Anyone know of a two-part epoxy with some working time that is pumped into a mixing pot...used to join sign foam? Don't want to use gorilla glue or something of that ilk because of the expansion factor. Finished sign faces are being joined back to back with aluminum extrusions embedded between them...just don't know what epoxy to use. The "pump" type strikes me as being a clear-type epoxy vs. the "putty-type" which has to be knifed and mixed. I'm joining larger areas, therefore, need to mix up a health batch and have some working time.
Any other tips would be helpful too...like where to get it...etc.
Thanks.
Fran
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Through all the research I've been doing for my HDU project I found this site.......It will have everything you need for working HDU. Look towards the bottom and you'll see urethane adhesives, primers and fillers!
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Fran, Chuck is right. You really do need to use PB240 for this project. I can talk you through it if you email your phone number. Pierre
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Yeah, Chuck, I was looking at that earlier today.
Thanks. Someone suggested the EPbond- 240. I'll have to go back and read about that. I think this is similar to gorilla glue, but I might be wrong. Another sign guy told me he stopped using gorilla glue-type stuff because when he joined sign faces it bled out the edges and involved additional time cleaning it up. Said since he's been using 2 part epoxy instead, but he didn't say which. He did say, though, that for edge finishing to use the knife-grade FSC-360. I like the FSC products, although I once hated them. Got to learn how to use them to appreciate...
One final(repetitive) thought: For the cost of HDU whichever brand, they oughtta give you the filler/primers. Frankly, these HDU people got us signmakers by the finials. Most of them assume (or try to dictate)that everyone gets a $100 to $120 (or more) a square foot for HDU signs to justify their cost. Not necessarily true in alot of cases. Most suppliers say they're only making a mere $20.00 per sheet at best and have to buy large quanitities to be a supplier. That's bull (at least the first part)! Suppliers of HDU are a secret society...if we all really knew how much they (mfgr. & supplier) make on a sheet of HDU, we'd get out of the crude oil business and into the urethane business. These guys make a bundle, trust me...and pass the cost (of their vast profits) on to us and, thus, our customers.
Sorry, just venting like most of the guys I've talked to about this... everyone's waiting for something better and cheaper to come along. Ever think what would happen if there was a HDU shortage like the oil crisis of '74 '75? Get in line boys! Cash only.
Thanks again.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Take Pierre's advice and let him contact you. He uses this everyday!
Good Luck
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just glued one back to back with westsystem epoxy. I got a little carried away and had too much squeeze-out but it didn't expand like the polyurethane would. When you mix up a batch, get it out of the mixing pot onto the surface as soon as possible. It cures much slower when it is in a thinner or smaller mass. Wet both surfaces out with straight epoxy, then apply thickened epoxy to one surface only. Clamp together just enough for uniform squeezeout, let set overnight.
If you spread this epoxy out in a thin sheet as soon as it's thoroughly mixed, you will have more than adequate working time before it starts to gel.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Yeah, guys, think I got it covered now. I may use what Pierre recommends this time. Just learned about the vintage westsystem epoxies, too, this morning. It would be cheaper for this one sign to use the PB or gorilla adhesives, though. There's also MAS epoxies right nearby, which is similar to the westsystem. Turns out westsystem is what I was looking for, but will go with Pierre on this one, this time.
Thanks All!
What, no comments about the high costs of HDU? We Americans eat it all the time and accept it, then pass it on. That's the American way and, in small measure, one reason why there's such animosity towards us around the world. But we are generous, especially with all the procedes from crude oil products and HDU, etc. Let us not forget our hard-earned taxes too!
Still looking for some patriots these days. What's that you say? They all starved to death? Don't think so, Patriots thrive on abstenance and boycott. 1 month boycott of HDU and the price will, indeed, come down. Trouble is, nobody has any 'finials' these days. And if they do, they're probably made of HDU! See my point?
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Since when is whining considered to be patriotic? I've been making dimensional signs since before there was HDU and I have no desire to go back. There are several companies making HDU panels now. If one of them could find a way to undercut the others they would do it in a second. Knowing how much they make on it is none of our business. If your customers knew how much you make on a sign they wouldn't like it either. If you don't like the prices, don't sell HDU signs. I'll gladly pay what they ask for a consistent quality product. Go ahead and boycott all you want, the other sign companies around you will gladly fill the void with HDU signs. You say you'll use Gorilla glue this time because it's cheaper. If cheaper is all you're after sell coroplast signs.
-------------------- Dennis Goddard
Gibsonton Fl Posts: 1050 | From: Tampa Fl USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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I was using Brand X. Brand X is one of the "name brands" Brand X costs too much, had voids and tracks running through it. I switched to Brand Y. More uniform, dust doesn't stick like it did on brand X. Costs me $29 less per sheet of 15# 1.5''. There is getting to be more competition in the HDU world. This should helpo drive the price down...just like it does for signs.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I use 3M's 2 part epoxy DP190 or a very similar 3M 2216 which is recomended by Sign-Foam in one of their older brochures, we were told over here that the DP 190 is the same but comes in the tubes you can load into a pistol dispenser, similar if not identical to the set up you see advertised with West epoxy only we can't buy that here.
As for pricing I wonder how much dealers make? I have had trouble getting Sign-Foam here, as the last guy selling it here stopped awhile back. I called sign-foam after talking to a company that builds loads of prototype models including stuff for Volvo Scania and Saab, they asked about shipping a sea container of the stuff here, and said I could then buy as and when I needed. Sign-Foam said the cost per sheet was the same whether we bought one sheet or filled a 40ft sea container, they weren't interested in us over here, said they could sell and sell in the US. Why should they discount a container load. Obviously as a little shop I couldn't afford anything like that. They do sell to the UK but the british currency is so strong and with the freight over the north sea its not worth it. WE use a superior board now, a much denser board, very smooth, abit more work to blast, but a great finish, with no fillers its made by Ciba-Araldite and is used for industrial protoype tooling, the downside is that its not available in larger sheet sizes so we glue them together.
I guess a European market of 250 million + is not worth going after. Most people here think HDU is some sort of styrofoam!
posted
There's roughly $80 worth of raw materials in a 4'x8' HDU panel that's 3/4" thick, or about $5,000 worth of materials in each 4'x4'x8' foam "billet".
***Edit*: By the way, that dollar figure is based on what *I* pay for two part high density foam, which is considerably more than a wholesale rate.***
The rest I'm sure is consumed in engineering and tooling costs to build the machinery and pressure vessels for production, not to mention the waste produced in production or the wasted panels that didn't meet Quality Control standards.
Here's a good tip: if *your* material costs alone are 20% or more of the final price of your work, you are not charging enough for it. If you sell a job with $500 worth of HDU in it, you better be getting a MINIMUM of $2500 for that project.
[ July 31, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Yes, I understand all that you say and I apologize for what struck you as "whining". I was merely reflecting my own and the sentiments of other signmakers around me I've spoken to. What troubles me is: How many 4 x 8 x 1-1/2" sheet goods cost as much HDU? Seems one could almost buy a fine piece of wood almost that size for the money. Listen, we could talk about this for weeks, tit for tat. The sad fact is: we have to live with what's handed to us, price and all. Used to be:'Give me Liberty or give me death'...Now it's: 'Pay the price OR die'
I just don't care for THAT mentality. And you know what? I don't think many others do either...still we live with it and laugh at the "whiners" or wieners...LOL
One signmaker locally gets the price down by telling the "other" guy, if you want me to buy HDU from you, you'll have to sell it to me less than who I'm buying it from now. Hand over hand...Choke up on the bat routine.
Dennis, also, on this "one" sign I'm currently doing, I estimated for gorilla glue or EPBond 240. In an effort to learn and improve upon the craft, I sought out other alternatives (topic of this post) which might save time in the future.
Unfortunately, a $150.00 output for westsystem or MAS epoxies isn't something I necessarily need to put into this job this time even though I could use the balance of it for months to come. So, don't be so quick to jump on someone. Let's face it, if someone came into your business and started dictating what you MUST do here-on-in, you might get annoyed, right? Well, HDU and other sign products are often expensive because the suppliers seem to dictate what they think we should be getting a square for HDU signs, etc. Thus, setting the standard. The money should be in the labor, craftsmanship and enginerring. In America they/we all do it... at the gas pump, prescription drugs, and so on down the line. I've been hearing the complaints around me and just thought I'd vent. But I guess being a 'god-in-fla' you're pretty set and outside the rest of the common folk who voice their dissatisfaction once in a while, hoping things could change instead of just going with the flow of everything and anything anyone wants to jam down our throats. It's a useless discussion, the culture is in full swing and there's no turning back the clocks, price, or mentality of passing-on the buck any time soon. Live for the moment, get what you can. Instead of a win-win, IMHO, it's a no-win situation. Live with it or get off the bus. Granted, HDU is a great product in many regards. The point is/was: that if one is to pay the cost...why so much prep and additional fillers and special primers to make it do what the high cost says it does. Clean, easy...then you have to...do this that and the other thing. Everything's almost proprietary to the product.
Mr. Pipes...thanks for your input too...honestly. I understand all you said about tooling, et als because I have an engineering background. Sooner or later the tool and R&D gets balanced and it's all profit from there. But...that's the American Way...so being an American, I'd best shut up now or "The Clan" gonna com' git me.
Love & Peace, Y'all.
The Reluctant Patriot.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Well, if you don't wan't to spend the money for HDU, you can always spend $9 a board foot for redwood that's labled: clear-heart-vertical grain, but is hard as a rock with all kinds of crazy grain in it..... IF you kind find it at all.
Save a tree! Buy HDU!
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Think about it, the additives (probably pollutants) and by products that go into HDU probably ruin the atmosphere. Of course with CO2 production the trees will thrive. We, our children and theirs might suffer the consequences. But, what the hell...live for the moment, seize the buck, right?
I say
Buy HDU here, you might help reck the atmosphere.
That is, the business atmosphere too.
Don't get me wrong and DO read ALL I said, not just phrases out-of-context that **** people off... I like HDU just as much as the next guy. But for $250.00 to $300.00 a sheet...let's fill, sand, fill, sand, epoxy, sand, level, etc. into oblivion? Let's remember there's a world and a life here that's worth taking in too at no cost. HDU is just another one of those things like prescription drugs, and gas, etc. that one's gotta pay the price to survive. Sad but true, so let's just admit it HDU stockholders. We don't conduct our lives, everything around us does. Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose.
Live for the moment, but live well. Follow the beat of your own drummer, not those who dictate how things will or should be...at least to some small, redeeming degree. Now, that'll save a tree or three for eternity!
Cheers.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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That's exactly what HDU does for us (us meaning the sign shop I work at). Fill a NEED! Lorio Design sold sandblasted redwood signs EXCLUSIVLEY for almost 20 years. Sandblasted redwood paid for my employers very nice home, chevrolet pickup, bassboat, horse, dog.... you get the picture. But now, redwood is becoming increasingly rare, expensive and inconsistent. We have found that we can use the same skills and equipment to produce demensional signage from HDU, which is AVAILABLE! It's not politics.... it's called making a living.
Did you know High Density Urethane was originally developed as insulation for the Apollo space program?
I also find pharmaceutical medication and gasoline very useful.
P.S. I've always wondered if there was something usefull you could do with all that vinyl besides shooting practice.
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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As of tonite, I now absolutely LOVE HDU! I'll pay the price, whatever it costs, even if it triples, even if it sells my labor short or I don't get the job. Even if it drives me to the grave. Materials must take precedence for without them we would be out of a living.
Maybe when the price triples, the 'Patriots' will resurrect themselves and/or recruit new ones. Good thing there's money in this country for people to buy our signs. Otherwise, HDU might just find themselselves OOB.
Thanks anyway...let's move on. We've wasted enough time on the HDU cost topic. It's good, we pay the price, live with it or forever hold your peace.
Find the cost of freedom buried in the ground, mother earth will swallow you...if you don't lay your dollars down...LOL!
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Whatchya sandin and fillin on HDU? Take a visit to your automotive paint and body supplier, you'll find products there to eliminate all that labor.. like high build polyester and urethane surfacers and primers.. materials heavy enough to fill any gouges in a single application, yet level out smooth and still stay in place even on a vertical surface until it dries. Of course you need the proper application and safety equipment, but you can level out a 4x8 in like 10 minutes, eliminating all the labor and mess.
And when you really think about it, you aren't paying for the HDU, or any other materials for that matter.. your customers are.. so if they want cheap, you give them cheaper materials.. if they want high end, you give them high end materials like HDU.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I just don't get the bitching about the price of HDU, I really don't. Out of the last sheet of 1", 15lb SignFoam I bought, I made 1 3'x4' single-faced carved sign which sold for 1700. From the 4'x5' "drop" I've made at least six other house signs (at $350 to $1500 each), a carved scallop shell for an applique, and the carved ribbon for a panel project for the meet in Ireland, and I think I still have some left. All out of a $200 material purchase. Carving HDU takes 1/3 the time of wood, I don't have to glue up planks to build sign panels. Yes, it has drawbacks; it needs backing up for strength on bigger pieces, and getting a smooth surface CAN be more work, though not always. Just the time savings in my labor alone make it worth buying. And as far as percentage of materials to selling price is concerned, I usually manage to keep it to 10 to 15%. Wood never treated me this good.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Cam,if you read all the posts, we went over all this. We're all aware of the +'s & -'s of HDU. The primal point is: it's expensive. I/we accept that...then there's all the things one has to do to it to get a mirror finish or whatever. That is, whether using automotive products, FSC-88 or whatever. End of story. And I'll 'bitch' now and then if I care to, but for the most part will try to make intelligent and constructive commentary or give advice to anyone when they need it. A couple of guys this way make their living with HDU. Without it they'd be out of business. Everyone else I speak to locally in the sign business dislikes the product for all the reasons I bring to bear... mostly all the prep work on top of the cost. When it first came out (HDU) some years back they (the dealers and mfgrs.)billed as being so easy to work with...and it is, now there's all this that (primers, fillers, epoxies,... more expensive stuff)now(a product of suggestions, complaints, and so on)made available to make it do and look like it was originally portrayed to do by it's purveyors. End of story!
Let's move on, for Chrisssssssssake.
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Fran, we shouldn't move on until all the bases are covered. Your main problem with HDU is your lack of knowledge on how to work it, or what materials to use. Your original post on what adhesive to use proves you are a novice in the world of HDU.
Please don't take this as a slam, I too was a novice at one time, we all were. You're putting down an aspect of a product without knowing all the facts.
Come to Tomahawk for the letterheads meet this month and you'll see a demonstration of how to get a rock hard, glass smooth finish in one easy step, and faster than painting a single coat of paint.
Thirty two square feet of 2 x 6 redwood in the rough costs me $1.00 less than a 1.5" thick 15lb. 4x8 sheet of HDU. By the time I joint, rip, plane, glue, sand it flat, then square and finish cut a redwood panel, my HDU sign is 3/4 finished. And don't forget the 15% to 20% waste in redwood.
There are great products out there that many of you don't know about for finishing flat top letters and graphics on HDU and doing a smalts background that will be demonstrated in Tomahawk.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Actually, I've been using HDU upward of 15 years now, but employing more traditional methods.
Originally (my post) was for a two part epoxy, pump type. As a rule, whenever I set out to do something, I don't pretend to know anything, for instance, though I may have a working knowledge of something, I go to those who seem better-versed and start from square one. Then it all gets blended in my cranium, brain surgery and wahla!
Granted, I'm am in no way an expert in HDU and, yes, there are many new and older products to speed up production that I am not familiar with.
I've given the matter some thought over the past week and considering that HDU costs (in these parts) from $7.00 to $8.50 a square for 15 lb., that ain't bad, mates, when you consider sandblasting at $5 to $7 a square (if one subs it out) and carving even more a square. I'd like to make Tomahawk (where is it?) but feasilbly with the forthcoming work load, may not be able to be there. Shucks! Anyway, I'd like someone to publish here in LH this method you speak of. Now that's some constructive dialogue. Thanks for not slamming...I'm a rather large fellow and fall hard. But when I sober up, I'm usually pumped with new knowledge.
I'm a bit thick-skinned sometimes, but soaking my skull in some cutical remover often softens me up.
Thanks to all who sent me the vats of CR and even the one guy who misunderstood and sent nail polish grade acetone. Ouch, that burned, but I don't have cooties anymore.
Three cheers for HDU!
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Our "Airport Mural", 5'x20' carving in 6" thick HDU. Precision Board + ship etc...$2,110.00 End Charges for Carving......$31,700.00
So... Waddaya think, Fran?
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Pierre, subject of post now changed from HDU expensive to Pierre's expensive....just kidding! Nice work. A lot of people suggest that I should have been a sculptor. If I ever get enough $ to retire, I'll probably do so in addition to fine art and writing. But for now, it's waddling through the cuticcal softener and acetone.
Thanks, buddy!
Fran
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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Atually, Fran....... carvings we did 15 years ago for $5,000 we now charge as much as $11,000. It took a while for us to get our buyers to accept carvings as a legitimate form of industrial signage. I used to be very hesitant to charge all that much for carvings back then... but not now. Now the Architects have taken the ball and the pockets are deep with those people.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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