posted
I have done searches on past topics and still don't have enough information on what I need. My present cutter is a Summa D610 (6 yrs.old) and I would like to upgrade to one with better features. Pounce capability and contour cutting on prints to name two. Is tangetial cutting something worth paying for? I want to cut more intricate and smaller graphics and I understand this will help. Summa has a nice plotter with all these features, but by adding OPUS and pounce and tangetial features it drives the price around $5,000. That's really more than I want to spend. I notice the Vinyl Express plotters have tangetial emulation for a lot less, but wonder if it works anywhere near as well. If this turns out to be another survey as to what and why you use your current plotter, that would help too. It seems the Ioline and Allen Datagraph plotters don't get mentioned much.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
I have been a Gerber shop for years and had been brainwashed into thinking there was NO life after Gerber, (reminds me of my strict catholic upbringing and straying from the flock!)
Anyway I have strayed, I bought a Summa T750 a year ago with OPUS, but without their pouncing tool, only because I have kept my Sprint and S 750 and I pounce with them, I looked at lots of plotters before taking the plunge. I have always liked the heavyduty feel to the Summa Pro series, and although over here I got have bought a Graphtec FC 4100 full width machine for not much more, I decided to go with Summa,and buy a Tangential machine for cutting sandblast resist, and nice clean corners on letters, I can't fault the machine or the service. I also did a cross grade to Signlab Colormaster 5 at the same time, for not much more money than Gerber wanted to upgrade to Omega, and kept my GA software in the deal which means I have 2 design stations and can make use of the benefits of 2 good programs that compliment each other in different ways.
I would stick with Summa, I would also think you would get more for a used T750 in the future than some of the other, more basic plotters. I used to buy lots of sprocket material at inflated prices, but now buy full width and cut it down 750 plus spill which covers most jobs with ease.
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posts: 1552 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have a T750. No OPUS.. I recommend it highly. Its fast,accurate,easy to understand. I didnt buy a pounce wheel for it. I draw patterns with penplot..then perforate by hand with a coarser wheel than you can buy. Now that I have friction feed...I can use the old standby..brown craft paper. By the way....Vinylmaster Pro and Summa make a"lovely couple!!!!!!!" Friction feed is new to me,,I like using scraps that were always wasted before. I never was without tangential knife...and for good reason.They do a better job,especially in heavy materials.
posted
Summa called me at my shop and went over the specifics of the T750. Sounds like an excellent machine. Dual servo motors sounds good too. My D610 was built heavy duty which I like. Summa offered me $1250 on a trade-in which sounds decent but I may opt to keep it or wait for a better offer.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey, Ill mention Ioloine - had one, never goin' back!
I now have a Summa Durasign and its perftect. Fast, accurate, OPOS, the whole shot. I do a lot of directory signs that require small letters if I dont engrave or print them. Its no prob to cut 3/8" vinyl letters (can go smaller but its no fun) and power weed em all day long with this machine. Then throw in some reflective and cut 30' of tanker graphics that tracks perfectly. - good stuff...
------------------ Brian Stoddard Expressions Signs 2621 244th Ave NE Sammamish WA 98074
we started with a vytek gem 40 eight years ago and then bought an allen 830 cutter two years ago. we loved the cutting and pouncing ability of it so much we just recently purchased a second one.
we have "retired" the first one to overflow duty and to serve as a back up to the other. we felt that it would be foolish to be left without a cutter for any significant length of time. we are currently looking at several offers on selling the gem 40. hate to see the ol' workhorse go but we really need the room.
dave, as tempting as the trade in value of your machine is, could you go and replace it for the same kind of money. it seems that the $1,200 (while it is a significant amount of money) seems like cheap insurance against breakdowns, etc. it could be the difference of getting work done in a timely fashion and having a nervous breakdown in the event of some unforeseen disaster.
whatever you choose to do, i am sure it will be a decision based on insight and wisdom. it is a tough one to make. wish you the best.
have a great one!
------------------ Bruce Bowers DrCAS Signtech
"how great are His signs..." Daniel 4:3
i am a proud supporter of this website!
Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would like to see more people input on this one. I am not doing the typical survey as to what you own, but more about the features you like in yours.
Performance Sign was really pushing the Ioline (30" for about $3200), though he told me he thought the Graphtec 4100 series was the best of all cutters.
I have narrowed my choices due to pounce capablities, tracking and contour cutting to the following models: Ioline, Vinylmaster Ultra T series, Graphtec, though I will still consider Summa's high end (thought pricey).
Hey Jim Doggett, one salesmen told me tangential cutting is old technology.
Vinylmaster seems the best deal and features but makes me wonder why? I noticed it is manufactured in Taiwan, whereas most of the others are here in the U.S.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hope you get the responses you are looking for, I would agree with the saleman in saying that tangential cutting is old technology after all all Gerber original cutters are tangentail, but making a fast servo steered plotter cut in a real tangential fashion, rather than a slower stepper motor driven machine is great, the Summa T plotters have been around some time, but it goes like an express train and more, often cutting faster than it takes you to load the machine.
As a reference point the price difference here was 59,000kr against 52,000 for a graphtec 4100 full width and the Summa T750 30" with OPUS etc. I got mine even cheaper at a trade show. You have to know what your market is and what would suit your shop.
I tend to buy stuff here that I hope I can rely on for years and felt that the Summa machine was built at least as well as Gerber machines and comparing their prices was a much better option. Go out and check them out in the flesh, try and load them yourself, aquaint yourself with the menu's on the various machines, don't just be steered by the price.
Hope your happy with whatever you decide to buy....there's plenty of choice out there.
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posts: 1552 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've had the 30" Ioline SmarTrac for a couple years now. I don't do any pouncing or contour cutting with it but its been great for cutting everything from rubylith to reflective. With its dials for pressure and speed I don't think there is any easier machine to use. I also have an Envision 375 for cutting Edge prints. I had two VinylMaster machines before I bought the Ioline and I sent them both back. First one was missing the serial board and the second cut poorly.
------------------ Brian Snyder Sign Solutions www.njsign.com Woodbridge, New Jersey
Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've been using the same ROLAND plotter for 10 years.....a PNC1100. It's NEVER quit on me .....NOT ONCE! I also have gone through the Colorcamm series of cut/print machines.....again....EXCELLENT. I'm now using the ROLAND FJ400 large-format printer. GREAT STUFF SO FAR!!!! I'm sure their is hardware that offers a lttle more or less of "this and that", but the ROLAND products have always been pretty "bullet proof" for me. GREAT PRODUCTS....GREAT SERVICE!
------------------ Bob Burns Bob Burns Signs
1619 Oregon Ave. Prescott, Az 86305 1-928-778-5879
Posts: 2121 | From: Prescott, Arizona, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
our allen cutters pounce excellently. i have run 30+ foot patterns through the cutter with no problems. it is a little noisy when it pounces but you do tend to get used to it.
it tracks long runs of vinyl nicely. it has a long tracking system and we have run 15-20 foot runs of vinyl (one piece layouts and cut files ... not just several cut files run consecutively) with no problems.
it runs quietly when cutting and is very fast. it is easy to set up the different weights and has 6 separate presets that you can set. i am uncertain what the max weight setting is but i know it will cut sandblast mask (using the 60 degree blade) and reflective vinyl very well.
an optical "bombsite" attachment is available for the machine to facilitate the contour cutting of vinyl. we do not have one so i am unable to give you any commentary as far as to the actual usage of it. i was assured by the factory that it performs well.
we purchased our machine a little bit ago for approximately $3,800.00 from graphic resource systems in new jersey.
sorry to misunderstand what you were looking for... doh! hope this information helps.
have a great one!
------------------ Bruce Bowers DrCAS Signtech
"how great are His signs..." Daniel 4:3
i am a proud supporter of this website!
Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dave, the Graphtec 30" is both tangential and swivel. Either is programmable and the tangential will cut down to 1/16" characters. I kept a 750 for pounce patterns, but the graphtec is a real bullet-proof, 70ips (top end) workhorse.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Hi Dave... I will tell you what it is that I like about the Graphtec 4100+. I am opinionated. There is a reason..or rather, reasons. I don't care what you call the technologies involved, it's the results that count, and I will state for the record that if you want to compete, and you must if you expect to stay in this business, then you had better be able to do more of a wider variety of work, do it faster and noticeably better than the guy up the street. Tangential operation is a concept. There are different ways to achieve tangential operation. One of those ways has survived technical evolution which, like biological evolution, says that only the best designs carry on. I make no statement as to the "trueness" of the design...they're all true...some work better than others. Do you need "tangential"? Absolutely. I assume any machine can cut vinyl, it's HOW you cut it that matters, and Tangential is one of those features that we use to cut those tiny 1/16" characters. It also allows us to cut Hi intensity and "DIAMOND grade" reflectives. You simply could not pull an ordinary swivel knife through the top coat of either without tngential. Tangential also makes it possible for the 4100 to cut 1/4" Times Roman or University Roman in Anchor's rubber stencil or even Hartco's PVC based monument grade material. I have never seen any other machine produce equal results in either material. You just wouldn't believe how the serifs look...brutal and gorgeous, especially in PVC. I assume any other tangential technique would work too...but not as well. The 4100's have a "soft landing system", the benefit of which is that the instant the knife holder touches the surface of the material, it knows much more about that material than we do...how much pressure to exert, when it has achieved that pressure; precisely where the surface is so it can lift the blade just enough to clear the material, and it will never scratch the backing material of Rubylith, let's say, or cut deep enough to tear the saran wrap stuff under the Hi-intens or Diamond reflectives. Does it pounce?? Of course it pounces. I've never liked machine pouncing, but it does as good a job as most others that rely on the paper punch method. You still have to sand the backside...someone told me you could pounce in "mirror" mode, then sand the front side instesd. Countour cutting is an easy experience, though manual set up is required. There are some images that don't have registration marks previously applied so we don't expect the machine to look for them. The procedure accounts for scaling disparities as well. The important thing is that we can take the output from any printer, mount it and cut. Whether this is a meaningful or not to you.I don't know. We don't "guarantee" a specific tracking length, but we say you should expect at least 10 meters (approx 40 ft). The thing is that it's correctable on-the-fly. Not like the Odyssey but it works well. (Bob Rochon..take notice, you still have warranty time left...use it if you're not satisfied with your tracking). Graphtecs aren't cheap...they shouldn't be, but they do provide the absolute maximum bang for your buck. Take a test drive. The SGIA show will be in Anaheim at the end of the month and we'll be there. Pretend you are your own worst customer...bring the most horrific challenge you can think of (or send me a file) and I'll do it on the spot.See for yourself what it takes to compete...successfully. hk
------------------ Howard Keiper Sales Mgr., Graphtec Benicia, Ca. keip@pacbell.net
Posts: 409 | From: Benicia, Ca., USA | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
iam with bob..ROLAND....i got a new, used PNC-1100, big improvment over the pnc-1000. found it on ebay for $1000...24" material down to 2" material. cuts 24-28 ips...and has digital readout of down force...and this is roland technology from 94-95...just think what a roland cm-300, cm-400 can do...
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I suspect the "salesman" that told you tangential was old technology only sell drag-knife cutters. We offer both ... and our tangential cutters also cut in drag-knife mode.
I encourage Summa T-Series users to weigh in here. None, of which I am aware, ever cut in drag-knife mode. Once you have tangential, you'll never go back to drag. The cutting is sublime, and weeding is much easier. But don't take my word of it, ask anyone who owns a Summa T-Series cutter.
We first introduced Tangential cutters in 1989. I guess that's old by technology standards. However, we've evolved the technology since then, and have pioneered many additional technical advances ... not least of which the OPOS technology you eluded to in your original post.
Moreover, you already own a SummaSign. So I don't need to tell you how well our cutters track.
In all sincerity, if I were in the market for a sign-making system, I'd buy a Summa. I'd consider a Graphtec, but ultimately I think I'd weigh in favor of the Summa for it's Tangential and OPOS capabilities, as well as it's tracking performance at top speed. Tangential and OPOS are distinct market advantages, so it comes as no surprise that some might attempt to discount them.
Best Regards,
Jim
------------------ Jim Doggett Vice President Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA jim@summusa.com
[This message has been edited by Jim Doggett (edited September 04, 2001).]
Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
Something else to consider: if you're satisfied with Tangential Emulation (a drag-knife cutter with firware enhancements that simulate tangential blade action), you may want to consider our SummaCut series. SummaCut has Tangential Emulation, and is priced at $1999 for a 24-inch or $4499 for a 48-inch. I wouldn't begin to suggest that "emulation" in any way replaces an actual motorized Tangential cutting head (nor would anyone who uses our T-Series products), but if you're satisfied with drag-knife emulation (read: Ultra T, et al), you can save a ton by going with the SummaCut ... or if your D-Series SummaSign is a Pro model (call our tech department to confirm), download the latest firmware at http://www.summausa.com and you'll have TE for free.
Regards,
Jim
------------------ Jim Doggett Vice President Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA jim@summusa.com
Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
Jim, unfortunately my older D610 cannot be upgraded. As far as I can discern there is no real tangential cutting in the models we are discussing except for Summa. Am I right in stating that Graphtec and Vinyl Express Ultra are emulation types? Ioline is definately not according to sales people I have talked to.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Whoa, doggies! James, are you telling me that my Graphtec won't cut 1/8" letters in "drag mode" and that they won't strip easily?? Pay us a visit on your next trip through the northwest and I'll educate you. I only use tangential mode for the really small stuff. I have other plotters, but none have ever cut as small or as cleanly as our Graphtec. I have no experience with your plotter, and I'm sure it's a good one, but don't make blanket statements about what other plotters won't do. You could be wrong. In my case, you certainly are.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Dave... I doubt that your customers will walk out of your shop caring whether the cutting head was motor driven or not. They will care, and so will you, whether the finished job was worth the money you charged or whether they feel they could have done better someplace else. Get samples...make them yourself if you have to, and make your decision based on the quality of the work, not a salesman's mumbo-jumbo...and that includes this salesman.
Jim... You're hung up on this "True" vs. Emulation thing. Get over it. As you pointed out in a previous post Graphtec does indeed make a "true" tangential head for our "expensive", as you said, flatbed line of cutters....but not for cutting vinyl. For cutting leather and cardboard and Lexan and rubber boat material and the like. Some of our "true" tangential heads oscillate (the blades do), some ultrasonically. We're not neophytes at this. We think we've developed drag knife technology to the limit and that accommodates any label you might attach to it. What is...is. hk
------------------ Howard Keiper Sales Mgr., Graphtec Benicia, Ca. keip@pacbell.net
Posts: 409 | From: Benicia, Ca., USA | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to say there are a lot of good opinions concerning this subject, and though I would throw my 2 pennies in the bucket.
Several years ago, I was tasked with buying a new plotter to replace an aging Gerber 4b and S750 ( both good machines, and both run, we just needed something that cut at a little quicker speed ). I looked at Graphtec, Ioline, Roland, Summa, and one or two more.
All have their features, and problems, but I got to try one or two in my shop for a couple of days ( with the exception of the Summa ). After it was all said and done, I ended up with a Summa T-1300 with OPUS, pounce, and almost everything, ( I wish I had gotten the "catch grate" on the bottom ). I love this machine. I do have a little bit of problem with paper wanting to wrinkle up if I leave the roll on, so I just run off what I need, cut it off, and let it hang out the back. I can personally attest to 75'-80' long plots, and the tracking staying true. After two years, this work horse is still going strong. Thumbs up to Summa on this one.
------------------ Mark Kottwitz Harrogate, TN mark-k@goeaston.net
I cannot discount Summa because I never owned one, but I did compare a lot of plotters when I bought my 4100-75 roughly 3 years ago. I have never been let down at the weedability, throughput and overall quality of the machine. I can go on & on here but Howard has outlined all the fine details.
I will state highly to get in front of one and see for yourself.
I looked at Roland, Ioline, Gerber, and Allen Datagraph before buying.
It was a no brainer.
Graphtec was my best value.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Indeed; I am as you say "hung up" on real tangential vs. enhanced overcut routines ... later termed, by sales/marketing folks, "Tangential Emulation." Tangential Summas are the best selling cutters in Europe, and a substantial portion of our sales in the Americas and Asia. I suspect, the success of the Summa T-Series has something to do with Drag-Knife cutter makers labeling their technologies as Tangential, when by definition, they are not.
Rather than debate real vs. so-called, I encourage you to speak with people that have used both. To say there's a clear superiority, is understating the facts.
Straightforward question: are Graphtec cutters tangential or drag-knife? In other words, does the blade turn tangentially, or by dragging across the material?
Regards,
Jim
------------------ Jim Doggett Vice President Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA jim@summusa.com
Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
In terms of cutters, I think the pissing match status quo is mine is better than yours. Thats not a put down, its what makes America great! (Canada and Eurasia too I imagine)
I think a lot of the details people need to hear are too often overlooked or forgotten to be asked in the first place.
Things you REALLY need to know (and ask!)-
where's this thing made? whats the warranty? where are the service centers and what about a loaner?
Stepping motors or servo? 1,2, 3 motors?
blade type, meaning whats it compatible with (Roland would be the defacto choice here, as everyone sells those), what angles are they available in, prices. COMPARE prices on blades - you're gonna use them more than anything else on your cutter.
downforce - do you ever plan to cut reflective or resist? Then get 400+ grams. Rolands are generally the weakest cutters downforce wise.
Drivers - will this thing cut out of your program? what about straight out of Windows? (This is the strongest argument for a Roland, I dont know why others makers cant see that.) If they are supplied, whats the update path or frequency? Are they commited to older cutters now? They better be.. yours will be old tomorrow... then you'll need their support. and.. is it FREE!
Firmware - is it a "yours after the check clears" company, or do they stay commited to their existing customers as well as their older ones?
Compatiblity with your current, or future plans for software - Does your current software work with the cutter of choice natively, or is it some second hand export/import/translation deal?
Whats the cutter include? - just what is included.. knife holder, pen holder, pounce kit, extra springs for the hold downs, stand, media baskets, vinyl roller/feedtray, cut-off knife, etc.
What about future use - Think you might get thermal printer someday? Does the plotter you're looking at offer a registration package that will work with a Summa, Edge or other?
Size/Space - can you handle the space this thing takes up? (Roland made 15" cutters that were built on 24-30" chassis.. you could get a true 15" from someone else, taking up 1/2 the real estate)
Is the manufacturer gonna be here next year? - lets face it, this is a tumultous business. I can think of several cutter makers that are long gone. When a company goes out of business, not only does that sever your line of support, but it devalues your cutter signifiicantly.
what do you REALLY need - Are you doing 4x8's most of the time? You need a 48" cutter. Are you the king of magnetics? Sounds like a 15 or 24 will get you by. You get the picture. Overgunning is better than undergunning here, but above all, be realistic.
Tangential - maybe I'm crazy, but... who the hell actually cuts 1/8" letters regularly? If you do - you're an idiot - get a Edge, Summaprint or ColorCamm and save your sanity! Yes, its a nice feature with usefulness, yes it makes a difference, yes if you can afford it go for it, but dont let it be your deciding factor unless you think you just cant live without it. I would say 98% of the cutters out there today are NOT tangential, so its obviously not stopping them.
Oh - one more thing - I cant see ANY reason to buy a Gerber unless you're going to get an Edge, and have to have it. That Odyssey is a cool looking beast, but financially its an albatross.. Its not the fastest, not the most versatile, and costs enough to buy two-to-four cutters that can out pace it on all fronts. Their tracking-sensor technology might be just crackerjack, but if you spend an extra 5-10 seconds when loading the vinyl to start with, you shouldnt have to worry about it in the first place.
And in case you're wondering - I personally own a (very lightly used, but heavily tweaked) antique Roland ColorCamm 5000. My next purchase, based on all the things I've illustrated above - will more than likely be the Summa. I like the personal service I've received so far - real people, no pressure, honest answers and honest sincerity along with what I consider fantastic price (Read that, bang for buck).
For years I'd heard Graphtec's were the cadillac of the industry, but like the Gerber's - I cant see the extra cost for the nameplate. If they last twice as long as a Summa or other brand, then yes, they may be worth it. But with most companies today being almost level in ways of downforce, tracking and speed, there just arent that many ways to skin the proverbial cat.
and thats the way I see it.
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
posted
All good points, Rob. I'm not even remotely close to being a plotter expert, but I still maintain that the old Gerber 750 is THE best pounce plotter ever made. As for the rest, I can see that the Graphtec in the shop has cut fast, clean and positive for two years now. If I can cut a 1/16" character cleanly and quickly, then I'm not sure anything else matters to us. If we can track 25' in a run, what more do we need? I'm sure that the fine points of terminology and approach mean a lot to the sales reps, but it means nothing to me if the equipment fills all of our requirements. The bulletproof warrantee and loaner deal means one hell of a lot to me. I hope I never have to use it.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Jim: The short answer is..it's either or both. Yes, the blade turns tangentially but it does not require a motor and any other associated apparatus to do that. You turn it (the tangential function) on or off. This may be misleading. Swivel, or castor action takes care of ensuring that the blade is constantly forced into the work for curves, and the machine simply examines the array of vectors in the buffer to determine how best to begin and end each segment. The knife is never pulled around a corner or any acute angle. Also, I don't in any way mean to disparage your product..it is by any definition a superior machine. It obviously has earned it's fine reputation...I don't deny that.
Robb and Jim: This whole discussion was not meant to be a pissing contest. My problem is in the way "true tangential" is touted as a feature by which one machine is made out to be "clearly superior" to another. It is not clearly superior in any way or fashion; if it were, all tangentially equipped machines would be motor driven. Clearly, they are not. I would be much more receptive to the use of the word "original" instead of "true" to define the purpose. We, the both of us, are caught up in the method, not the concept. It is the concept of tangential operation that is so valuable and answers Dave's question.
Robb brings up many good points...I wish I'd read them last nite so I had time to ponder. So...The Graphtec 4100+ series is made in Irvine, CA., for worldwide distribution. That is where our service depot is located. We offer a three year warranty on the machines and we do have a loaner program for machines that must be returned for service. Graphtec picks up the freight for all but one leg of the freight circuit, even for the loaner. We still provide parts and service for machines made in 1990. How's that?
All Graphtec machines are servo driven. The knife system (Z-axis)is servo driven as well.
I emphatically disagree with Robb re knife blades. Anyone who seriously thinks that there is a defacto standard and that Roland defines it would believe that there is only one kind of paint brush, and you get it at ACE hardware. We believe in using the right tool for the right job. In Graphtec parlance that might mean using anything from a general purpose blade to one with a Sapphire tip, to one made specifically for cutting Diamond grade. Prices are generally competitive at anywhere from about $25 to $85 each...yes, that's $85.00. Most users claim about 3-4 months use per blade.
Blade wear is related somewhat to downforce. I agree that there is a minimum force required for cutting certain materials, but using the right blade at the right time is much more important. Finesse trumps muscle every time, in cutting or Summo (Summa? ) wrestling. When I see a down force much over 400-450 grams,I know something's not right with the rest of the system. I'm talking ordinary vinyl cutters, notspecialized machines. Graphtec cuts Diamond at less than our max. or about 400g.
I also take issue with the statement that only Roland cuts from Corel. Ioline's been doing that for years.
------------------ Howard Keiper Sales Mgr., Graphtec Benicia, Ca. keip@pacbell.net
Posts: 409 | From: Benicia, Ca., USA | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm no plotter expert, I'll be the first to admit it. I just happen to be pondering the very same question and choices lately, so this postly was timely.
Call me Johnny on the spot color.
I should clarify a few things I under-clarified last night. One, I meant no reason to buy a NEW Gerber. I'll be the first to admit that their old stuff seems to go on forever. I've got friends with 4B's and some white-open-architecture-thingie Gerber 15" plotters just running like sewing machines after more than a decade. I also know Rolands that run after 10 years. Bottom line on that deal is - The Gerber cost X, the Roland cost Y, the Gerber tracked better, faster, with less errors (more than likely, lets face it, those old roland drivers were nightmares at times). So did the difference between X and Y offset with the profit made or lost due to time, lost media, etc? Thats a personal decision. For me, the $5k I spent on the ColorCamm has been a good investment versus the $10k or whatever a Gerber 15" cost in 1995.
I like Rolands for what they are. Good, fast, cheap, easy to get along with vinyl cutters. If I were doing heavy production work, (more than a 50yd. roll of vinyl per day) I dont think I'd count on a Roland. Being a low to mid volume shop, the Roland suits me and my style just fine. I like the tweaking and setup and extra time it takes to make that thing produce a sign. I'm a cheapskate by nature so I gang things together to conserve vinyl. Yada yada yada, you get the picture.
Now that things are picking up and I want something solid and dependable, big format and fast as a blown hemi on 98%, I've narrowed it down to the Summa and Graphtec.
They both have great features, histories, company's are both solid, real people, and they are machines with real track records.
They also make Rolands, Vinyl Express and other low-line cutters pale in comparison when it comes to versatility - but does everyone NEED versatility. Another personal question I addressed in the earlier post. I WANT it, therefore it is important to me.
When it comes time to cut the check, may the sleaziest salesman win! Thats right boys, sell your soul to put me in that big daddy cutter. Why, I'll sing your praises on ever BBS around.. I'll run your stickers on the racecar, plaster them on the truck, give free seminars at the old signcutter's home. Yessir, I'm a signwhore just like me heroes in the sign magazines! C'mon, try me!
somebody get me a golf shirt with their logo on it, I'll be your huckleberry for a 48" cutter!
My dad always told me - buy the very best you can afford, if not a little more than you can afford. You'll never be sorry you bought the best.
Howard - points to your points... by the thing about the blades I meant availability versus cost. Roland blades are everywhere, and cheapest usually. Graphtec, Gerber, Summa whoever - are somewhat harder to come by and more expensive.. plus not everyone carries 30,45, 60 degree blades for every cutter known to man. Sometimes you're just cutting 18" letters and any ol' blade will do.. so why not a cheap-o Roland blade instead of the $30+ blade. I'm sure the factory blades are better than "Joe Blow's all night cheap-ass blade store" blades, but you and I both know by and large most folks go for the cheapest way out... kinda like putting the cheapest gas you can find in a $40k Suburban. It happens every day.
From what I've read of your history and know of your policies - I would say Graphtec is akin to Cadillac or Saturn in the way you take care of the customer after the sale. The idea that American hands built the machine versus Chinese or otherwise is of major importance to some. I have customer that checks EVERY label in whatever I sell them, to make sure its Made In America. I'm all for keeping my money in the homeland, since I cant sell signs to people who are broke!
I didnt know Ioline cut from Corel, I'm sorry for my uneducated assumption. I would say in my defense that if * I * never heard it, that it is under-advertised. I've always said that if Corel ever gets their stuff together and allows plotters to cut straight from Corel with the features of the dedicated sign programs (Inspire, Flexi, etc.) - the dedicated software companies will need new jobs!
Of course that $5k software is one of the few things left that keeps EVERYONE from owning their very own cutter, now isnt it.
Sometimes I feel like a turn of the century ice cutter. I can just see the axe salesmen back having this very same argument.
Nothing remains the same except change.
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
In point of actual fact, the short answer is: the blades in all drag-knife cutters turn by dragging across the material (yours, ours, others). They are not what is widely thought of as Tangential.
Agreed, however, on this ain't no pissin' match. Merely a clarification, upon which we seem to disagree. I mean no disrespect to Howard and have the greatest admiration, and liking, for him.
Moreover HK, I'd agree with you that the technical mumbo-jumbo is moot. What matters is how well the things cut. I have myriad folks who've gone from drag-cutters (yours, ours, others) to a T-Series¢â Summa, who'd support my contention that Summa Tangential Cutters are head-and-shoulders above. Now if you can find me one Summa Tangential Cutter user that made the switch to a drag-knife cutter (any), and thinks they made a step up, I'd be impressed.
Customer satisfaction speak volumes ... which is why Robb is smart to consider Graphtec or Summa exclusively. Naturally Robb, I'd like it if you bought a Summa. But both are *great* products ... unless Tangential is a key consideration. In this I honestly believe we're unparalleled.
Best Regards to all (this thread rocks!),
Jim
------------------ Jim Doggett Vice President Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA jim@summusa.com
Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
These responses have been great. You can't believe the people that monitor this board who I have talked to. I have also contacted a few letterheads here privately to get their private input. A lot of astute buyers here.
All that said, I can't beleive how indecisive I have become. Maybe too much information isn't so good eh? Probably has more to do with money than anything. When you see the plotter you want and see another with similar features for $1,500 less, doubt creeps in.
For me, I have been trying to keep the cost around the low $3,000. Some of the plotters will get me there but with the higher end ones, only a trade in on my Summa D610 will do that. Do I want to lose the back up cutter and reliability for that? I will decide next week. From what I hear, a few more are getting ready to buy too.
Thanks Bruce, you had to go and pitch the Allen Datagraph to me. Now more to ponder.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
All, esp. Dave and Jim.. I can go no farther (except I didn't tell you, Jim, what we do when we get to the ends or beginnings of lines...without the motor).
I've been in the plotter business nearly 30 years, most of it selling, fixing or explaining. Take my word for it, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that is as satisfying (to a salesman)as a real honest, good faith debate between those who feel passionately about their products and who can and will defend their positions and products...which, of course, ends in a purchase order. I enjoy taking on Jim Doggett at any opportunity...I examine the bb's every day hoping to ambush him somehow.
I hope no one was offended by the exchanges or the innuendo.
You are first class, Jim, and the top of the class. Salute. hk
------------------ Howard Keiper Sales Mgr., Graphtec Benicia, Ca. keip@pacbell.net
Posts: 409 | From: Benicia, Ca., USA | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
We..belong to a mu..tu..al................... ad..mir..a..tion..society Ol'Jimmyandme!
heh
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I think I should clarify 'pissin match'. Thats where two or more people go back and forth as to why their team, company, racer, singer, hero, or choice of striping brush is the best. It's not meant in anger or ill will, its just kind of a chest out bravado banter.
You boys did a good job.
I realize there is a great sense of admiration and mutual respect here, and you guys adhere to that old line about "you never raise yourself by lowering others". Thats comendable.
But.....
If you have any information - be it by way of testing, been told, overheard, or otherwise, anything more documentable than "Vytek's Suck" - about why a certain plotter or company has a problem or shortcoming, I for one wish you'd share it.
Vytek comes to mind as being notoriously problematic. When they were out there, they were cheaper than anyone else. Why didnt some other salesguy say hey - those things have X problems or Y is the reason they are junk.
You get the picture.
I think we will be in short supply with those sort of revelations about either of the two companies represented here. After all, they are two of the best plotters in the world. I still think there are things known about others stuff that should be shared, if for no other reason than educating the public.
When I bought my ColorCamm (November, 1995! first one on the east coast I think Roland told me... they also told me they'd respect me in the morning and the check was in the mail.. LOL), I had no idea there were different types of motors, blade angles available, etc.
So before this thread dies - if anyone has a piece of information pertaining to why X stinks, or Z is wonderful, lets hear about it and share the knowledge.
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
posted
I think that X stinks because of the conflicting intersecting points, and Z isn't that wonderful because it doesn't seem to know which direction it wants to go.
there.....
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Regarding the summa D610 keep it...I worked for a company that sold and serviced summa's....have never replaced anything on a summa except a small rubber pad in the head assembly...used eyeglass repair kit nose piece....we have had summas running every day without fail for over 9 years...totally awesome machines....even the new lightweights...my first test was to see how far we could stretch the tracking...just using some junk vinyl 16" wide we made a plot 52 ft long with 4 quarter inch stripes and it tracked flawlessly...you do have to clear the floor of any objects front and back of the machine... also....have been able to cut and weed some non serif alphabets as small as .050...and did it for the public at the BigShow in Indy and Columbus Ohio
Just a great machine....keep it!!!!!!
------------------ robert kudlicka great lakes graphic supply youngstown, ohio 44505 rkudlicka@sbcglobal.net
) wrestling. When I see a down force much over 400-450 grams,I know something's not right with the rest of the system. I'm talking ordinary vinyl cutters, notspecialized machines. Graphtec cuts Diamond at less than our max. or about 400g.
Printer-friendly view of this topic