I am sitting here reading the tech manual from House of Kolors. I want to order some of the lettering/pinstriping paint to use instead of One Shot.
Anyway, I came across the info on Gold Leafing, using the U-5 Imatitation Gold for sizing? Does anyone else use the HOK Imatiation Gold for size instead of regular gold leaf size? If so, what are the pros and cons according to your experiences with it?
Any opinions on the product would be greatly apprciated.
Thank you,
Pam Eddy, Pam's Signs
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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Wow, I've never heard of this. I will follow the thread to see if anyone has info on the topic, and I will research it myself.
I have used conventional (one-shot) size and leaf under urethaneclear in the past with mixed results. I brushed a two part clear over the gold, then the body shop cleared the whole car. There is a nagging problem of trapped thinner from the conventional size, which seems to limit the adhesion of the clear over the gold. If the HOK striping enamel will serve as size, that would solve a big problem.
bruce
-------------------- Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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I have used ureathanes over normal gold size and gold but only if I brushed the ureathane clear over the gild then cleared the gild with a two part automotive ureathane such as hok or even ppg's base coat clear system.From my experience with ureathanes I think the window for the tack on a ureathane based size would be minimal for anything but very small gilding jobs as the tack would not be that of a three hour size much less the same as a 12 hr size.The problem with this idea is that of the time it would take to gild an extensive design and the amt. of time the hok would retain a tack sufficient to gild and still get an even and consistant burnish. No way I can see hok staying tacky enough to gild for much more than 2 hrs at the max. Remember the size has to be dry enough for there not to be a chance of smudging the surface of the size when you burnish and or gild on top of it. This doesn't leave alot of time with 9 out of ten ureathanes.
Here is what the tech manual says, "Applying Gold Leaf:U-5 Imitation Gold (striping enamel)makes an excellent sizing for applying gold or variegated gold leaf. Mix 4 parts U-5 striping enamel with 1 part KY-200 catalyst. Apply U-5 with brush, let stand until sticky(20-30 minutes), apply gold leaf and allow to dry overnight. Brush away wxcess ouline and clear with catalyzed UC-3 Clear, or topcoat clear the complete part with any of our Kosmic Klears."
Doesn't sound like it would work for larger projects.
Pam
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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Another thing is you would be limited to small lettering as the HOK doesn't work well on letters that are going to take more than one stroke, it tends to pile up. I've sprayed urethanes over gold before. The size was Rolco I think. I never encountered a problem. Of course these were sprint cars and they didn't usually go more than a few months without crashing ., but they never blew anything off at the car wash.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Timi, was the car already clear coated, or just base coated, then clear coated at the same time as the gilding? Do you do much big spraying? (Stuff other than airbrush.)
George, I'm very interested in this HOK product, but it sounds like it woulkd be difficult if not impossible to replace One-Shot as I'm using it now. Brush blends on illustrations, and marble-type effects on panels. Any comments? Also, did my money order arrive on time?
Almost forgot: years ago I did a backlit face for a custom car something or another. I experimented doing an illustration in spray, then used an acrylic enamel thinned with retarder for outlines inside the picture. Turned out real well, but only the outlines were brushed, and black at that.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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James, in answer to your question I always try to gild on top of a cleared finish.This in order to avoid having to redo any basecoats and effects underneath said clear where skewings may stick. The technique I use dictates that I gild in a manner that there are no pinholes and the gold forms a complete metal barrier between the size and the clear protective coat I brush on after I burnish my gild.After the ureathane clear(hardener and clear only no thinner in this mixture)sets up I wash away any skewings and stray specs of gold that are outside the clear coat with prep solvent(I prefer rapid prep).This is the primary reason the gild needs to go on top of a clear coats as if there is any airbrush work and or base effects the prep solvent can affect any detail not sealed and make quite a bit of uneccessary work for one trying to gild.At this point the gold is sealed and it is an easy effort to outline and detail any effects such as shades as were done in the past with asphaltum and varnishes and not worry about staining or touching the gild as it is sealed under clear.I do not however use asphaltum for shades if using ureathanes as they will react eventually,replacing it instead with a ureathane mixture of clear and dark browns and reds to match the original asphaltum shades as close as possible.Once the gild is outlined and finished with any and all embellishments I clear the whole piece if it is feasable such as on a motorcycle tank or a fender.Naturally it is not practical to clear a whole firetruck or an emergency vehicle but the technique remains basically the same except you will need to either mask and spray and or brush one final coat of protective clear when working on top of ureathanes. As for spraying alot I usually enlist the help of an associate who is much better at this and has the proper booth and equipment to do the work in a professional manner safely.
I edited this post to say that this process has held up to fires hot enough to melt plastic vehicle lenses and scorch and blister scotchcal less than a foot away. It has also provided good service on off road emergency vehicles showing wear only in areas where tree branches and or rocks took paint off down to the primer.
posted
James, yes your order made it on time. I also do like Timi and work on top of a clear coat when clearing over anything be it gold leaf, OS or whatever. I still screw up and wiping something off on a base coat is, if not a disaster, at least the sure enough makings of a ghost when cleared. As far as replacing OS with HOK, doing what you are dicribing I'd say no, you couldn't but HOK is a handy additon to a sign kit. I bought the stuff when it first came out and it was horrible. Most of it dried up before I even opened the container. I soured on it really bad. Joey Madden kept pushing me to try it again and I finally relented, thanks Joey I also use some automotive single stage urethanes to stripe with. Most of my work these days is striping and I use far more urethanes than I do OS. I also do some lettering with the urethanes. You are somewhat limited in what you can do lettering wise though, single stroke, scripts, casuals are fine, anything you have to pick at gets pretty difficult. Gotta ad some permit numbers on an 18 wheeler and you get there and the guy is just starting to wash it? No problem, letter them and they will be dry before the ink on the check is. One thing about the urethanes for brushing is they are nothing at all like OS, it's a re-learning experience for sure. The only thing HOK and OS have in common is they are both paints and both require the use of a brush.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
A good gold size cures from the bottom to the surface giving it good adhesive properties for the gold to last. Enamels and two component coatings cure from the surface down which causes gold to be released after the paint films fully cure. A clear topcoat would be the only thing holding the gold in place.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Let me chime in here. I switched from OS to HOK on my vehicles about 6 years ago with excellent results, so I'll give you the skinny. This paint is one hardy rascal. I put it to the test by painting the shields on the hubcap logos of my Buick. I figured if it could take the winter salt from Illinois' roads then it would be the paint for me. Unlike others I want my stuff to last and last. I am currently picking up new customers, because of the fact that my striping is holding up on semis better than my competitors. Even those who have given up on striping because it couldn't stand up to the over-the-road washing have become new customers, because they have heard that my work holds up. I have told numerous letterheads about this paint, but It's great to see other are using it, because I was beginning to think I was the only one. It's amazing to me that the paint is not available through sign supply companies instead of automotive supply companies. Ultimately it is the sign artist that will use this product.
I have also seen this claim for gilding over HOK, but I agree with those posting above. It would have to be very small copy or you better be real quick, because this paint sets up very quickly. In 5 minutes it is dry to touch. I have added retarder from HOK automotive line of paint (sparingly)with good results, but still I can't see how it is possible to have a successful guild with this process.
Instead try using this method. If you have a plotter (I'm assuming you do since you made a post via a computer)cut a mask for your outline shade -- let's just say you're doing a fire truck with gold leaf and a black outline shade. Cut registration marks so you can apply a mask with the actual gold leaf letters to be applied later. Paint this outline/shade area solid using 1 part catalyst to 4 parts black and add a touch of retarder. Paint this area very quickly. Spraying is even better. With a brush don't doddle, but if your not quick enough, try doing 2 thinner coats. Remember this is a urethane and you can go back over it in about 5 minutes. After about a 4 hr dry, use your registration marks and register your mask for the letters. Lightly dust the black area with talcum powder and wipe most of the powder off. Squeegy your mask. Now apply normal quick dry gold size to the HOK black and remove the mask right away. When the size has the proper tack, guild, burnish, engine turn or burnish a convex effect. You can now use the HOK clear 1 part to 4 with retarder and clear the gold leaf. It's so easy.
If you are wanting to just letter something and gold leaf it freehand. Do this with your normal quick or slow size and after guilding, clear your leaf with HOK catalyzed clear 1 part to 4 and then outline and shade with catalyzed HOK the color of your choice.
I think most folks give up on this paint, because it doesn't handle just like OS. There is a learning curve, but it's not insurmountable. I have done several fire trucks with it with great results and if I could figure out how to post a picture I could show you. But I don't see how it's possible to use the actual paint as a size, because it sets up way too fast. -- Bill
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Thanks for the input everyone. I will be ordering some of the HOK paint to start working with. I hate learning something new, but the sign trade is ever changing. With the punishment our striping jobs go through at the truck washes, it's time to look into tougher paint.
I just had a customer in the other day saying the vinyl is not staying on his motorcycle (racer). He said the pressure washer he uses cuts like a sandblaster and with as much mud as he gets on the bike, the pressure washer takes the vinyl off as well as the mud. I guess no one thinks of using a sponge and soapy water anymore, then spraying clean with pressure washer, from a distance. I would paint the info on the bike, but it's a sponsor name and he does want it removeable. I guess my point is, I need to learn more about the tougher paints since everyone is expecting the pressure washers to do all the work instead of a little hand washing anymore.
Thanks again for the replies. Pam
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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I'm happy to see where HoK is used on vehicles by meaningful well balanced sign persons who want to give their customers their best without trying to use 1-Shot cure -all for every project. As far a sizing for vehicles, isn't that what Wunda Size is all about these days? As the world changes, so does its participants.
My website has tought many the use of HoK in the past 7 years its been there
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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I also use some automotive single stage urethanes to stripe with. Most of my work these days is striping and I use far more urethanes than I do OS. I also do some lettering with the urethanes. You are somewhat limited in what you can do lettering wise though, single stroke, scripts, casuals are fine, anything you have to pick at gets pretty difficult. Gotta ad some permit numbers on an 18 wheeler and you get there and the guy is just starting to wash it? No problem, letter them and they will be dry before the ink on the check is. One thing about the urethanes for brushing is they are nothing at all like OS, it's a re-learning experience for sure. The only thing HOK and OS have in common is they are both paints and both require the use of a brush.
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