posted
Talk about the first one blowing up in my face!!
I had a customer come to me with a Harley tank and want some lightning put on it after he had it painted by a friend. I told him to have his friend clear coat the tank and then let me put the stuff on. He didn't like that. said the bike was his "Baby" and that he wanted it all cleared at the same time.
So I looked far and wide on the web to see what the complications were with 1 shot and clear coats. Read something about some of the clears having a conflic with 1 shot. So I informed the customer about the risk and he said ... "Ah don't worry about it" I hate those words!
So I shot the tank .. turned out nice he was happy untill today when he came back screeming because the clear "Orange pealed" over my graphic. And now It is my fault.
So now I'm asking .. was it my fault. What is the best way to avoid a screeming Harley Fan!
I don't mind the Harley Fan.. ... Just when he is screeming... namely at me!
If this guy repaints the tank and gets it cleared 1) am I safe to say that the graphics will adhear to the same type of clear that if had a problem with before?
2) And can I clear over it with 1 shot clear.. will that conflict with the auto clear?
Thanks for taking the time....
It isn't eazy trying to type on my cordless keyboard and run from this guy at the same time :|
-------------------- Shane Bennett Bennett Signs & Designs 17134 State Hwy. 80 Richland Center WI 53581 contact@bennettsigns.biz Posts: 41 | From: Richland Center WI | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Yep, yer fault on 2 issues. First believing the customer when he said don't worry about it. Second, not checking on this bull board for a topic thats been covered quite extensively.
Mainly, by adding some hardner to the One Shot, you would have had good adhesion of the clear coat without orange peel. Many have said One Shot's hardner will do it. Many others use the hardner from the clear coat.
posted
Shane..Use automotive paints for automotive projects (That would include bike tanks)?
Use window splash products for window splash projects?
Use sign paints for signs?
Use the correct paints for the appropriate job and don't let the customer tell ya "Don't worry"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Shane I really don't know from reading this what exactly the prob is/what happened? #1 Orange Peel is a result of how the clear was sprayed on and has zero to do with what its sprayed over, depsite what some might want to tell you......now if the graphic you put down with the one shot wrinkled underneath the clear its a totally different matter. If the clear is orange peeled in appearance and the graphic and stripes are ok give him back the tank and tell him to bring it to someone who knows how to spray or how to polish...if the clear looks ok and the graphics are wrinkled it happened b/c the solvents etc in the clear are entirely too strong for the oneshot and ate down into it. Having said that,alot of people are going to tell you how harmless it is to clear over one shot and they also view it as some type of badge of honor that they 'cheat the curve' and get away with it "all the time".....Most of the time if you watch someone who clears over oneshot alot and doesnt have a prob,if you ask them to break it down for you into 5 steps on what they do,if you really watch them they're doing 7-8 and just don't realize it...and you may or may not do those other 2-3 steps,then you have problems. You can add the catalyst to the 1shot and most of the time it *should* help,key word being should...adding the same catalyst you use in the clear isn't necessary and does absolutely nothing to help......the paint doesn't magically know you used the same catalyst,only you do.....and yes you will repeatedly hear that very line of BS in many magazine articles and videos. Just because it's also catalyzed doesn't necessarily mean you have 2 compatible products. Also,don't use oneshot clear on a tank,it's in no way the same thing as using catalyzed clear and is going to remain soft far too long b4 it fully cures to be durable....using it on a sign that sits in one place is a whole lot dofferent than putting it on a tank thats gonna get hit with all kinda road debris at 50-60mph,nor is it going to have an acceptable level of chemical resistance b/c like it or not eventually gas will spill on the tank and hes gonna be plenty ****ed if it wrinkles up. More than once around here and on other boards you can see people who should know better using oneshot as a base then clearing tanks and helmets with frog juice and UV clear...and honestly thats something you don't want to do,thats not what either product was designed for.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I bet it lifted and crazed the clearcoat which isn't really orange peel to those in the know, but never the less you are at fault. The reason being you must know what materials to use before taking on any job. I personally don't gives a ratsass if 1-Shot can be clearcoated or not, its simply not the paint to use without years of experience as others have here. For a show finish or when working with motorcycle people, HoK is the only paint to use, if a clearcoat is to be used.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
i 4th the use of automotive paint for theose projects!!!! if youre gona clear coat, put down a paint that wont react to the clear coat. one shot is STD ENAMEL!!!! any automotive paint today IS NOT COMPATABLE. only time i ever cleared over one shot....if had wrinkle problems...unless...the one shot was at least a month old.....yea it takes one shot that long to dry!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Imagine this... The same guy walks into a car dealership, buys a car and tells the dealer he is going to change the gears. Just as in your case, he would be advised not to risk it because it could do damage. He says "Don't worry about it" and immediately has a "friend" change the rear end gears. From that point on, the whole drivetrain warranty is void because it has been altered from original. If he chews up the motor, and barks at the dealer for the gears doing it, he's not gonna get a new engine.
He's gonna get sent packing.
The same applies here. "Baby" or not, he took the risk, not you. Yeah, you could have done more research on clearcoats, One Shot, Frog juice, etc., but this guy had a plan before you ever painted it. Despite your warnings, he had it cleared by his "friend", who I'm assuming is a body shop worker (and who may or may not be getting barked at too).
Now his "baby" needs a face lift. Just because he's in love with the thing doesn't justify his "barking". He blew you off when he said "Don't wory about it" and at that point, in my book, voided any warranty.
My 2 cents Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Ray, tell that to some 250 pound biker with a wrench in his hand.
Do you always think that our many customers are misinformed or have taken the assumption that those who paint should at least have the knowledge and expertise in what materials could be used? Are customers always at fault because they want it one way and the sign painter hasn't a clue how its done problem free? Shouldn't the sign painter be aware of all that is available in materials before he takes on a job? Maybe the customer is disgrunted because he assumed the sign painter was using paint, and since he had seen artwork under clear at shows, took it for granted because in the customers line of work selling bike parts hasn't anything to do with paint. Maybe its time for sign pinters to experiment on their own, and possibly find supplements which work in automotive type work. If you want to do vehicle and bike work, the sign painter is going to have to learn from the vehicle artist first. In all the years I've done vehicles, I have found that most vehicle artists have gotten into signage after doing vehicles, but most sign painters have gotten into trouble when doing vehicles
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
A freind of mine had a similar experience. He did some artwork on a part, told the customer to have the clearcoat guy LIGHTLY mist a few "dry" coats on first, then follow with the wetter coats.
I guess the spray guy loaded a very wet coat on from the start, with bad reults. It seems very difficult to get people to take details seriously. "Oh you sissies worry too much" is the attitude I encounter. But that attention to detail is what keeps us employed, however, I digress.
I'm getting interested in HOK colors. They also have a line of kandy colors as shown in the latest issue of Autographics magazine. Great stuff! You gotta see it.
Joey, thanks for the web site, I put the icon on my desktop, since I'll probably be going there often.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
A freind of mine had a similar experience. He did some artwork on a part, told the customer to have the clearcoat guy LIGHTLY mist a few "dry" coats on first, then follow with the wetter coats.
I guess the spray guy loaded a very wet coat on from the start, with bad reults. It seems very difficult to get people to take details seriously. "Oh you sissies worry too much" is the attitude I encounter. But that attention to detail is what keeps us employed, however, I digress.
I'm getting interested in HOK colors. They also have a line of kandy colors as shown in the latest issue of Autographics magazine. Great stuff! You gotta see it.
Joey, thanks for the web site, I put the icon on my desktop, since I'll probably be going there often.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Shane, bad as I hate to say it, you are at fault here. Although 1shot is a wonderful signmans tool, it doesnt do very well when used on a job where automotive enamels should have been. Ask me how I know. It doesnt matter what your customer said to you, it is your job to make sure the materials you are using will do the job. I know this from experience. Just recently I did a bike job that I was proud of, and almost ruined the whole thing with a clear that shouldnt have been used. It was re-cleared by an automotive painter and now looks great, but it scared me. From now on, any jobs I do will be in HOK or other automotive paints. Listen to the posts above, they are based on years of experience, especially Joey. Read his other post on this same subject. Sometimes Joey aint eloquent with his words, but he knows what he's talking about. Take this as a step of knowledge, and I hope you get it worked out.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
I would add to what John said, that if you decide to pursue more automotive work, get more control over what clear is used and who/how it will be applied, or do the clear yourself. A close reltionship with a paint shop where both of you know exactly what works dependable every time is in order.
I had my share of successes and failures in that department, and I know the heartache you're going through. You don't need it. Nobody does. Unless you can be 100% certain of clearcoat success, its better to decline the job. I think that must include every instance where another party you don't know is doing the clear. Hey, when it gets finally corrected, share a picture, ok? Good luck.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I started out doing vehicles first, mostly bikes and race cars, and have done the experiments with One Shot and automotive clears, on my own, and with several auto body shops in the area. It has been invaluable over the years. Signs came later. As far as whether I "ALWAYS" think customers are misinformed or make assumptions....no. If they were all well informed, they would all be in business with us, but "SOME" do need more information. I always take the time to let them know what will and will not work. We both have experience with the chemistries involved on vehicle work, something Shane is just getting started on. I know I made my disasters when I started, but as Joe Rees pointed out, if you are going to persue more vehicle work, learn what works. I still am probably always will be. It changes all the time.
Shane, you asked...
quote: What is the best way to avoid a screeming Harley Fan!
Easy. Don't work on their bikes until you are ready to. With good knowledge and experience, that won't be an issue in the future
As far as the 250 lb. biker goes, I'm also a 6' 0", 225 lb. bouncer at a bar on the weekends and deal with them the same way in my shop. Should anyone come looking for a fight or to threaten me with a "wrench", I'll just tell them to come back when they want to discuss something, not try to intimidate me. Any one who thinks violence in my shop is gonna get them somewhere is gonna change their attutude quick or count their blessing if I ONLY call a cop. It is my home, my shop and I will not waste my time with someone who thinks they can control it, or me, with intimidation.
No one should be threatened or physically hurt. At work, at home, anywhere! Especially over something like a mistake on a motorcycle. Human dignity is worth a hell of a lot more than a paint job.
Nuff said! Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
bottom line is...."if you dont know what your doing....say you cant do it!" i see to many here who have no concept of what is involved in this type of work. to do bike, auto graphics...you need to understand the world of automitve paint. as gavin can tell from dealin with body shops, most of them dont know what they are doing. i also know this from my years as a outside sales for NAPA parts stores. i was also the paint seller!!! i was 23 when i walked into a body shop in maine. i was eagar, and wanted to make a sale. this old tasiturn mainer let me run of at the mouth about the paint i was tryin to sell. after a long silence...he says "son how long you been doing body/fender work?" and me being honest said never did!!! he tells me real nice that there is the door....and when you learn something about this work, then stop back in...untill then DONT COME BACK!!!!! i listened to him. i went back to where i worked, the guy that owned the parts store also had a const. co. and some ratty trucks......he let me use the shop and equipment in the evenings, to patch and paint his trucks!!!!! now untill you get into the nitty gritty of this work, you have no idea of the knowledge needed to make a piece of crap truck look new again!!!! it is an art all to itself. just learing all of the primers/sealers, reducers/thinners, slow down additives/speed up additives, paint properties/behavior/reaction to humidity/temp, when to use 40 grit or 600 grit sandpaper, how long to wait between coats/how not to get orange peel....etc etc......and at best after a year of this....you will realize how much you still need to learn. oh ...i did go back to that body shop...after i was better informed(8 months of evening body work)and the guy was impressed with the knowledge i gained in that short of time...but i also told him...how much more i needed to learn......he was one of my best customers!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Except for their Gold, I haven't used 1 Shot in years. Their reds react badly with Pelucid for some reason....bleeding etc. For bike tanks and similar things we airbrush with automotive eurethanes or AutoAir paints and clear them with Pelucid. Goodbye, tank. Never comes back again.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Armed with all this info I now have the know-how on the facts that I can say "NO" I can't do that,...........YET! :}
But tell me,does someone have a link where a guy could get some automotive paint to use to do this kind of work. I Would realy like to get into this more. And besides this wonderful web page is there anywhere else I can go to get info on doing this kind of work.. I don't have a body shop that I know that could help. And there aren't any people around here that do this kind of work that I know of.
Again I would like to say thanks for the advice.. as was once said
"I would rather have a friend correct me, than have my enemy commpliment me as I go the wrong way!"
And just to show you I am taking it to heart I'm buying 4 gas tanks to "Play" with!
-------------------- Shane Bennett Bennett Signs & Designs 17134 State Hwy. 80 Richland Center WI 53581 contact@bennettsigns.biz Posts: 41 | From: Richland Center WI | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Yep...Either a NAPA store or a Car Quest store. Both will be able to mix you up a couple of colours to play with..in a variety of types of paint.
BUT..be prepared to pay big bux for what you will think are small amounts. Ask them first what all you will need to do a job with Acrylic Enamel, then again with Basecoat/clearcoat, then again with urethanes. Quality paints are not cheap.
Oh..and don't forget to ask them about the protective gear you will need to buy to use these various products and still expect to live a full and healthy life!
[ July 26, 2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Shane the easiest way to remember this whole conversation is this...1shot is designed to be a topcoat,automotive grade clears today are designed to "bite into" or crosslink with whats underneath them and form one integral unit,thats why it will eat up the one shot. Like the others have told you,any automotive paint jobber can help you out,it's more impt to learn how/why the products work than to get locked into believeing one certain paint system/brand is the only one capable of doing what you want just because some so called hotshot is pimping it in a magazine or video...if you can use one,with very few minor adjustments you can use them all.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Like Pierre...I enjoy AutoAir products.. It is amazing the things you can use if for!
And never worry about the Auto Clear that is going to Topcoat it.
The only time I have had any problems was with a Body shop clear that fish-eyed....... I cleaned and tack rag it before going there.... Full paper wrapping. No tape or glue contact.
So someone in the shop handled it with DIRTY FINGERS or atmosphere pollution.
It was brought back and wet sanded again and recleared.
Bikes are the owners personal pride next to the spouse/family, they love as much!
My way of thinking is.......
Dirt Bikes / Quad Runners... One-Shot no clear or vinyl depending on their budget. (Going to be banged Up anyway.)
Race bikes... Vinyls as most them are decals anyway. (Going to kick up dirt and stones or fall over a couple of times.)
Vintage and Soft Rider Pieces... Auto paints only. (Going to polish it every day Summer and Winter)
Helmets apply the same way under each area.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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Coast Airbrush has lots of the paints in small quantities, setup in kits so you get at least a few useful colors. Here's the link, click on the "Automotive" section under "Paint"
posted
Like a lot of folks have already mentioned. clearcoating with auto urethanes is another matter altogether. Gavin mentioned the "five steps" turning into seven. He's right , I started clearcoating over One Shot over twenty years ago. There were no other alternatives at that time. I know what works, what doesn't and what to avoid. I've seen a lot of stuff written in articles in magazines that are pure wives tales. The list of do's and don'ts requires writing a damn book but it basically comes down to having the same base under the OS as you are clearing with and MIST three DRY coats on with 15 minutes between, then "sneak up" on a gloss. I can't stress the MIST part enough. It's almost all in the application of the clear. HOK striping urethanes are a safer bet to clear over, however if you "bust" a heavy coat of clear over them they will sag or bleed. Any screwup with this sort of thing ( clearcoating ) is a nightmare to fix. Unfortunately, that's all part of the learning process.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Hey George, next time you clearcoat HoK striping paints try using the catalyst in with the paint as the artwork is applied. This will prevent the sag you speak of. I realize that HoK says the cat isn't necessary when using a clearcoat but it doesn't say not too. I always use the cat whether or not a clearcoat is applied and have never seen a bleed thru or say under any circumstances. I guess its all who you believe and how much that person uses that program.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I'm with Joey on this one...HOK striping urethanes and their other products are about the BEST for any kind of Harley/Street Rod/anything automotive work (cept' maybe lettering(??). I've painted tons of bikes and helmets with multiple clearcoats and as long as you don't get stupid with that first coat of clear, you won't have problems.
As far as the orange peel, if it is indeed orange peel, that's the "body shop's" problem. Almost everytime I spray a final clearcoat on a helmet/bike/whatever, I get a touch of orange peel. In fact, I only know a handful of painters who don't!!! with urethanes anyway...The trick is to sand and buff the peel away to get that super-slick show finish.
If it's the "crackled" look, yep, it's your baby. Whether he said "go ahead" or not, it's still your reputation on the line, so it's better YOU fix it. The second bike I ever painted got the "crackled" effect (yea, it was one-shot, too). I ended up restriping the bike a month later once it got back from Sturgis.
The tricks to making One-Shot are shady at best. Even with a catalyst, you've got to baby it with thin coats of clear when you start. Why bother? Buy the HOK and quit worrying. It stripes and brushes great and if thinned correctly, airbrushes pretty good.
One more note: most of the Harley guys are alot of talk!!! In all my dealings, I've never had but one or two get crazy. One didn't have the money and the other, who said I didn't do it right, I told him, I'd fix it, but he would have to pay his "body shop" to strip it and refinish it.
posted
Sorry to here about your problem, Shane. Joey Madden and I are on the same page. Use HOK lettering and striping paint for this work as it can be cleared over with today's urethane clears. If you use just any automotive urethane paint you may not be able to letter or sripe with it and get it to cover or flow out like the HOK lettering and striping paint; however the non-lettering/striping paint can be airbrushed or sprayed using a mask so that you can use metal flake etc, but for filling in between tape, outline and striping like you would use 1 Shot for, use the HOK. I get my supply of this paint from the people who deliver supplies to the body shops in our area. They make the rounds every day. Check these folks out. I don't know why, but the paint is not available thru sign suppliers. After I introduced this paint to Dave the Letterman who was running N. Glantz's Milwaukee branch, he tried to get HOK to sell the paint thru Glantz and they refused. In any event, Sid Moses in Calif. and others will get you the paint if worse comes to worse.
I have learned how to use HOK lettering and stripping paint and I've been using it for several years on all my semi striping. I use it to put fades and beveled edges and even pictoral work on vinyl. You can not get it off vinyl. It's especially made for motorcycles. You do your thing on a tank and give it back to the body shop to clear and your worries are over. The body shop will shoot several coats of clear over it and sand the clear and then buff it and it will be as smooth as a baby's butt. You won't be able to feel any ridges from your handy work. I think that's what you customer had in mind. Also the automotive clears are different that other clears, because they're tougher and can take gas spillage which is common on motorcycle tanks.
There is a learning curve with using HOK lettering and striping paint, but there seems to be folks like myself and Joey Madden who are using it religiously who can help you out. There are too many benefits from this product to ignore it. Wait till you work your way down the bottom of a 4 oz. can of this paint and realize it didn't skin over once. Wait till you pull a pinstripe with one of their metallic golds and find out you just pulled a stripe 1 yard long. Paint on vinyl is just a plus. You can wipe a goof up within and hour with ordinary rubbing alcohol. The list goes on. I've worked with it enough now and with help from urethane retarders I can letter a 4x8 with it. Give it a try and any guy with a show bike or car who wants the enth degree in lettering, striping or graphics and wants them preserved under the deep shine of several coats of clear will now be a potential customer. Or catalyze this paint on semis and all those truckers who have given up on striping their rigs because 1 Shot pressure washes off or fades in 2 years will once again want their trucks striped. Good Luck -- Bill
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2111 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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