posted
I'm either gonna start a good discussion or a flamefest with this, but it's worth risking either.
On a post I just read, someone apologized for using vinyl.
I just spent an hour trying to figure out how such a statement would be drawn from someone, without provocation, about using a tool of our trade.
When did this start and how long before it ends?
I use paint, vinyl, poly brushes, airbrushes, signfoam, MDO, toothbrushes, laquer thinner, mineral spirits and dozens of other tools of the trade. Should I apologized for not using gold leaf? or HDU? Smalts? Engraveing tools? A CNC? Who of you who use these tools want me too?
Think of that before you slam the next vinyl user. References to "quickie sticky shops" should be reserved to those shops who have come and gone by undercutting themselves into bankruptcy and hurt the local businesses with poor product in the interest of a quick buck, not to those starting out and who may be here trying to better themselves and what they do.
I doubt the "original" Letterheads threw jabs at the guy using different brushes. I sure as hell hope no one felt like apologizing for the color of their toolbox!
Ok, That's my rant.
Comments are welcome on this topic.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hmmmmmmmm... spoken like a true vinyl jockey... LOL!
Seriously, this debate is as old as vinyl. Let's be honest here... How many of the people would not be here if they had to be able to hand letter?
How many no-talent hacks can you think of? Granted, we shouldn't characterize all vinyl users as "quicky sticky" but it is an easy term to throw out there.
Hey, we all need our punk cards, you know?
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
As a reformed vinyl junkie (just back from Paint the Prairie) i understand more the benefits of paint.. but have made my living for the past 14 years using vinyl.. theres room for both, but i also do see where paint is more rewarding to do....
I like multi-media!
-------------------- Del Badry philmdesign Sylvan Lake, Alberta Posts: 636 | From: Sylvan Lake, Alberta | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I first showed up, I remember having a little resentment upon hearing the occassional condescending remarks made here by paint folks about vinyl shops etc. I threw my defensive remarks in the ring about design being key, & about how making lots of money off my design ability never left me thinking gee, if only I could hand letter.
But, that said, I can also say that after 2 years or so hanging around here seein' that dissin' vinyl shops may occur, but is not a common practice, I think overall the pure passion for traditional craftsmanship techniques shows itself as the real motive for the ocassional paint prejudice.
If there was nothing but back-slappin' attaboys for vinyl work around here, I doubt I would have been inspired to begin researching & practicing some traditional techniques myself. I have bought the "Mastering Layout" book as a result of this site, The Gold Leaf techniques book, I got Georges hand lettering video, did some gilding on my panel swap panel & did some carving & dimensional gilding for the FKAB project. I bought a pinstriping brush in anticipation of trying that out soon too.
So, my point, I guess, is that outright disrespect for any choosen signmaking approach would be pointless, but the fact that new & old visitors to this site perceive Letterville as a place that holds traditional craftsmenship in higher esteem than it bestows upon just anyone with a plotter is a good thing.
posted
Ray, perhaps my definition of the "quicky sticky" varies from other's definition. Quicky sticky doesn't refer to everyone who just uses vinyl.
To me a quicky sticky is a person who * undercuts everyone * has no idea about a decent layout * doesn't understand that signs are useless if they can't be read * can't do nuttin unless they have the font or vector art they bought on a cd * has no interest in signwork other than getting the $$$ * has no desire to improve their skills or strive to do the best job they can
Ray, just by being here you have proven you are not a quicky sticky.
Just yesteray I was thinking the same thing about saws and such, I hand cut out a extremely complicated shape out of MDO in a bout 25 minutes using my awesome Bosch barrel body jig saw and these T101AO blades and WOW what a clean and perfect cut.
Cant imagine using a coping saw or some other hand saw to do that. Guess I better not join the sawheads site, or I'd be called a quickie cutter.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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We are a vinyl shop, but have the capability of paint, and use in on a semi-regular basis. I agree w/Chris. While we are largly vinyl shop, we are always improving what we do. Our design is strong and we often win jobs by design, not by price. As far as paint goes,I have never been a fan, I do however see the niche it fills. I have replaced many painted signs w/well designed vinyl. I have also seen many talented sign painters in my day, and have envied their obvious natural talent.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3487 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Good post and while I'm here, does anyone have some extra vinyl I could use on the sides on my shop and home as painting every 15 years is getting old fast.
Have a nice day !
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
The Letterheads were originally formed to preserve and share the knowledge of "traditional" techniques. Around '83 vinyl appeared. (Later-on this site appeared too.)
To me the Letterhead ideal is still (essentually) about the traditional aspects of the trade. However, many who started in the business after the hand lettering side of it was in decline use ONLY vinyl for all of their work. It IS a money maker, so why not?
Stick on letters are cheap, easy to make and versitile. But paint is STILL often the best material for a job. The key is to be well versed at both, and thus know what to use and when.
posted
The purpose of Letterheads is to keep the "craft" alive. We must all admit that signs have gone to crap since vinyl & plotters got so affordable.
About 3 years ago I decided that I would add to the demise of the craft and bought the equipment and built a shop onto my house. I had never seen the inside of a sign shop! I taught myself how to use it and started cranking out signs. I thought they looked pretty good compared to some I have seen in the area. The bubbles added texture! haha I look back now and they stunk!
I lucked up and found this site before I officially opened. If I had been lambasted instead of encouraged, I would still be sticking vinyl onto sign blanks. Because of all the "real" Letterheads here I have learned to make real signs.
I probably would never have had the courage to try some of the things I have accomplished without the guidance I have received here and at live meets.
Thanks to Letterville I now cut out shapes, learned the basics of design(and am improving daily), paint, smalts, gold leaf, trying to stripe, failing greatly at hand lettering (but have learned to cheat by pouncing or masking). Heck I even do a little simple carving of HDU to add to signs. That's just a few of the things I have learned here.
I am just one who has aquired a desire to make real signs here. Yes, there are those who will always be satisfied to stick red helvetica on pre-made sign blanks. But, when a new person comes aboard how do we know whether or not we are "killing" the craft by insulting them and causing them to leave? They could be sincere.
At my age, and just learning, I probably will never make signs that are as beautiful as some here, but I have come a long way. I am very grateful for and proud of the Letterhead movement and Letterville thanks to the generous souls here. (I also have learned from the Sign Snobs!)
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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The way a lot of people here bash on vinyl it's no wonder that someone new to the board mistook it that *anyone* who uses vinyl is an a*hole.
It's not always apparent that the complaints are targeting only people that have no talent or are undercutting everyone else, and the no talent/undercutter description isn't limited to vinyl users either.
There are plenty of talentless, undercutting paint users (or carvers, etc) who have no intentions of improving themselves and are only in it for the money.. why not target them too? "Lamey painty".. hehe.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Kissy, you "hit the nail right on the head" with your definition of a "quickie Stickie"
Although at least 75% my business is paint, vinyl is an important tool in my box. I use a lot of vinyl mask for paint and ink too. Sure beats the hell outa handlettering 1" helvetica!
I try for a blend to suit price and production time. Win for me and the customer.
posted
Let's look at this from another angle. I'm convinced the most simple basic need is to feel we are special. Sports give some that feeling, for others it's money or some other form of accomplishment.
For many of us old timers, it was our ability to handletter. It took time and perseverance to become an accomplished signpainter or pinstriper. We made our living out of a signkit filled with basic layout tools, including paint and brushes. We were magicians!
People would marvel and make a fuss over us as we went about our work. We could do something very few could. It made us feel very fullfilled and special.
Not all signpainters were Letterheads. There were plenty of terrible brush artists that were only involved for the dollar. Many oldtimers painted the same boring layouts for 40 years or more. The reason they survive and often even florish has not changed. The real truth is that the general public has no knowledge or appreciation of good sign and/or graphic design. That's a subject that desrves it's own post.
Back to the vinyl issue. Imagine yourself as a decent signpainter. Since only a few could do it, there was lots of work, and lots of creativity as individuals strived to establish their own special style. It was great to be a signpainter.
Then came the 80's and the introduction of computerized signmaking. It wasn't lomg before everyone had the ability to cut out perfect letters and create perfect, ugly signs. The really frustrating thing was that nobody but accomplished sign painters seemed to recoginize ugliness. All of a sudden we wern't so special anymore. As far as the general public was concerned, these machines could do anything we could faster and cheaper. I'm sure accomplished musicians share our feelings as they see today's computerized musicians making all the big bucks and recognition.
So there you have it. That's how I see it anyway. It's not the computers or the vinyl. There is a feeling of loss and yes, even resentment, to see an era and occupation that once made many of us feel very special disappear. Thank God we have Letterhead and PinHead Meets. For many of us, this is the only remaining venues where we can network with others that truly remember and appreciate our past.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
I like Steve's reply but the question comes to my mind... If the true "Letterheads" (hand letterers, stripers, etc.) feel so left out and unappreciated, why not change with the times and become the best Vinyl/Paint/Everything Guru? there are those today that mostly deal with vinyl and are looked at as "Masters of Signmaking" by the general public. Their layouts are beautiful, application is perfect , and the signs last a long time. A lot of folks today don't have any clue that "Signs used ta be painted!?" they see vinyl as the only way to go due to its versatility & reliability (high perf. only).
It IS possible to be a keeper of the trade and use Vinyl & Paint.
It IS possible to be a keeper of the trade using only Vinyl or Paint.
I of course am bi.
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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What boggles my mind is the fact that almost every single layout that gets posted on this site is made from a computer. I really don't give a hoot how signs actually get constructed, but the basic layouts seem to come from computers based on the majority that get posted. Even from those who claim to be hand letterers. Paint it on, stick it on, rub it on, spray it on, use crayons for all I care. The end product is what counts, not how it was made.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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"Want a quikie stickie!??......... See Liz or Rosemary. Want something you'll be keeping for your kids when they take over your store?.... See Latigo."
Pooh and Liz have no problem with the term. Fast, clean, inexpensive vinyl film signs. Multi-color, shadow dropped, arced, whatever in all the blazing colors of the film industry. See Pooh or Liz.
Now then......... Step into our back room to see the painted, airbrushed, carved and multimedium signs. Works of art. Stick-yer-chest-out honest to gosh hand-crafted signs.
So........ Do the front end and the back room collide? Nope. Its all a matter of economics and taste. We even feature filmwork on our website, BUT..but.... the kids are capable of doing both ends of the spectrum and introduce customers to both. My crew is crosstrained in all of it, and..........SO SHOULD YOU BE!! Taste and economics.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think of Michaelangelo everytime this subject comes up, and Leonardo, maybe even Rembrant, Those guys, created art from weed juice, bug juice mud, pigments they made themselves, etc. But out of their hearts and minds came images we rever today. I always say if any of them were here transplanted into this time and age, they would be creating with computers, routers, chisels and anything else they could invent or discover. I am in this business to make a living, which so far I have done fairly well. But if making a living were the only reason, I would have stayed in the grocery business where I made a lot more money. My Dad started out mixing soot and varnish and making signs with it. He was able to help me buy my first plotter. We used it to cut masks for paint for 3 years before we found out the vinyl was actually lasting longer than the paint. We used to handpaint boats, and just use the vinyl to put on the tx no's or the port name, we found the paint faded, the varnish cracked, but the vinyl survived. So what do we use for boats today? Vinyl, and most customers won't have paint. I joined letterheads because they were there and provided more knowledge, knowledge I needed to keep up with coming trends, what ever they may be. To me, you don't have to worry about quikie stickies, they are not intrested enough to persue the knowledge needed to continually survive, I have seen them come and go by the dozens, none of those people are ever here. Or if they are it isn't for long. all the folks I have met here are genuinely intrested sign people. and whether you use vinyl, sawdust or bird crap to create things you take an intrest in the art of it as well as the money. Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Anyone who has been around for about two years knows I was a loud mouth PAINT FOR PASSION A-HOLE. I think I caused many a fight here in letterville. I do plenty of vinyl work and plenty of paint. About 50/50. It all has it's place. It is layout that is real important. A well designed sign will look good whether it is in vinyl or paint. Some different tecniques can be used with paint to spice a sign up but vinyl is definetly part of this business and will be for the rest of time. If I can learn to deal with that then we all should. Bet you never thought you would hear me talk this way. I'm getting older and wiser....hehehehehhe
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:What boggles my mind is the fact that almost every single layout that gets posted on this site is made from a computer.
Not so fast Bruce. While it's true that there are "auto layout" features built into many of today's sign programs, every design I have ever done is conceived in my brain, refined in a rough sketch on paper, and only then do I use the computer to do the finished design. If you think about it, I'm sure you do the same.
The designs that we see in our brains come from years of trial and error (experience), reading books and magazines, hanging out with those who are doing what we strive to do, and a burning desire to make each design better. Letterheads are always thinking about stuff like kerning, appropriate letter style and weight, readability and all the other design necessities that can only be learned through experience. Without an educated human brain, a compuer can only produce perfect, ugly signs.
One does not have to look far these days to see perfect, ugly signs. Just this week, I saw a half million dollar boat done in Brush Script. All caps no less. Yellow letters on white seem to be a popular color scheme these days, but red on black is comman too. Most of the menu type signs I see look more like ransom notes. Of course they all have perfect letters, usually too small to be read in the real World.
What always amazes me is that the buyer cannot see what I am seeing. They pay good money for signage that all too often is ineffective at best and often leaves the reader saying "Yuk" on a subconscious level. The frustrating thing is many, including many of my own relatives, haven't got a clue, nor even care about the things that I am talking about here. I have to get around Letterheads on a regular basis just to convince myself I am not going nuts.
The sad part of all this is reflected in the first impression one gets on walking or driving down our main streets. The public may not know why, but it is the signs in places like Banff and Stowe that make us feel we are in someplace special. Imagine a Disneyland where all the signs were regtangular with black Helvetica on white?
That's what a great sign should do! It's job is to inform and generate a feeling, even if only at the subconscious level. If you have a clue what I am talking about, it dosen't really matter if you use vinyl or paint. You are not a vinyl or paint jockey! You are on your way to becoming a Letterhead.
[ July 16, 2003, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Yeah. Maybe. I firmly believe that design in art as with sound studio mixing is a crock. You really belive that the average Joe/Jane knows the real difference? Ha! Don't kid yourselves. The only ones who truly recognize good art from mediocher art is US! We'uns! In the recording studio the only ones who can tell a great mix from a good mix is we engineers. Don't beat yourself on the head thinking that your superior layout techniques will make you more money than your mediochre competition. There are exceptions, but the mainstream won't know or care about your superior layout abilities if the $ sign is involved.
Don't take life or your talents too seriously. Unless you're a shining exception, nobody else will either.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:"the general public has no knowledge or appreciation of good sign and/or graphic design. That's a subject that deserves it's own post"
I'd like to see it. I was thinking that maybe we could employ a "Sign Arts" emblem, or something of the sort, similar to the way automotive repair places have the ASE (sp?) certification.
I know the ASE is probably an instruction course, and that the emblem would get railroaded, but just a thought.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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There are plenty here whose work and shops are based on quality, and people seeking that out.
Also a persons work speaks for itself, the only use for an emblem would be in conjunction with some other awareness campaign.
Let's see, there's good houskeeping seal of approval, U.L. listing, and others I'm sure. But what would the test involve? Lettering and layout abilities, or overall shop performance. A.P.C. watch out.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by pierre: Yeah. Maybe. I firmly believe that design in art as with sound studio mixing is a crock. You really belive that the average Joe/Jane knows the real difference? Ha! Don't kid yourselves. The only ones who truly recognize good art from mediocher art is US! ~ the mainstream won't know or care about your superior layout abilities if the $ sign is involved.
Pierre, I think I get your point, but if I really believed the above was an absolute it would sure take the zest out of this occupation for me. I must not deal with the "mainstream" that often, or I've got myself well deluded.
This thread has lots of different angles to it; we've got discussions going about the origins and intentions of Letterheads, whether vinyl is a viable medium, if we alienate newcomers, if being able to hand letter really makes one superior, and whether people appreciate or will pay for creative design/craftsmanship, to mention a few. I sense there's a larger underlying concept that's tying all these angles together, but I'm not sure what it is yet. I think maybe we're evolving and some new definitions of 'our' collective purpose are trying to emerge.
What I have to add at this point is that back in 1984 when this vinyl stuff was pretty new, I was agonizing over whether to spring for one of those newfangled 4B thinggies. At the Nashville meet that year, one of my hero's in the movement (fella by the name of Jackson), deigned to speak to me personally about it. "How do I justify that big of a purchase?" I asked him. (remember they were like $10,000 back then...). "Does your shop do any kind of volume" he asked me. I told him yes. "Then just get one, it'll pay for itself". So I did and he was right, and my point in telling the story is that from the very beginning, plotters were seen as a great asset by the even the highest mucky-mucks, and embraced from the start. No stigma attached. If that has changed, it is from misuse, not because they were ever a bad idea. Any stigma should be on the misuse, not on the machinery.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
James touches on a really interesting point.
How many of us go to ASE Certified mechanics? Call licensed electricians or plumbers?
I have been toying with the idea of "Registered Letterhead" on my truck. I've thought that it would get people asking questions and give me the opportunity to inform them more about the Letterhead movement, what it is truly about and maybe, with Steve's blessing, publicising Letterville.com a bit to boot. Of course, Steve, I had intended to talk to you about this at FKAB, but since the question has arisen here, other input could be helpful as well. There's little doubt of the amount of creativity among this fine group of people and I think some of the ideas would be fun to mull over.
Steve?......
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I'm just a Letterhead like you Ray. We run Letterville, a channel that is devoted to something known as The Letterhead Movement. Since Letterheads is a non organization without any formal leadership, anything we say concerning Letterheads is just another opinion.
Over a period of years, a sign designer has a powerful impact on the appearence of their community. In my own humble opinion, a person with this sort of impact should have some sort of qualification process to go through to prove they are competent. Isn't the graphic quality of our towns at least as important as building codes that require 16" centres?
Monte Jumper, amoung others, once talked about a certification process they had to go through in their town and/or State. This would be the perfect time and place to learn more about that process. I'm just speculating, but I don't feel the majority of Letterheads would want the Movement involved in this area.
[ July 17, 2003, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Steve, Here in New Hampshire there is a New Hapmshire Sign Asscociation. Anyone with a sign business can become a member. That is the only qualification that I know of. They have dues of $75/year, monthly newsletters, and an annual meeting. Althought I've been doing this for years, I have never become a member. I am looking into it more.
I agree that the letterhead movement is informal and that to formalized it might be detrimental.
My goal was not to formalize it, per say, but to present it as a means of instilling interest in customers and hopefully making it easier for those involved to address to the customers the letterhead movement.
Just a way of better informing customers who show a curiosity about a little something on my truck. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hi guys! I won't be able to do this too often cuz it's sorta expensive. I'm on the studio tollfree line to the house internet connection. Dad got me a laptop but there's no phone line at Grandma's house so I have to come here to the Post Amp to use a phone connection. The lady who runs it is a friend of my Grandma's. Cool no? I get to call home every day to talk to Mom and Dad, but I'll only get to use the laptop once in a while till I get to Bern. I should have a phone connection there without having to go to the house line. It really is expensive to do it this way. I was reading Dad's comments here and all I can say is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH! Theres are all kinds of people who come to us just cuz of the kind of work we do. LOTS of them know the difference. He's right about the recording studio schtuff, but not the graphics studio. Our customers are mostly architects and all of them stay with is cuz we pay attention to things and they get the best we can do for them and their customers. They DO appreciate it. If they didn't then Lat and I wouldn't try so hard with every job. Oops! I forgot Liz, but she's still training. I think Dad's just cranky cuz Mom told me he's disappointed about the Indian motorcycle people don't make as good a bike as they did when he had one about a hundred years ago. Anyway, don't listen to him. He's proud of us and the work that come's from the studio. I know he is. I'll post when I can, but it won't be often for now. Bye guys! I love you!!
Posts: 764 | Registered: Jan 2001
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HI ROSEMARY!!! That was like a breath of fresh air!!Thanks for your insight because I was wondering 'bout your dad's remarks. Didn't sound like himself & I thought it might have something to do his Indian deal. Just tell him to pony up for one of the old ones & get what he wants. It'll be worth so much he's bound to be extra careful!! Besides that, doesn't his taste in fine old mechanical devices extend beyound k31's??
Meanwhile, thanks for posting! We love you too!!
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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There were (and still are) plenty of BAD handlettered signs out there, don't kid yourself. Our City Hall has pictures of our main street, circa 1890's, and most of the signs are either poorly done or just plain boring. Ninety percent were lettered in some bastardized form of a Roman letterstyle. Now, we all know there were (and are) some real masters around as well, but they are the exception, not the rule (at least in Small Town USA). Also, I've seen some really nice work in vinyl going for pennies. THAT'S what worries me. Just looked a nicely laid out pick up truck job yesterday (two color, both doors and tailgate) that I found out the guy paid $100.00 for.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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Joey, I love your "vinyl siding" idea! Ray, in response to your topic post ""DITTO'S""!! An' by the way I think mabey we ought to have a "Creator of QUALITY Signs" emblem to display. How would you go about seein' who got one? Would you hav'ta go to "ASA" school or somethin'?
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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P.S. Fergot to mention that I love vinyl 'specially for all those qty. jobs and for all those blah-blah-blah lists an' rules things where only helvetica U&L will do. I love vinyl 'cuz it made everyone say "Oh, I want it HAND-LETTERED" So I got to "mark-up" hand-letterin'!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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My understanding of the "orgins" of the letterhead movement was that there were a few "young" guys (dare i say "hippies"?) who had some basic lettering skills and came across some gilded and otherwise ornate signage and didn't have a clue about how those were made.
leap forward to 2003 and we've got people who don't have a clue about how simple hand painted letters are made.
the times have changed, and the skills needed to be in the sign business have changed.
there are a handful of Mexican and Central American sign painters in my neighborhood. They learned their trade in their home towns and eventually moved up here. They account for 99% of the menus in Mexican restaurants, and they do a bit of signage for other small neighborhood businesses. Their "niche" is their community. I can recognize each one by his lettering. For instance, Pablo Cortez has a style with a very nice "A" but he can't make a decent "R" to save his life. This guy can outletter me any day of the week -- using his alphabet. Ask him to do something different - like script - and he's at a loss. He's got five colors of paint in his kit, and seven brushes.
So, do his painting skills make him "more" of a letterhead than somebody using a vinyl cutter?
I've seen a lot of work done in the "traditional" styles favored by "true" letterheads. Tavern signs can be lovely, really. I haven't seen as many contemporary uses of the same techniques. I haven't seen what sort of sign those guys would have created for my customer who just ordered five "no parking" signs, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have involved glue chipping and mother of pearl.
Keeping the old ways alive is just as valuable as pushing the envelope on the new ways. Ron Percell showed me how to do some incredible things with Sintra. I don't see any value is favoring the old ways OVER the new ways. I do see value in being able to respect both.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I really can't add too much to what's been said (I'm with George on giving Steve a standing O), but I'll offer this perspective: Not one of the people considered to be at the top of the sign trade - the people whose designs and end results we admire in the magazines - have done so without mastering ALL the tools of the trade, including brushes, paint, computers, vinyl, and everything in between. Can you imagine what someone like Frank Atkinson would have done with a computer and an Omega or Signlab setup? Probably everything he did without them - only a bit faster. As far as the future of Letterheads and the industry goes, that's in the hands of EACH of us. We make decisions every day in our work, whether to "bang it out" or to push the envelope of our own creative skills. There is no conflict between paint and vinyl, beyond what we create for ourselves. And while the general public may not consciously notice the difference between good and bad signage, on some level it does sink in - otherwise, there would be no point to designing anything, ever. It ALL matters - to our communities, to our customers, and to those of us who care enough to take the trouble to be better, every day, than we were the day before.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I got my first "sign" job in 1990 I didn't know there was such a thing as a signpainter. If I'd thought about it I'm sure I would have surmised that's how they did it back in the day.
I'd never touched a computer (for graphics) or a paintbrush (except in art class). All I knew is, I could draw & I needed a job.
Flash forward 5 or 6 years & I've inadvertantly become what is known as a graphic designer. Still, I knew nothing of anything except cutting & sticking vinyl, trying to make it look good & trying to keep the boss happy.
One day I pick up a SignCraft magazine. "That's what I wan't to do!" I thought to myself.
I went to work for an old signpainter.
I can't really hand letter & don't have time to learn.
The old man might letter something twice a year. Other than that he'd rather be doing other things while us young ones crank 'em out. He can't even turn on a computer, but he's got one, and a cutter.
I went to work for Al because he was the only one in town who wanted to make cool signs.
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
It seems that this topic is popular amongst all KINDS of crowds. Around here, I get quite a few of the new 'quicky-stick' guys and gals dropping because I WILL talk to them. All they KNOW is vinyl and to hand-letter is either an ancient art they see in the magazines or is just beyond their abilities in their eyes. However, the main thing we discuss is DESIGN and PRICING. So many of them just don't understand design and layout, and admittedly, that is a learned-thru-experience skill. NONE of us ever made our best sign the first time. Pricing is a whole different topic. There are two separate shops that come in here regularly that are just now learning the meaning of good pricing. After we discuss everything from overhead to supplies to paychecks, they start to 'see' why just doubling your investment won't work.
Paint in this area has all but DIED. The only ones I sell hand-lettering to are the street rod guys. But I always end up drawing to design, cutting a mask with the plotter and spraying the letters, BUT it's paint!!! I'm sure Tim Barrow sees more paint than I do, but Timi is one of the best hand-letterers in this area and he PUSHES it!!! The sad part is hand-painted signs and pinstriping has been given a bad rep because of the "smack-wit-a-rag-and-slop-it-on" stripers and painters in this vicinity.
When it all comes down to it, MONEY is the bottom line. I paint on the cool stuff, stick vinyl on everything else. WHY? because that's what the MONEY dictates. Joe Blow's Plumbing doesn't wash his van but once a month, so he really doesn't care about his van, so an airbrushed fade is just as appealing as red letters with a blue outline (unnnnhhhh?!?!)
I love it all: paint, vinyl, computers, mask, knives, brushes, pounce patterns, tape measures, plotters, etc. but in the end, there all just TOOLS.
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That was like a breath of fresh air!!Thanks for your insight because I was wondering 'bout your dad's remarks. Didn't sound like himself & I thought it might have something to do his Indian deal. Just tell him to pony up for one of the old ones & get what he wants. It'll be worth so much he's bound to be extra careful!! Besides that, doesn't his taste in fine old mechanical devices extend beyound k31's?? 
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