posted
Reading another post reminded me of a customer who came in the Studio maybe 4 months ago. She had been to a sign shop that had taken quite some time producing a logo involving copy and a hotrod illustration. The "illustration" was obviously clipart, nothing original at all. The shop presented her with a bill (quite a bill) for the "research time" involved in finding a suitable hotrod. Long story short, she refused to pay, shop took her to small claims and she won. She won on the premise that the shop involved had, in the end, NOT produced an "original logo", but had added simple clipart to copy and charged for some 9 hours of searching the net for same. How did she know it was clipart?... because, being singularly unimpressed, she had brought the printout to me and asked if we could do any better. Not knowing the history, I asked her if she wanted something original or something like the clipart depicted on the printout. "CLIPART?!?!?... she sez. "Oh oh, sez I inwardly. Too late. The cat's out of a bag I hadn't realized was even there. She turned on her heel and disappeared. When she came back she had won her case without having to call on us as a witness. Blah blah blah........... anyway, she wanted us to do an original, which we did and for which she happily paid at about 1/3rd of the previous bill. SO..........................
If your abilites in your "Graphics" shop/studio cannot accommodate your customers needs in a timely and original fashion, what do you do? 1) Bluff & search the net 2) Scam someone else's artwork 3) Subcontract it without explanation 4) Subcontract it WITH an explanation 5) Refer said customer to a studio that CAN do an original piece of artwork 6) Take the appropriate courses and become that which you are currently not 7) Other
I felt that the original shop involved in this scam gave our local sign community an undeserved black eye. So.......... waddaya think?
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
YEAH!! An understanding soul!! BTW........... How did you know about our Ma Deuce??? Oh yeah. AW, of course. heh...................
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
One of the valuable traits that I bring to the table at my shop is being my own worse critic. It is a double edged sword, but I wouldn't want to change that.
"Graphics" means many things to many people & at least a few things just to me. Creating good layouts, or producing an asthetically pleasing end product combining as little as lettering, colors, & the size & shape of a substrate could qualify as graphics to me. Even a well executed arrangement of lettering & clip-art might qualify.
I have a certain level of ability with original illustrations. Being my own worst critic, I usually don't offer to do a lot of illustrations & have been known to send someone to look elsewhere for cartoon type drawing since I feel the least confident with something like that. Often I may sketch some fast ugly thing only to find the client already wants to buy it. I know I can do better, but now I know they are easy to please too, so I would be less hesitant to rely on my illustration abilities.
One of the strengths I feel that I have to offer is good ideas. I will often think of an idea to add a little artwork in a particular way that results in a composition much greater then the sum of it's parts. These ideas may fall out on the consultation table very quickly with little or no effort, but may be one of the most valuable componants in the service I provide. I will frequently use clipart as a starting place, but may only use half the clipart, & drastically alter the other half.
Even if I don't alter clipart, I feel that it is often used in an original & creative way & I have no qualms about charging for the graphic arts labor (& searching/researching)involved even if un-altered clipart is used, but that is the exception & would be for a promotion or an event, not for long-term use as a logo & I would never lead a client to believe the clipart was my original drawing.
The sign shop did a "design" without being paid AND Let her walk out the door with it. Clipart or not, she had something in her hand for free to show you.
The customer was wrong to accept whatever piece of crap from the signshop without paying. If it was worth a nickle, she should have paid a nickel or left it on the table.
Both of these parties are "losers" and get whatever they deserve.
Having said this, the premise to your question, and the choice of answers are moot.
Something to think about.
Have you ever used a signs shape more than once? Do you feel guilty by not creating a fresh "original" shape for each customer?
Can you discredit every Bob Bond, Bob Behounek, Tramp Warner, Mike Stevens and other Masters of our trade for making Ornamental designs and Fonts that Are used over and over instead of creating An "original" every time?
I think your customer was just a crybaby.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Good Topic, but the title to this thread is misleading. I thought it was going to be about the REASON you haven't tried to post a new topic.
so here's my 2 cents:
When we get a sketch delivered to us from another sign shop, which we did yesterday, I ask the customer if they paid for the design. I explain to them that there is a possibility of getting into some legal troubles, after all that is why it says COPYRIGHT, such and such sign shop, and that If I do continue with this job, I need to change it around enough so that I'm protected against the other shop's wrath.
Next item on the agenda is when a customer first comes into the shop and wants a special design, logo, or work up of some art, they get handed a paper to sign and a request for a deposit. That weeds out potential problems.
We work with a designer, who calls us to make signs she has designed. Since she only produces concepts and does no real productions, she has to be paid for her research and time. If that is all you did for a living, you sure wouldn't let a sketch out the door without beign paid...and she gets 1. paid in advance, or 2. there is an ongoing contract in place so that regular billing is accepted.
Another thing customers demand sometimes without thinking: " Hey, when you have time, see what it would take to letter up this project. If I like it, we'll problably get it done"
I've learned to reply to that with " Great! $150.00 should cover the initial design work so cut me a check and I'll get started. "
That is the friendliest way to teach them your time is valuable.
[ July 30, 2003, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6832 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We have "graphic design schools" that teach people they don't need to learn to be able to draw anything. We have sign companies owned and staffed by people who not only don't have any training in design skills and letter construction, but have been taught that such skills are archaic and unimportant. The net is awash in shareware and free clipart - most of it trash. We have a sign industry that continually devalues its products compared to other forms of visual communications, making it not worth the time and investment to develop creative skills. And we have a social, governmental and corporate culture that promotes corner-cutting, buck-passing and skid-greasing as acceptable practices in almost any endeavor, and defines integrity as not getting caught. In this context, passing clipart off as an original logo should surprise you? What did you expect?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Oh gimme a baREAK, Mike. Geez, man. Who needs a two-bit lecture. You and I and everyone worth a damn in the free world knows that Bauhaus already illustrated every concievable geometric graphics design/configuration possible. We were all born into a graphics world of extant designs. We're all doing nothing more that rearranging, distorting, reconfiguring, adding to and subtracting from everything Bauhaus gave us.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Pierre, Thats my point. I'm sorry it was over simplified in the example. If you have a clip art of a hot rod, There are only so many components to distort, and reconfigure as per your point on bauhaus.
A hot rod or any other object only has so many rearrangements. Tires , headlights, radiators will only allow so many configuations before they are all used up. At what point would you say it's originial?
Music only has a finite number of notes, beats and chords. Someday all of the music will have been written and then there will be no need for composers (sorry dave draper) .
When that happens (there are already music writers/composers suing each other for plagerism:he's so fine/my sweet lord) The world will come to an end.
It's the same thing for originial "designs"
Now I'll back out of the room before the shootin' starts.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by pierre: some 9 hours of searching the net
That's the part that bothers me. My Christ, that must have been SOME piece of clipart! I believe I could have drawn an original + gotten in at least 4 hours of fishing in that span of time.
It was actually listed on the bill like that - "Nine hours for internet clip art research"? The only way I could imagine justifying that is if they had told the customer "Look, we're not artist's, and we have no appropriate clipart in stock, so you will either have to provide the art, pay us to subcontract an outside designer for it, or pay us for whatever time it takes us to locate clipart from internet archives". Even then a price or timeframe estimate would have been in order.
But I'm a little confused Pierre...was the sign shop trying to pass the hotrod off as an original creation or not? If they did, then that is scammy. If they represented it as clipart, then they are only guilty of really poor communication in not notifying their client of the potential costs involved in seeking it out.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Apparently they didn't tell her but let her assume it was something they originated without actually saying so.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I'm really confused here so if I answer the wrong question, deal with it.
I think the other shop was wrong.
Sometimes when I get stumped (or even when I'm not) I flip through my old AMALs, Signcrafts, even my vector cd books. For thoughts & inspiration. I may pull up a vector art & start ripping it apart, get rid of stuff I don't want, draw in changes I want. So a little part of it, may become a little part of a design I do. I look at it as my starting point & go from there. But to pull up a clipart or vector art or whatever & do nothing with it, or do so little with it that it's still easily recognized as being from the original, then call that your design & charge for a design fee is highway robbery. Or fraud. If they had mailed it to her, it would be mail fraud.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yup. I agree, Kissy. The sign shop "pros" should have been in control from the get go. They misled her.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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