surface we will prime, but otherwise, we don't at all...it will sometime lift with blasting mask and offers no real value to work except smoother pieces.
4. Cost...seems fine to me if you paid 330.00 for a sheet of foam.
5. cutting semi circle- I would rough out the circle with your jig and sand it in. you will find it can come off very fast and you have to be careful! then attach it to you backboard.
From one newbie to another...LOL
Good Luck
OH...and if you want to play with those chisels you used on fkab, I would suggest a little fun detail on the logo. It would be pretty easy to just stair step the different color values.
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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Cut down on the extra work and scale them down to 8'wide. Blast with a grain frame. You wont get the natural woodgrain look even with a CNC routed groove in the background.
I would have prefered to see you use Dibond for a structural backing instead of MDO. Afterall you did tell the customer the benefit of HDU was resistance to termites and MDO is wood?
One last thing, scale down the name just a little bit either by reducing the height or closing up the space between the letters by kerning so the first and last letter arent so close to the edge border.
So, for your first attempt at a sandblasted HDU sign you did well in your research.
[ August 21, 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
If ya don't challenge yourself you'll never learn and you'll get bored! The best way to do that is let the customer pay for your experiment, provided you do some preliminary research first (which it seems you have).
If you sold the customer on HDU based on the premise that MDO isn't as resistant to weather and bugs, the LAST thing you want to do now is use MDO for your backer support, not only cause it's an inferior material but now your customer may see it and think the only reason you upsold him on HDU in the first place was to line your own pockets, thus ripping him off. So, MDO isn't OK for a sign face cause of moisture and bugs, but now it's OK because it's not the exposed face? See what I'm gettin at?
If you're going to sell him on that basis, use aluminum, dibond, stainless, etc. etc. for your structural support.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Doug, If you're going to pre-finish before blasting, make SURE you use the lowest tack rubber available. It'll stick like crazy to a smooth painted surface and give you fits removing it after the blast. Also, that prep is critical even for low tack rubber...make sure if and HDU or primer dust is thoroughly cleaned off before topcoating.
Personally, I wouldn't risk prefinishing in a case like this. I'd go with high tack rubber on the bare foam, then prime and paint everything after blasting, finishing the flat tops of the letters last.
Oh, the spacing like Bob said too...you see why right? Currently the letters for LATITUDES relate more to the top and side borders than they do to themselves. A little tighter kerning or dropping the height slightly will improve greatly. Sorry for the unsolicited critique.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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This is great, I step out to get a few hours of painting done, & now I have a slew of good advice.
I will go with the mask applied to bare foam since I got 2 suggestions on that score. Robert, you weren't saying don't prime at all were you? What is the consensus on these primers sold by the HDU manufacturers? At $60/gallon plus freight over the ocean, is this neccessary?
I will also tighten up the kerning a little & cut back on the height a little. Maybe this will help the idea of selling them down to an 8' sign.
No one is saying skip the backer, but I see 2 votes for switching to a non-wood backer. Dibond is not locally available & will take 2 weeks on a barge at a min. $125 freight cost. I may also be able to get it shipped faster (particularily if I get it cut in half first)for the same money, but when I need to spend that much on freight, I usually can throw in some rolls of vinyl, magnetic, steel frames etc. for the same $125 My thinking on using the MDO, was that in 5 - 10 years they might need another $50 worth of backing cut plus installation instead of $2000 worth of signs being compromised. I will look into the cost of getting some Di-Bond. Will sheets of .032 aluminum have any value as a backing?
I may get blasted for saying...but we don't prime at all on foam except when a smooth surface is required...and we have done at least 300 blasted foam signs over the last 7 years. All going strong. Our Reason?...because primer is used to seal and stabilize and block out or get paint to stick. The foam is overall stable...it may take a bit more paint but we don't think so...and it tends to take away from the "sandblasted " feel...except to say again...we do use it when a smooth surface is require...say like you might on your lettering...but that's it. We personally don't use backers for signs mounted onto a flat building surface and when doing ground work, we don't use mdo or dibond. We go with 080 aluminum always. To us it's an upsell.
And we always use a clearcoat for color retention and cleaning like pelucid or one shot clear.
unless we paint with all one shot... does that make sense?
oh...and some have recently had issues of "warping" which we have never encountered therefore I have been reluctant to comment on the backer. The main reason we use backers on the ground is because they are usually large and will stop the natives from punching thru 15lb density foam! We use the pelucid for all ground work cuz Mr. Pierre is correct in saying that it is some tough schtuff!...You can't dig your finger nails into the foam after laying the pelucid on!
Hope that helps!
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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Thank you again Robert. Clearcoat unless all painted with 1-shot... hmmm, I will paint it all with 1-shot, but that pelucid sounds like a safe bet as well. Shouldn't be too many natives up above my clients door, but ya never know what with their spears etc.
I just might skip priming too, maybe paint the whole thing with the background color, the I only have to pay attention to where I'm painting when I go back into the raised areas, & then they will be a little smoother due to 2 coats.
posted
If this is going on a framed wall, we just screw the sign up with deck screws and cover the heads with paint.
Also when I first bought my shop 3 years ago,my previous production guy would prepaint any redwoods that we did and then coat the painted area with rubber cement before he put on our sandblast mask. We would then sandblast andwhen he peeled the mask off, the paint stayed there. He then remove the rubber cement-somehow. I think that he just rolled it off with his fingers but I'm not sure. But it did save a tremendous amount of time in painting and touching up. I have been wanting to try it with HDU but haven't yet. We don't do a lot of HDU yet.
I also agree with scaling down the copy. You want some negative space around it. I would also thin down the black line around it.
[ August 21, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Hey Doug! You're on the right track now bud! Ive done a fair amount of these now, and here's my take on it. Use MDO for the backer. I always do, and have yet to have a problem. Ive been doing signs on MDO for 18 years now, and no termites have bothered them. Seal the edges and you wont have a problem. Also, consider doing all the paint work with acrylic paints. Most sandblasted signs are done this way anyhow. Use a good brand, such as Porter or something comparable. As far as the primer, Ive done it both ways. Primed and un-primed. I use to prime, apply the stencil and blast. Now I just apply the stencil and blast, then spray the background (with acrylic) and do the raised portions with a brush, or with gold leaf. Everyone has their opinion on this, you just gotta get in the middle somewhere I guess. Gary Anderson does quite a bit of these, you might give him a call and get some of his sage advice. Hes the guru on this type of work. Good luck to you Doug. You'll do a good job.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Doug, If you want to stay with the 9' size, I would suggest you use metal dowel rods to attach the extra foot. About three spread over the 18" is plenty, drill 3/8" matching holes and use 1/4" threaded rod, a little PB240 for the fill and bonding. If its mounted to a wall I see no need for the backer but if you prefer it how about using a strip of 1-1/2"x1-1/2" aluminum angle at the bottom and across the top (each side of the half circle). These can be mounted to the wall first and the sign mounted with screws into to edge of the HDU every 12". If you don't want them to show, they can be recessed into the edge of the sign and attached with counter-sunk screws. Like most sign projects there are many ways to accomplish the project, this is just the way I would handle it.
-------------------- Larry
Elliott Design McLemoresville, Tn.
If you can't find the time to do it right, where you gonna find the time to do it over? Posts: 486 | From: McLemoresville, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If this is going up against a wall, I'd forget the backer. The BUILDING is the backer. I'd also forget the dowels. The glue you're using is as strong as the HDU. Dowels take alot of time and are tough to make the surfaces of the 2 pieces match exactly. I quit using dowels many years ago. They add no structural strength to the joint except for butt glued wood joints.
If I need extra stiffness, I'll route in a couple dados and epoxy in a couple steel flats flush to the back. If I need studs I'll drill holes through the steel flats, mark the holes in the dados and drill a shallow pocket, as deep as the thickness of the hex bolt head, then epoxy the whole works in. Now you have stainless steel threaded studs coming out the back.
I would consider seeing if the client would go for an 8 footer. Seams running the same direction as the grain fraim are almost impossible to see, but perpendicular seams, or seams blasted with no grain fraim are very tough to conceal completely.
I also go with anchor sandblast rubber on raw HDU. The only thing I prime is the edges when I want a smooth look. I also use PB Resin or Dura Finish epoxy on the letters, but it could be very expensive getting it to Hawaii, so I'd just go with One Shot. A sign done for the Tomahawk Fire Dept. at the Int. meet was done this way and you can't tell the difference from a few feet away. But if you want a very smooth look, if you have any epoxy that isn't too runny when mixed, you could pour that on and then paint that with One Shot. I'd have to run you through that one though.
One thing I've done to help the look of the grain fraim produced grain is to angle it. Simply put a 3/4 inch to 1 inch block under one end to have the fraims' wires run across the sign at an angle. Blast the length of the grain fraim, then remove the block for the rest of the way across. Do this for only about half the height of the grain fraim. Then blast a 6 to 8 inch section straight across, then angle the next section the other way. This will produce a wavy grain effect in just a few parts of the sign, producing a more believable grain.
I would have charged $1000.50
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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finished the job... all went well thanks to help here & some phone calls from Dave Sherby (thanks Dave)
here is the finished look of one of the 2 signs & the original presentation drawing below so I can see them together. (I did adjust kerning as suggested here as well)
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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