posted
yeah but is it going to be a disappointment like the Encad VinylJet?
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
ahh... Good point. I'll be going to the Long Beach Sign Business show here in a couple weeks, I'll try to get a good feel for everything out there!
I love the price of the PC-600 but am a little gunshy from all the stories I've heard, I'm trying to setup some time with a local owner so I can see it in action first hand...
Dave
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I'll let you know after Saturday at the Orlando show. I was going specifically to check this new one out. So far based on the specs it sounds good on paper but as in the past I've seldom seen a product perform as adverstised in real life.
Big difference between a finely tuned demo with perfect sample pictures and real life shop environment.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
To Dave Cox There is a 76 or 72 CM Soljet model coming out which I would imagine would compete head on with the 600 (barring the fact that it wont print wax and metallics like the thermal printers)
The PC range is fraught with head and "banding" problems (I still have a pnc 5000 and a pc60) in that it really is suitable for tiny decals and requires a "clean" room to function 100% Running costs are VERY high and it is really not suitable as a large format printer as it is pretty slow and cost per sq foot makes it non competitive in that market. I must say , that despite all those problems , My thermal printers still made us a lot of money and "launched" my foray into large format inkjet.
Dave , as to the "cheap" and Walmart comment , the Soljet prints EXCEPTIONALLY , and with solvent inks , the ability to print on coated and uncoated media and the die cut facility , is a very veratile machine. There are no known major issues with the printer and its very reliable. I have NEVER had to even touch my machine maintenance wise - it just does what it's supposed to do flawlessly. The only "issue" I have had is drying time On cold cold days , using the best quality print (1440 x 1440) on some locally coated media requires about a 12-24 hr drying time - the only other issue I have come across is that local coated media (NOT soljet certified) is not that scratch/wet finger rub resistant - but that is an issue with the coating , not the Printer. Granted , Roland does sell some products aimed at the hobbyist market , like their Stika and PC12 thermal printer and one or 2 of their smaller engraving machines and sometimes their marketing strategy is sort of like "make money at home in your spare time" , but they do also sell items aimed at the higher volume/pro market.
I can tell you that the Soljets DO perform as advertised - even the "poor" 450x360 banner resolution is very very good and the speed of print and print costs are pretty much up there in terms of published specs. Colours are great too. The RIP is very fast and VERY good (Its a WASATCH rip) Registration on the cuts is VERY VERY good , and even when removing the media , overlaminating and then using it's optical registration system to reload and cut , the registration is truly amazing. As a vinyl cutter its up there with the best too. I have seen the output of the new inkset on uncoated media and it looks almost like a Dye Sub print - print speeds are fast and the price is right and you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work the RIP or the machine (I trained one of my employees who has never done digital printing before to work it in a matter of 2 days) - what more does one want?
But why take my word for it , if you are spending $30k or so , take your OWN file to a dealer and ask them to print it out for you while you wait.
Im not associated with Roland in ANY way , my comments are as a user. In fact after problems with My PC series - I was a little hesitant to buy a Soljet - but after seeing what it did with the type of stuff I do , had no qualms about buying one.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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Dave C., In what way is the VinylJet a disappointment? All the reviews I've heard are that it is exactly what is advertised: a very inexpensive way to get into printing durable outdoor graphics on uncoated medias. At only $12K, you can't ask for a lot when your next options are all over $20-$30K.
Dave L., I can't imaging how you arrived at that opinion. I agree fully with Rodney, the Rolands are excellent printers and function exactly as advertised. If you're looking for a printer that does something else, perhaps they are not suited. I certainly wouldn't put a SolJet head to head with a VUTEk or even a DGI, but that's apples and oranges.
Rodney, When did Roland change from ColorChoice/Flexi to Wasatch, or have you just chosen one over the other?
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Kenneth Sandlin: Dave C., In what way is the VinylJet a disappointment? All the reviews I've heard are that it is exactly what is advertised: a very inexpensive way to get into printing durable outdoor graphics on uncoated medias. At only $12K, you can't ask for a lot when your next options are all over $20-$30K.
While I haven't seen firsthand I did read what Bruce Bowers said in another post
"This a machine that we have been watching and anticipating. Seemed too good to be true. Well, it is. While the prints are imperious to water, it seems that Windex will remove the prints. I can get the same outdoor results and warranty if I over laminate the GO inks on the 736 I already have. Why spend 14K to have to overlaminate anyways? This machine is not ready for prime time yet."
I have to agree, I don't want to have to laminate a print that is claimed to last up to 3 years outdoors "without lamination". Plus the windex removal comment is pretty shocking, I could understand a hotter solvent removing the print but not windex which is basically soap and water...
I think I'm leaning toward the Summa DC3, but like i said i'll be checking them out for myself at the show in Long Beach.
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Well I just returned from the Orlando mini show and I went specifically to see the new Roland EX machine.
I was impressed with the machine overall and I think they may have gotten this one right however this is the first I've heard of the windex claim before.
I did ask for and get a sample print to bring home so I'll give it the windex test to see for myself.
The colors were excellent. The speed was impressive to say the least. And the cost of materials to print was really impressive. The sales reps were insistant that the prints would hold up well without lam up to three years and longer if you wanted to laminate.
But I even told the sales rep to his face I was skeptical of anything he said if his lips moved.
I'm going to continue to test and research this machine before I part with $30k but I do hope it lives up to their claims. I would like to have this machine in my shop.
All along I have been hearing great things about the Mimaki JV3 but everyone of the machines there I saw, the colors sucked. Dull, muted, muddy looking output. So that machine is out of the running.
It looks like they're getting closer and I'm sure in two or three more years you will see some awesome digital printers out there.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Roland changed to the Wasatch RIP (customised for Roland) about 3 months ago or more , I'm not 100% sure of the timeline , but My machine came with a Wasatch rip called Colorip. It seems pretty good , fast , lots of options and it prints colours almost exactly like I see on my monitor (which is sort of color matched) If you want to print any graphics that are subject to any handling or any physical abraision or be resistant to chemical actions they have to be overlaminated whatever you use if you want to guarantee em for any length of time. I know people that actually overlaminte UNPRINTED vehicle graphics for the ultimate longevity. Even the new roland inkset is not immune to attack. Window glass cleaners often have ammonia in em which cant be good for any printing. Over here , the guys give the graphics (on coated media) a spray of silicon based stuff and a lot use "spray & cook" (pam in america?) , this gives a glossier and far more scratch/water resistant print. I have tried Windowlene (most likely the same is Windex) on the new inkset printed on polymeric clear vinyl (starex premium) and there is no effect , I tried dishwashing liquid and rubbed a lot , no effect , I tried thinners and the graphic was attacked , same with benziene and meths. Lamination or a print finishing station is a logical "extra" to a large format printer and can generate big profits in itself as well as luring potential digital printing customers in and allowing exisiting customers a "one stop" solution. The really big advantage of the Soljet is its ability to cut and the fact one can use media up to 1mm thick in it (We have printed and scored thin styrene which as been coated for the old Soljet inkset) It's a pretty fast machine too - and even at the lowest resolution/fastest speed output on banner material is impressive. On Vinyls at the lowest resolution / fastest speed , there is some slight banding , however this is not an issue if viewed from the correct distance and almost dissapears if you calibrate the printer correctly - Considering ink coverage at higher quality mode is minimally more than at low , if time is not an issue , its really worthwhile printing in that mode.
The other issue is that prints take a while to dry if using the old inks and have printed at high resolution or have overprinted.
I have heard there is a smaller "soljet" coming out , 72 or 76 cm wide - Im not sure if it's a print and cut machine , and whether its a 6 or 4 cart inkset ? and it will be a VERY affordable machine - but this is merely hearsay.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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After two full days of drying/cure time, I just gave the Roland EX print the windex test and the print didn't smear, smudge or bleed in any way whatsoever.
I even poured Naptha (benzine) a mild solvent on the print and it too had no effect.
So that aspect of the machine looks very good!
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
But how does it smell? I know they claim it has no odor, but I've never known a solvent that didn't smell. Will there need to be special ventalation in the room where this machine is placed. And what if you have to cut some vinyl when this printer is in the middle of a huge print job?
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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TJ, at the show it didn't have any smell at all to me. You wouldn't want to buy this machine to be your plotter. Like Bob Burns said, you'd still use your existing plotter.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Yes, I've gotten some good input from some friends of mine who are major Roland Resellers and this is going to be a very good machine. It might completly supplant the JV3, though I don't know if it is as compatible with as wide a variety of medias.
No smell, 300 sq. ft./hr. @450 dpi on inexpensive uncoated medias. Roland has a very wide variety of medias available and these inks will also print to the Sol media and regular coated medias.
As Rodney said, you should laminate most prints even solvent and thermal in many cases, at least with a liquid lam.
Yes, there is a 36" model coming out in a few months-probably by SGIA, so the VinylJet will likely be toast because the Roland unit will be priced competitively with higher speed and much better quality.
Inks and media are much lower priced than the Sol version. I think this may be the hottest new printer of the 2nd half of 2003.
posted
Encad is likely wasting their money at this point.
Roland has too good a product for Encad to compete with the VinylJet and releasing a bigger one will probably be a waste of money for them.
More news, it looks like the EX inks are similar if not identical to the new inks Mutoh just released for their Falcon Outdoor.
hmmmmm, both using the same Epson heads, both releasing at the same time an upgraded inkset for their very similar eco-solvent printers with almost identical capabilities.... I wonder whether these inks are actually an Epson development???
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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Mutoh announced this some time before Roland , round July , there is a press release on their site. There are tons of vendors touting "solvent" inks for Eco-solvent printers. The problem is that EU regulations and other legislation on the table don't allow true solvent inks in certain places so thats why the inks have to be "cleaner" (and thus less useable to us , requiring expensive and limited availabilty media)
I think Roland realised that consumers were kicking against this fact , obviously they wanted both the machine and consumable sales , but others were producing materials suitable for Eco inks and their market share must have been dropping apart from stocking huge inventories of specialised stuff As an aside , Rolanddga dont seem in step with Rolanddg , the EX range was pretty hush hush in the USA but known elsewhere - even the fact that X-film in Germany was developing coatings (we even have a coating plant in backwater South Africa) was scoffed at. I am personally not keen to deal with equipment that holds me to ransom regarding consumables and welcome the freedom of choice now offered me. Im sure that there will be cheaper inks too from 3rd party vendors (tho we will be told these void any warrantee) although I would prefer to use Roland certified inks as heads are rather expensive items to replace for a few pennies savings. At the end of it all , the problem boils down to the fact that there are a LOT of operators out there trying to pay back investments on older more expensive machinery by outputting vast volumes of digital graphics at a cost of material + mickey mouse% . There are some companies here that have to work 18 hrs a day to cover costs - selling printed graphics at about $1.70 per sq ft. This sort of messes up the market if one has to compete against this. That pricing model is a recipe for disaster and those companys will soon dissapear. Thing is , you quote one price and the customer tells you he can get it at 1/2 of that but fails to get the fact that he aint comparing apples with pears. You can educate em as much as you want , it's sometims a waste of time as the cheaper price will generally win out. We have actually picked up a lot of customers from these press and print houses after they see the speckly and incorrect colours or the muddy blacks etc. The real problem is that the big volume fast work STILL goes there as the savings are huge , the graphics dont require serious color proofing and are bill board type stuff - if you have to use specialised consumables there is not point in going after that work , you dont get it thus one has to be a "specialist" of sorts.
On another theme , I don't see how thermal printers , considering the high quality inkjets are getting cheaper (and are coming in smaller models) can survive considering their operating costs. I have seen a nice report on a Roland Flatbed printer , built by Rolands european Head honcho - it does flexible (vinyls) and flat stuff (its a prototype at the moment ) and will print on ANYTHING up to 7.5" high as well as (unbelievably so) print on curved surfaces. It has a laser guide and some seriously high tech engineering Thats the next step , flat and flexible , perhaps integrated with various cutting devices (like a 100 watt Coherent DEOS laser) , MUCH wider print heads - and a built in laminator and color proofing hardware - ah we can all wish:)
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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Rodney: If ROLAND ever comes out with a printer like THAT, it'll turn the SIGN BUSINESS upside-down. For the most part, it'll put everybody that can't afford one, out of business! IMAGINE pressing the 'PRINT' button, and have a full-color 4X8 come out the other end in an hour or two!.......GAWD ALMIGHTY!!!!!
posted
There will always be a need for FLEXible printing---roll stock(vinyl), banner, etc.
Many of today's flatbeds do not handle these sorts of materials that well-----3M's does, but it's a little expensive. That will change however as flatbed technology comes 'downmarket'.
posted
The machine sounds good, but I find it hard to put trust behind Roland after the PC60 fiasco especially when they followed it with the PC600. I only hope they know what they are doing when it comes to inks.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've been using a PC60 quite successfully since it's introduction, as well as the FJ V8 INKJET. Both have worked flawlessly for me. I've also used the Roland PNC1100 plotter for 12 years running.......all three are great assets to my business, so, I look forward to just about anything ROLAND comes up with, with great anticipation.
[ August 26, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
posted
I think some people may have had a bad impression about the ColorCamms because they wanted to use them for purposes for which they were not ideal.
That is one of the most mixed reviewed printers I've seen with about half thumbs up and half thumbs down.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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The Soljet as is CAN do rigid substrates up to 1mm thick and there is a Co that does modifications to it so it can print on stuff up to 1" thick The major problem with the PC range was that it was marketed to do large graphics , which it can do it the wind is from behind and you're going downhill and you have a clean room environment etc etc. At the time they were introduced , there was nothing really competitve in the print/cut market barring the Gerbers which were more expensive I too still have my PNC 5000 and my PC 60 , which despite my having a Soljet , work all day long (inbetween head replacements) I do 1000's of very small highly detailed graphic that are die cut and then domed in some way and the PCs are perfect when I need a foiled look (printing metallics) or have smaller runs.
Inkjets will at some stage take over from screenprinting in some respects and already are being used for stuff like printing resists on PC board or depositing solders and so forth. With an inkjet one can print and place a dot down to 1 or 2 microns , whereas with screen printing a 50 micron dot is difficult. There is another aspect to inkjets that screening cant match , it's a non contact type process. Remember large format inijet printing is hardly 10 years old and it's only now that truly cost effective and reliable and high quality is available. ALL of us , regardless of what machines we buy are sort of beta testers!! Imagine in another 10 yeears time? Inkjet tech is very similar at the moment to laser engraving machines in respect of the process maturing and what effect it's having on traditional processes. Our lasers do amazing stuff , and even tho I embraced CnC enagraving right at the begining , I realised after seeing what a laser could do , that it was not only a replacement for the older stuff , but complimented it too.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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I've had a similar experience as Rodney - I used a pc-60, and nearly went broke keeping print heads replaced. So, I was very hesitant about any Roland Product. When I saw the demo of the 54" Soljet, I was impressed, but still skeptical. After reassurance from four other owners of the Soljet,I went ahead -- and have never looked back. We're in our 7th month of using the Soljet, and so far - it's been great - no regrets.
John
-------------------- John Stagner Action Graphics Salem, MO agraphics02@earthlink.net Posts: 98 | From: Salem, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I'm already hearing that a number of the older SolJet 500 models are hitting the secondary market from folks planning to upgrade to the new EX. Priced anywhere from $11.5K to $15K.
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