That would be rout. Route can be pronounced the same as rout or it can be root but rout is always rout. Class dismissed...
Look at Vytek routers. Lots of features and well built. I have looked at the Camtech's and they seem pretty nice. They have a router that runs upright and will fit through a standard door.
You might check out the ShopBot's while you are at it. A very basic router capable of 3-D. It is very affordable. The software might be lacking but that opinion is from listening to other people, not experience.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Isn't Pittsburgh, NH the town with the really cool post office stashed back into a big ol' thicket of pine trees? It's the general store, gas station, post office, center of town?
Just curious if it's the place I am thinking of. Was through there on my first honetmoon.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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be prepared to spend alot more...i spent about 40k by the time the wiring and other little things were added up(and that's cheap)54" x 100". software is very important...i think artcam pro rules in that area but is very expensive...and some will disagree...i'm not here to debate. be prepared for the learning curve of your life. if you thought you were once smart...you'll be wondering about that too. make sure the company you deal with will be around for a long time and that they know what they are doing...sorry but for that price i'm pretty sure you'll be getting it in a crate with a booklet of directions on how to put it together. do your homework and know this...it isn't for the faint hearted...it can do incredible things and take your business in a hundred different directions if you so desire...but it's a lot of work! good luck!!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Bruce, Yup, that sounds like Pittsburgh, NH to me. I did a couple of race cars up there a few years back and always spent the drive home dodging moose!
Great place for snowmobiling and ice fishing in the winter.
See ya in Quebec! I'll be wearing bells.....cow bells???...
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I've done a fair amount of research over the last couple of years with CNC's. (I never buy anything without doing some extensive research).
First, find out what your needs are. For instance, if you want to cut/rout most HDU and a few materials other than metal, you might want to consider an entry-level Shopbot. To say entry-level is a bit unfair, for I've seen the Shopbot go beyond that. I say entry-level because it is affordable and does the job.
Personally, I'm leaning heavily towards a Warthog. A dealer in Atlanta who sells Camteks now wants to sell Warthogs, so that says something. We may well be demo-ing and promoting Warthogs here if we purchase one...still working out the details. Also check the Signweb message board and do a search there for CNC routers.
I believe there are still several people selling Vytek's, Sabres or X,Y,Z CNC routers there affordably. The most bang for your buck is the MultiCam.
If you are interested in a Warthog as I am, I know the owner of the company and, possibly, can arrange something to make it more affordable to your budget. (E-mail me with your information and we'll talk) I have a friend who just sold his newer Shopbot for the faster-cutting Warthog and he loves it...one reason I'm thinking about purchasing one myself. Also, if you're along the delivery path, we might be able to share and split the shipping (which saves). Warthogs, basically, come right off the truck and one are ready to plug in and get started...after a few CNC basics.
Hope this helps!
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Karen and I have the identical set up (including the $9,000 Art Cam Software) I couldn't be happier. The machine is rock solid and the software will blow your mind. And I couldn't agree more with the learning curve. You'll be able to get a lot out of the machine with three days training. But I've taken a 3 day class at Hyatt's and I'm tyaking abnother one soon to tap the more intriguing (read "harder") features. But I think if you're going to get a seriuos set up, 40-50K is what you should be thinking about spending.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
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As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. I did a fair amount of research before making my decision.
Most important feature you'll want in a table is manufacturer support. We bought a 5'x10 Multicam and with lease payback will be looking at $60k.
I've had a few disappointments with Multicam but nothing too serious. I based the decision to buy from them on the fact that they have over 3,000 tables installed worldwide and that says a lot. I also bought from them because they have local support here in the state of Florida. I could have bought a comparable table out of state for $7,000 less but wanted the piece of mind knowing that they were an hour away.
I also asked for a list of customers that I could call and they obliged. I was lucky to speak with Multicam owners who were honest. Some had bad things to say and some had good. But most were satisfied that the company tried to help them when they had issues.
Going on two years now and the table for the most part has been rock solid other than the keypad LED display acting all whacky at times. They tell me I have to pay to have it replace so I give it a good slap and that cures it for a little while.
Depending on what you plan to cut with it you have many software options. We went with Cadlinks ProfileLab primarily for the raised prismatic feature and v-carving. I don’t like the fact that Cadlink offers no training on the software and its a bitch to learn on your own by trial and error. I would rather have paid $2,000 up front to learn and go straight to work with it. Because I had to teach myself it set me back nearly a year on my planned marketing for the new capabilities.
I’m pretty adept at learning software and it took me close to 10 months before I felt comfortable.
My best advice for anyone considering the jump into CNC is to make sure you have your intended market in place for it. If you do a lot of sandblasted signs now you won’t be doing them much longer. I can assure you that you're going to start designing all of your work for the router. Its only natural that you will want it running as much as possible.
Karyn is right about the extras too such as the electrical and even the shipping and setup.
It’s a great tool and opens up many new doors but its a big step money wise and education wise.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
But, Bob, (and I think I asked you this before)with the CNC router eliminating alot of the sandblast effort, doesn't it, in fact, become very time consuming with the router for hogging out and then routing textured backgrounds like wood grain, stone, etc? Also, sometimes, "risky" with valuable goods on the table?
I'm familiar with Multicam since we have one nearby. As you said, most are pleased and have paid for themselves. As said, they (MC's)are the most bang for the buck.
Sounds like you got a tool changer, colombo spindle and mister too.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Dave, methinks Karyn bought something other than a Warthog. A Camtek maybe? Your post confused me a little, especially about problems with certain routers. Were you referring to Warthog or the brand Karyn bought? Warthog, from what I know, is a very decent brand for the money. Bill Glenn is a very nice and honorable business man too.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Fran I didn't go with the tool changer. In fact I'm not sure that was an option on our table. I did go with the heavy duty 20hp vacuum hold down and the beefed up dust collection system. We did add the misting system but have never used it once and we've been able to cut aluminum on the table without lube yet. If I were going to be cutting a lot of metal then I would use it.
And hogging out doesnt take that long. There are tricks to speeding up the process.
And I hope I dont have to make a sandblasted sign anyway. Everyone can offer that and lately the price for sandblasted signs has been driven down just like the vinyl so I'd rather separate myself from those markets and only offer exceptional dimensional signs using premium exotic materials something none of my competitors are able to do.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
just so you know...the dual drive is made by glenn tech..which also makes warthog...i'm very happy with my router and software...as far as getting artcam pro for $4k...i guess the distributors can set the price for the router pkg, just as car dealers do...0% or $3500 cash back...when i bought my router pkg the vacuum hold down system was free...i guess they could have said artcampro is $4k and charged for the vacuum system...6 in one hand 1/2 dozen in the other...nevertheless artcam pro 6 mfg retail price is $8995.00. i do not believe that you could buy a legal artcam pro 6 for $4k if you weren't spending $$$ on a router sustem. i got a great setup for $36k...plus the $4k spent on electrical wiring, magnetic field switch box etc....i'm happy with my purchase and hyatts so that's all that matters to me.
edit...yes the dust collection does need improvement...i'm rigging up something similar to gerbers but legally it can't be done by the manufacturers because of patents gerber has...i can modify that easily enough...it hasn't been a huge issue but it is one i will perfect when i have some extra time.....not any time soon!
[ August 04, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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actually just to be clear...hyatts swapped their controller and cpu with me because i was having a few issues in the beginning...i was never down. i was their first set up with the windows cnc program that drives the router...it turned out to be a numerical setting that caused the problem...they wanted to make sure it was totally solved so that's why it was months...but i was never down or compromised with the routers capabilities.
so david what did you finally end up with for your system and where are you taking your classes for artcam pro 6...i would love to take another class...so much to learn!! are you up and running? you actually aren't that far away from the white mtns...nice area up your way! i've lettered a few trains in the colebrook area a few years back. did you ever find a supplier that goes up your way?
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I've setup a couple of Techno's routers here locally. They're solid units.
The first shop was having problems getting everything to work right, mostly because of computer/software issues.. the router worked just fine though. I got them setup with MasterCAMM and after that everything was easy breezy.
The second place called me because the first shop recommended me. They had the table setup but they wanted help with the router connections (easy as pie) and software installation/setup (also easy).
The thing about routers and other CNC equipment is that they're only as good as their operators.
The CNC process is easy, there's nothing to it and any monkey can run the machine. I'm not saying that to be ignorant, I'm saying it because I've been there before... on both the operation side and the CNC design/code side designing molds that were cut from huge steel blocks. It's essentially a glorified vinyl cutter and we all know anyone can operate a cutter. The trick is taking the time to learn the technical limits of the machinery so you can incorporate them into the design process.
The machines themselves operate on very simple principles... X, Y and Z coordinates. If there's a coordinate specified, the CNC is going to hit it on the mark, plus or minus whatever the tolerance for the unit is. There's no special equipment requirements for a CNC unit in order to be able to do this, all ya need is the controller units and the stepper or servo motors. You can buy *just* the controllers and motors to do full 3D operations for about $3000 or less, if you have the ability to fabricate your own drivelines, table and gantry.
That being said, the difference then comes down to the operator's (actually the designer's) abilities. 2D operations are pretty simple and can be handled by any CAD or graphics package, but true 3D is very complex. The learning curve comes in when you decide to try 3D, and in this case it's programs like ArtCAM or SurfCAM (or Solidworks, SoftImage, Unigraphics, Pro/E, Catia, Rhino3D, BobCAD or MasterCAMM) that can make or break you. These programs take care of generating the require coded instructions that the router can recognize, but if in the design stage you specify a radius or other cut that lays beyond the equipment's limitations... oh boy.. are you gonna be in for a BIG surprise.
Basically the differences between a less expensive CNC and an expensive one are going to be in the support from the manufacturer, and the size/speed/power/accuracy of the unit... and in all honesty, since we're talking about signs here anything within a 1/16" tolerance is more than acceptable, even the cheapest CNC solution comes well within that. Anything that involves the way the machine works (or problems with the way it works) is strictly related to the designer/operator/software cause the machine only follows the instructions it's been given, "to the "t".
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote: The most bang for your buck is the MultiCam
Have to agree. Been using a Multicam for about 8 years. Shop around but check them out also.
Kris Hanchette used to be on this board but a search didn't turn up anything. He came to our shop twice from Grapevine, TX during set up of the table. Check them out at their web site .
-------------------- Dave Johnson Saltsburg, PA
724-459-7240 Posts: 228 | From: Saltsburg, PA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Dave, Some People Might Scoff at the shopbot as they think its a entry level or a budget Machine. This is my second CNC router as my first one was a Camtec 4x4. I have had my Shopbot a year and half now and never have had a problem with it. Its not as fast as the Multicams and Tecnos but not to many bits will hold up to 4ips cutting anyway. Some people will say the shopbot is not as accurate.. We get about .02 Repeatable accuracy. Granted thats not close tolerances but we make signs not parts for the space shuttle. I will by no way slam the other router companies out there as thay are all great machines. My main reason for the shopbot was cost.. I was on a tight budget. And after using it I very pleased with the results I Get and I can be competitive in the market place as I dont have the $600 a month payment to worry about. With the money I saved I got Artcam pro.. (I agree with everyone Artcam rules.)And bought a Roland 3d scanner to boot.. Hers a link to some of the work I have done with the shopbot decide for yourself.. http://incolor.inetnebr.com/debekker/ If you have any questions feel free to email me.
posted
Having built a couple of routers for sign making over the last 10 years, I have made most of the mistakes.
Ernie's rules of routers: 1)avoid any router that works only with HPGL. While fine for plotters, it can't handle 3D in any reasonable way. Fanuc G-code is widely used in CNC machining thus it is easily supported.
2)avoid any stepper motor driven router unless it has microstepping (eg 3200 steps/revolution). Servo motors are best for speed.
3) avoid any router that is slow, (my router is slow so I know about this problem) 600 or more inches per minute would be good. 3D files from artcam can run for hours unless the router is very fast.
4) make sure the router can clamp substrates easily, the vacuum tables with a sacrificial surface can't be beat.
5) make sure the router uses controller electronics that are commercially available, a fanuc controller or a board from a leading motion contoller vendor is best. They are debugged, stable and you want to find replacement parts in 10 years, the right router will last a long time. oddball electronics from a long gone fly-by night company are difficult to fix a few years down the road.
6) make sure the system is mechanically overbuilt with high quality linear slides, ballscrews or rack&pinions. As soon as you master foam you will have applications for metal cutting.
7)Accuracy is always important, I often find myself making 0.010" height adjustments to get the V-cut incised letters to be cut at the correct width.
8) be prepared to spend lots of money and time. Even my little home made router cost $10k to build. I didn't make it big enough so now I have to cut some then move the substrate re-align everything and finish cutting. You will always have jobs bigger than the router can do in one pass. I have made as many as 18 files for one 4'x12' sign.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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Well, as of Wednesday I'm gone for three weeks, so what the hell...
I don't see a CNC router as being worth the money UNLESS you have repetitive high-volume work. If you want to offer "carved signs", then save $39,000 by purchasing a $200 set of chisels and gouges, get some scrap HDU, and spend a weekend or so in the company of a decent hand carver, who can at least show you how not to spring leaks while playing with sharp tools. But hey, if Driaper wants an expensive new toy and can afford it, well go for it. The finance companies need money too.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We've had our ShopBot router for about a year and a half. We are very pleased with the performance of the router and the support from the manufacturer. We use Cadlink's Profile Lab for our routing software. The learning curve must be taken into consideration as an "expense" for your company. Our gross sales are down approximately 20% from last year this time mainly because we have not been able to sell and produce as much due to the learning curve. Also, we have been chomping through bits at a rate of about $100 per month. We expected this would be the case (although it's taking a bit longer than we would have liked), but the good news is that the business is more profitable.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If anyone has a problem making money with their CNC routers, I'll gladly take 'em off your hands (you keep the bills though.. hahaa).
For the doubters like Cam yes there are some jobs that could be done faster with a paper pattern but then there are jobs like MDO cut to a simple shape that can be knocked out very quickly and more importantly very cleanly/neatly requiring little to no edge finishing, saving labor.
There are so many uses for CNC routers outside of the sign industry where you can bring in some serious coin, so if you hit a slump with signs you still have profitable work available elsewhere.
If nothing else, take the router head off and replace it with a laser or even a plasma cutter, then you REALLY open some doors.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I have 5 Isel machines , bought the 1st one in 86 or so and ALL of them are running still with NO parts replacements (apart from routing motors and an IC or 2 on the driver boards) We are not gentle with them and sometimes they have run 24/7 for over a week. However , these were light duty machines and we upgraded a while ago to Tekcel which is a serious router. The BEST application for overhead routers is cutting or routering NOT 3d engraving (which is time consuming and requires major programming skills and some expensive software) Do not think of NOT getting a vacuum table , it is an essential , a spray mist and lube recovery system is too if you want to do metals (tho you can use chilled compressed air blowing on the material) as is vacuum for chip removal at the cutting head. Get as powerful a motor as possible , minimum for mediun duty work is about 7 hp , 10hp is better. Software is a huge issue - We use Artcam , Signlab/Engravelab/Profile lab and Mastercam - expensive stuff and not at all easy to learn. Do not buy a machine that cannot have a tool changer added , its a huge limitation and it negates the automation capabilites of a decent machine. Added to that , extra axes are a big plus , especially roraty axes. IMHO using an expensive machine like that to rout 3d signs in wood is not a worthwhile application unless it is on a production type basis. This is not a machine that will make you money from day 1. You are going to need an operator/designer , a decent puter and screen as well , a lot of patience , lots of accesories and a room to house it all in. Stuff like mdf dust , various plastic/metal swarf etc is not good for other machinery , safety or health so its best to have a dedicated facilty for a machine like this , with good ventilation , extraction , space to store materials , output racks , material handling facilities. We use our engravers/routers for many purposes , funnily enough VERY LITTLE 3d signs (and we work extensively for the signage industry) Applications are: Engraving , Mimic/instrument panels , cut letters (big application , especially aluminim and MDF) , mdf and wood bases/boxes/ etc (These things rip thru wood like butter , various promotional items , brass/metal backs for keytags & badges etc , cutting any metal our lasers can't , 3d moulds for perspex/plastics forming , perspex for Point of sale displays , chocolate moulds , large runs of tags , die sinking , brass foiling dies and so on. Be aware of one thing , fine engraving on these big machines is very slow if you want good output , even with servo motors , the inertia of a big head is high and it cannot change direction very quickly , in fact the engraving on our stepper motor light duty machines is a LOT better at high speeds. Buy a machine that can be retrofitted with other stuff , like reciprocating knives or a laser head or a trailing knife , it increases flexibility a lot. In fact , a decent laser like a GCC Explorer with lets say 100 watts of power and a bed size of 1m x 500mm is a FAR bigger and better money making machine and its a hang of a lot easier to do 3d signage (only problem is that a CO2 laser doesnt engrave or cut metal in that power range) Our lasers turned our business around in a FAR bigger way than our CNC router or ANY other machine we bought. - We now have 3 in the space of about 2 years - and have upgraded our older smaller less potent ones to bigger stuff. Lasers for a sign business , if used well , are almost a license to print money. We combine output of various machines , we have 3x lasers , 6 x Cnc routers , acid etching plants , sandblasting , large format digital print and cutting plotters , 2x thermal print and cut machines , manual engraving machines, large format hot and cold laminators laminators etc. The output from our router is most often combined with other stuff and is used a LOT internally. For example we might cut and shape stainless on the router , cover it with polyester vinyl , use a laser to vaporise the vinyl , use a sandblaster to clear the glue residue and hot spray etch it. Or use the digital printer to print and die cut full colour vinyl , use the router to cut shaped brass/nickle backs , apply the vinyl , add an epoxy dome and voila , you have a badge or keytag. Whats nice is that most of our packages can import or export for another , so lets say we design in Corel , we can cut and paste into signlab. As a novice in the field , I would start out with a very simple machine , something cheap that can cut well and do limited 2 1/2 d work and then progress to the heavy duty stuff - by the time you have got to where you need the big mutha's , you will have learnt a lot in regard to tools , machining speeds , material properties , software and the limitations of any machine at very little cost. We hardly use the full size of our big tables and a lot of jobs are done on a 500 x500 isel with a 900 watt variable speed motor with stepper motor drives (I picked up my last one 2nd hand for about $1k with a controller box etc) Trying to make a market for a machine like this , especially if there are others in your area is very difficult. Its going to be really hard to be quicker and better than them.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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Well we have had a Gerber Sabre 408 for alost 2 years now without any problems. And with you already being familiar with Gerber software (at least I think you are) the learning curve shouldn't be too overwhelming. They are right about the electrical work though it is a bit extensive. 3 phase 220 had to be run to our building before we could use it. We also had a rigging company move it from our garage to the "router room" for us. It only took them about half hour, but the agony of seeing our $40k toy hanging sideways was a bit hard to watch.
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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Thanks Bob, Karyn, Dave and everybody for such good info.
I'm clear on a lot of things now, but confused about others. No problem though, I'll sift through it all.
Speaking of CNC, I had a problem recently with Harbor Sales in Maryland who cut a couple of "ready-shapes" in signfoam from a file I sent them generated in Corel. I was very precise, but let me describe what happened. Once recieved, I cut my rubber SB mask and discovered that the shapes were not square; i.e., out as much as 1/8" to 3/16" cross corner. I went back to my original drawing and checked all dimensions to 1/128th accuracy and also the exported "ai" file I sent to them via e-mail. It also proved out. I checked my rubber mask cut on a 30" Gerber Envision sprocket plotter, and IT was right on. I spoke to a couple of CNC gurus and the only conclusion they could come up with is that the gantry or x,y was out of calibration, although I have another different shape cut in MDO the same week by Harbor that is pretty much right on. Harbor runs a Sabre 408, so I checked with Gerber and they hadn't a clue what could be wrong. I discussed the matter as a constructive suggestion with Harbor and they, essentially, didn't want to be bothered and attributed the problem to my file. I could have sent the pieces back, but decided to work with it instead, rather than tick them off. (Methinks they didn;t want to halt production to check their X, Y axis.) For Chrisssake, these were merely shapes, not 3D Rembrandts. Anyway, anyone have a solid clue why this would happen? The future solution is to produce such things elsewhere which may entail material procurement from another vendor. Harbor, for the most part, is a fairly good service/supply company, but I've had similar CNC issues with them that were pointedly their fault. Although, they usually "make good" with a little haggling, their demeanor seems to be to point the finger the other way. I'm fairly meticulous in the prep of a file (for both parties), especially when expensive materials are involved. Not to start a conspiracy theory, but because I've raised issues in the past with Harbor, one begins to get the impression that maybe someone "played" with my file so I would eventually take the work elsewhere and they (Harbor)can continue on with their "bang-out" work. As said, they're usually pretty good, but it's that once-in-a while thing, especially with CNC stuff, that seems to cause a problem. I'm living with the current one, although it will take hours on my behalf to correct their work. Net result = one step closer to the purchase of my own CNC router. Question still remains: Whose to buy. I intend to do only HDU, MDO and, maybe, MDF stuff. I'm a little skeptical about the brand I mentioned earlier with all the recent input. Still, I'm encouraged and informed from what I've read.
Thanks again, one and all.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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If your files all check out on your end, it's something on Harbor's side.
It could be their software that generates the actual cutting path, with a router you have to compensate for the bit diameter. If you use the same cut path for a vinyl cutter and router tool path, the router work will come out too small. Maybe they didnt compensate, or when their software generated the tool path something goofed up in the translation.
Their gantry could be out of calibration but with a $40,000 CNC I would expect that thing to be damn near bulletproof.
If they're using a vacuum hold down system it IS possible for the work to slide. A steel table is a relatively slick surface, and if there was any dust on the table it only makes it worse.. the router driveline has more than enough power to push the material.
I don't think they would have changed your file just to **** you off. ALL work is "bang out" work on a CNC if you have properly setup files, and it sounds like yours may have just been rectangular in shape? Can't get any easier than that!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Thanks, MIke, you're a sport! All you said was considered. I've done this all before with other CNCer's and it's been pretty much on the mark. All I have to tell Harbor is that it's male or female. Bit compensation is considered. File starts as Corel to 1/128th accuracy, is exported to ai and then imported into their Gerber software. My files and rubber are right on. Theirs is out of square. They say, if substrate moves there'd be a nipple in the goods. Something's funky. I'll live with the mistake, but a router's coming soon. BTW, just blasted with a local glass bead blast booth... lower CFM but it worked great, slower, but effective on smaller signs.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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JD Iles and I were talking about getting another ArtCam class going. A bit more advanced than the beginning class. If anyone wants to join, email me at mark@gbsignco.com
The class will probably be in Eastern Mass.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
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For several years I have looked into buying a router. Looked mainly at Gerber and MultiCamm, and Artcam software. (also checked out Warthog & Shopbot at the other end of the market).
Anyway my interests were in having a machine take the place of another pair of hands making me more versatile and being able to produce more. The minimum investment at the cheap end software, machinery and set up would have been around $20,000, and at the other end....
That for fun took the "fun element" or "extra toy" feeling away.
I have quite a big workshop but the idea of a machine working non stop making stuff for other shops etc didn't appeal. It was then too large of an investment to make dimensional signs or add ons for them. I invested a few years ago in Clemco (heavy industrial) sandblast equipment and have never regretted it. The dimensional signs look more alive than routed signs, and add-ons, and free standing letters are all done on band saws and scrollsaws here, and probably just as quick.
3D carving is very slow, if you look at Artcam software, open a bitmap and then convert it to toolpaths you will see how long and complicated it is for the router to make the piece. All night jobs.
I know you moved recently to a new shop and that you run an Edge and other Gerber equipment, I guess you have to assess what market you have and the direction you want to take.
There is alot of truth in what Cam says, its so easy today to get signed up on this that and the other.
If its a really big project we can't handle we have a guy on the same industrial estate that does waterjet cutting (8 x 4 cutting area), he just takes a dxf file and cuts pvc sheeting, aluminium, steel, and he's cut HDU too after a little learning curve.
We still make good money on those jobs too. Sometimes its better to buy in some services.
posted
Question for Bob Stephans or someone. I've seen CNC's with vac hold downs that use a sacrificial sheet. Is the material to be routed then screwed to the sacrifice sheet or does the vac somehow work through/around the sacrifice sheet. Sounds like a stupid question, I know, but if one is to clamp (or vac) down a sacrifice sheet and they secure the substrate with screws or something, then why have the vac hold down?...convenience over "clamping'?
Thanks.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
my table uses a sacrificial sheet of mdf...after you mill off the paper layer the material is poureous enough for the vacuum suction to hold down material...provided you're not putting down a warped piece of mdo...i actually use double face tape alot for extra security....if i'm using an expensive material i want that extra protection...i don't bother with tape on dibond, aluminum, alumilite, komtex because it doesn't really warp...but i use it on most others..mdo, corian, colorcore, hdu...since my top layer is sacrificial i've also screwed it right into the table...after i've milled it 3 or 4 times i get a new piece, glue it & screw it on and mill the paper lining off.
[ August 06, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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The sacrificial sheet is a sheet of MDF that is the top sheet of the vac table. The vacuum is so powerful, it goes right through the sheet of MDF. No holes. No pin holes. It just sucks right through 3/4" of MDF. The benefit of a vac table is it can hold small pieces without clamping them. Clamps can interfere with the router's movements.
Also, you can set your finished depth a hair deeper than your material so you can completely cut out your piece. This, of course will "scar" your sacraficial sheet. But that's why it's called that. When it gets really marked up, you run an end mill over the whole thing and take off a 1/6", and...BINGO! A brand new sacrificial table! When the top sheet gets too this, you unscrew it, put on a new sheet of MDF and you start all over. It's really a great system. I was amazed when the tech first put the table together and he told me the vacuum was going to suck right through the MDF, but, damn, you can't budge the material when the vacuum is on.
Call me, or email me if you want any more info on tables.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I had a tangential knife made by the folks at MultiCam for my 48Plus table. I use it to cut engineer and diamond grade Scotchlite. I've always used masonite peg board material for a sacrificial surface for the router. As a sacrificial table for the knife, I use a piece of 1/4" Sintra. I guess maybe sacrificial isn't the right word for the Sintra because it's 8 years old and still in good condition.
I used the router to drill 1/4" holes through the sintra and part way into the original top to dowl pin it at oposite corners. I then used the router to drill 1/8" holes through the Sintra in the center of original vacuum holes before milling the surface.
To switch between router and knife all that is required is removing 4 screws and one cable connector. The table then becomes a 108" x 54" flatbed plotter with vacuum hold down.
-------------------- Dave Johnson Saltsburg, PA
724-459-7240 Posts: 228 | From: Saltsburg, PA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
So, ladies and gents, let's summarize with some tangible info. Whose CNC router would you buy for $15 to $20K and which for $40 to $50K and upward? The choices are limited. I only want to do HDU myself and maybe some plastics, plywoods, etc. No metal, no plasma, etc.
Often one has to start somewhere and work up from there. Sure, I'd love to have a Multicam but neither can afford or want to take the risk at this stage of my life (notice, I didn't say 'at my age') although, I'm not THAT old). Can't quite reckon having a piece of equipment almost what my mortgage is.
So what say ye all, CNC gurus?
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
All I can say is I'm VERY happy with my Dual Drive by Hyatt's. ($39K incl. software & training) The factor that clinched it for me is it had to go into the basemeny of my shop. The Gerber Sabre comes as one solid unit. There's no taking it apart. The Dual Drive is built on location. They've built one in somebody's attic! So, that's my summary.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Rogan The Great Barrington Sign Company 2 Stilwell Street, Great Barrington, MA 01230 mark@gbsignco.com
"Sometimes I think my head is so big because it is so full of fonts" Posts: 332 | From: Great Barrington, MA | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
we had an australian built multicam which started life as a 4'x4' table and ended up 10'x4' when we got sick of moving the sheets along
funny how we, like most folk, got our machine for one reason and ended up doing everything but
the first job we did with our table was way beyond what we thought we bought it for
we made 20' & 24' high alluminium stencils for a main roads department the alphabet plus directional arrows for road marking
the 10' panels were joined with piano hinges, they folded up for stacking on a truck and since we didn't have to supply the alluminium sheets (customer did) the $12,000 we got for the job was not a bad start to addressing the cost ($40,000) of the new toy
the problems with the led controler that Bob mentioned only happened once a few years after we got the machine but was an expensive twist to the tale
fitting the gantree with a simple throw away router head was the best thing we ever did (they lasted about a year and were cheaper than having the bushes and bearing done in the imported heads)... extending the bed size getting a pounce wheel made for the tangential knife holder moving the cpu from under the table to a wall mount (gravity means crap in your cpu box... doh) were all good moves
we used our router for more wholesale work than retail in the first few years before other shops got tables of their own
the little things that come to mind now that i'm think of it make me smile like when we would do a shop front for a customer and ask them toward the end of the job if they'd like their shop name painted in their parking spaces the answer was always yes please, and the extra $'s it put on the job for the 5 min's it took to make a stencil and spray was a blast... not to mention that they would need us back every so often to freshen up the road marking and while we were there we would pick up more work from them... win... win...win
knifing mask and spray panels for light boxes then changing the head to cut the acrylic to shape shaved hours of a job and while the table was working away in the background other fun stuff was happening on the walls
we did use the table for what we had originally bought it for once a year,when we cut out the xmas yard art that we sold to the general public but instead of selling a 100 peices over a xmas season using the table to cut 3 up meant that we had 3 times the stock t sell
devo often said that he could have got 2 harley's for the price he paid for the cnc, it made as much noise and as much mess as 2 more bikes would have
but they wouldn't have earnt us the money that the table did so as far as toys go... we won!
cheers gail
-------------------- Gail & Dave Hervey Bay Qld Australia
gail@roadwarriorproducts.com.au
sumtimes ya just gota! Posts: 794 | From: 552 O'Regans Creek Rd Toogoom Qld 4655 Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks, Dave. What is the advantage of the "dual drive"? Please explain and how it works. So you're saying that I could, feasibly, get a dual drive Warthog for $10K less than the Tsunami?
Thanks.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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