posted
Jay your last post is really good. Thank you for that kind of info. Now i have some facts too..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Just trying to help a fellow Letterhead. If it takes systematically debunking something point-by-point then call me a geek. Soemtimes I probably am. I just hope I don't turn into a crabby old man that yells at kids to 'get outta' my yard'!!
And yes, I'd like to meet you as I have heard some pretty great things from those who know you. Sorry to have rubbed you without getting to know you first!! It seems you weren't alone. My apologies for that. Let's go to the same meet or seminar sometime. I know you have more experience than me - so please accept my apologies if I try to 'bleed some knowledge' off you when we do meet.
Again, I just want Steve to do what is recommended and not suffer from these same mistakes we used to make. The advice learned from others is how we built our business. Not by repeating mistakes. (OK - we had some of those also) I hope in some small way to repay others for that knowledge given to me.
Talk soon, Joe?
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A couple of things not mentioned. Another difference between bulletin colors and lettering colors: speed of drying. Bulletins are traditionally made slower, to be blendable longer. I have seen second coats of bulletin wrinkle where lettering enamel didn't.
Jo's comments about push-drying the first coat are good. An extra thin first coat dries quickly. I have double-coated zillions of red letters in my life by lettering them kinda thin so they dry fast and then go back over them close to the edges. The whole process is fast. You can even do wet on wet if you hit it just right. Otherwise the first coat has to be dry all the way. If not, you hit the 'wrinkle window' and you may develop paint hatred.
The hardener in the first coat is a good idea.
Also, if the paint is not thinned at all, and then dries too fast, you'll get wrinkles. And so will the paint. Try laying One Shot on right out of the can and then drying the paint in 95 degree sun. You may be in Wrinkle City within two hours. Maybe not every time, but often enough. The fast surface-drying is what does it.
Furthermore, adding thinner to oil paint is not wrong. It comes with thinner in it. How could thinner be wrong? Obviously, the amount of thinner is a debatable issue. Durability will diminish or increase in direct relation to the binder/pigment/vehicle ratio. But a balance is needed. Though a manufacturer may recommend 'package consistency,' rarely is it practical in sign paint, in my opinion. Many may swear by so-called flow enhancers. But does not paint thinner enhance flow? If so, it is by definition a flow enhancer. It just doesn't add anything to fortify the paint in any way. And don't flow enhancers contain paint solvents? Are not paint solvents by definition 'thinners?' Or am I just confused?
In respect to the oil versus latex question on redwood signs, I have found latex to have the edge for two reasons, already mentioned: (1)Latex flexes greatly, expanding and contracting with the wood. This helps prevent cracks at the grain lines. (2)Latex is permeable somewhat to moisture. It alows moisture to leave the wood without forcing a blister. I'm guessing that latex was originally formulated for wood siding. It's ideal for durable finishes on redwood signs. But I use oil finishes as well, especially under gold leaf. I like First Step as a sealer. It's tuff stuff.
A good way to avoid problems associated with finishing redwood is to use HDU. It paints with anything.
Well, after reading this long thread and making my contribution, I'm exhausted. I'm gonna go have a scotch and water. I'm not even going to check my spelling.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Cool Jay, I don't know about having more experience than you, but thanks for the prop. I've seen you at a meet before and felt unworthy to interrupt you with my no-count introduction. You're one of the big fish in these waters, so maybe I hold you to a higher standard for being ultra diplomatic. (Success is a b*tch ain't it?!) I appreciate your participation here Jay, and look forward to meeting you soon.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
WHOA!!! Ain't no big fish here guys - none of us - especially me. Nope - you can't include me in with that group. I haven't served a long enough sentence!! That kind of respect makes me seriously uncomfortable - and feeling quite unworthy. IOAFS, right??
Ray and Joe, if I have such deep respect for both of your work(s) then how can it be reciprocal (you respecting me that is)? Cause there's no big fish anywhere in my book. Just some that haven't got caught yet - or won't again!! I just wanted to keep Steve from 'gettin' hooked again'.
We're all the same in my book. I just like helping out when I can - even if I come off sounding like a butthead at times. I really am not (a butthead) and apologize to everyone if I do appear so.
And Joe, I'll kick your butt if you don't say hey next time. I just don't know your face or I'd stop you in a minute. I have copies of every page of your 'design text' from your website - and may even have pirated a phrase or two for our website. I've always wanted to meet you - but unfortunately my ugle face is easy to pick out in a crowd!! Don't be a stranger next time cause there's nobody stranger than me.
[ August 11, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't have any quick cures for your situation but is it possible the guy will accept a temporary sign (maybe coroplast or something) to use until the real sign is finished? If so that would buy you some extra time to finish it in a time frame more suited to these processes. I don't know how much time (in days) you allotted for this job, but I guess that's a lesson to be learned also.
But I have to ask the following & offer some opinions if that's alright.
Where did you get the cedar? From a lumber yard? Was it stored outdoors or inside? If outside was it covered? Or was it kiln-dried lumber which was left out in some open-sided location with only a tiny roof set way too high to protect anything from being resoaked by the weather? When you obtained it where did you keep it? Do you store your wood on the ground? The reason I ask is this sounds like a moisture content related problem. And as Jay referred to the rw assoc. the moisture they describe is inside of the wood & does not refer to wet paint. Since your primer was water based it was compatible with the moisture inside but it only really dried on the outer surface. Underneath it is still wet. If the moisture content (%) inside the wood is greater than the norm, then drying time will greatly be extended. If the h2o-based primer has the ability to breathe then it should dry, one would think. But when? Who knows.
There must be situations where its ok to use oil-based paints on wood; especially around water. Latex paints may breathe but they also absorb water. Even Porters'. Seen it happen. Have you ever noticed rain drops will cause lighter colored spots to appear where they hit the surface? Water is being absorbed into the coating & when it dries out again, the spots disappear. So what happens in areas which receive a lot of moisture, like coastal regions perhaps? Can they really put latex paints on boats? If oil-based are ok for boats then why not signs? (I don't much care for glossy wood signs either but what the hay - I aint gonna argue)
One last point. Lettering enamels do Not dry to be as brittle as other enamels do. Ever notice that lettering enamels remain flexible? Even the skin inside the can doesn't get rock hard & brittle like other types paints do. If you want the paint to remain flexible I wouldn't recommend adding hardener. That would make it brittle. From what I've read the effects of thermal expansion are negligible compared to the effects from humidity. If you've prepped the surface properly the humidity factor should be greatly reduced.
I've seen both types used & work well until something breaks down & allows moisture to enter. Which lasts longer? Which is better? Don't know for sure. But this seems like a moisture problem starting from inside the wood.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Well it's Sunday morning, I put the second coat of yellow on my sign last night. It looks great not a wrinkle to be found ! The paint seems to be nice and dry, ie no fingerprints to be had. I have some thin lines to put on in blue. I'm gonna use some paint mask that i will cut on the plotter. My plan is to spray in the blue with my airbrush. the bulletin blue I have seems pretty thin. I don't know if I'll have to thin it or not. I expect it to cover yellow pretty well in any case, I think this shouldd go well.
In retorspect it's pretty easy to see my mistakes and lack of foresight. We all know what they say about hindsight. I applied an oil based paint onto an undercoat that was not cured yet. The top coat that I applied was way too thick also. I tried to go too fast without thinking first and it cost me big.
On the subject of gloss on wood. It is my opinion that glossy letters look great on a flat background depending on the individual sign. It won't always look good but as a general rule I would say that this is the case. One of the coolest signs I ever made had glossy dark green letters on a flat beige background with green border and accents. Was and still is a really sharp sign. Incidentally the b/g was latex and the letters were oil. Flat on flat tends to be kinda plain jane. Again just my opinion.
Thanx fer all yer help !
It aint over yet.
Steve
-------------------- Steve Aycock Designs 3489 Oswald St. Johns Island, SC zaor@warpdriveonline.com Posts: 124 | From: Charleston, SC | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Can this little fish ask a quick little question?
I skipped over some of this thread, to save time, so I don't know if this ever got mentioned.
Does anyone out there ever add a bit of japan dryer to their paint to speed up the drying time on the first coat of enamel before adding the second coat? I do, and it seems to work fine. Humid as hell down here, so I've appreciated the time saving results.
Is this a bad thing? Seems to have been working for me.
Humbly, Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Japan Dryer por 1Shot hardner do help....but.... "The hurrier you go...the behinder you get!"
Knocking out a vinyl/coroplas sign in a hurry is not a problem...buit a complex sign, such as this, takes time, no matter how much of a hurry the custmer seems to be in.
REMEBER: Lack of planning on the customer's part, does not translate into an emergency on your part! Be realistic in just how long a sign will take to manufacture, and add a little time fer "unplanned things"
[ August 10, 2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Steve I tried the same;primed a tank with automotive primers-then tried to finish coat with water based enamles.The paint just wrinkled.Try useing oil primers with oil paints and water primers with water paints.Good luck.Opinions are cheap and every-one has one.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Japan Dryers are No Better then a few drops of Lacquers as curing agents. Lacquers will dull the paint a bit but you can add linseed (a few drops) to help keep the shine.. Burnt Linseed Oils.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I was also wondering about the moisture content of the wood as a possible contributing factor.
Steve, consider trying First Step as the sealer on your next sign. It is really tough stuff and really helps hold the wood together at the edges. I also prefer the look of gloss letters and flat backgrounds.
Sorry I didn't answer your question about the stain background right away. The redwood I get has such a tight grain, that I've never been able to use latex stain. I just can't work it into the grooves because it's just too thick. So for the past 20 years I've been using oil stain. I really like Sign Life's Stains (makers of First Step) but their color selection is very limited. I've had very good luck with True Value Stains and am lucky to have a paint person at my local store that can mix about any color I want. I also like Mautz Stains but cannot get them here.
One benefit of using oil stain is they do not build up and leave a small verticle edge on the rubber. They do soften the rubber slightly so I pat, not wipe, excess stain off the letters. If you wipe, it can lift the rubber and let stain underneath.
[ August 12, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It seems you weren't alone. My apologies for that. Let's go to the same meet or seminar sometime. I know you have more experience than me - so please accept my apologies if I try to 'bleed some knowledge' off you when we do meet.
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