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First I had to practically stop marketing vinyl or painted signs because I always get underbid. I'm fine with that, like the sandblasted signs better anyway.
Well now there is a local shop here selling sandblasted HDU signs for $30/sq.ft. How in the world can they do that? I've seen them. They look like crap. But some of the bigger names around here buy from them because they are cheaper. UUGGHHHH! This housing community is made up of 1/2 million dollar homes and they go to this cheap signmaker who can't even blast them even.
I'm seriously starting to think about a career at Wal-Mart.
[ June 19, 2003, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Amy, I have seen some of your work, and I believe the customers will come to their senses. I usually get $50sq.ft. and I think I may be too cheap. They will lose so much money at $30sq.ft. that it shouldn't take them long to run themselves out of business. Hang in there, it will be okay.
posted
$30 a square??? Thats crazy. As you know, these signs cant be the greatest quality. It will nip them in the but soon, then you have all of your customers, and theres! If not, good luck at Wally World!!!!
-------------------- Devin Fahie Sebago Signworks Rt. 302, Raymond, Maine 207-655-6622 devin@sebagosignworks.com Posts: 96 | From: Raymond, Maine | Registered: Jun 2003
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Amy I'm really sorry to hear you are having such a difficult time. I know its not for lack of trying. I wish I had an answer for your current situation but I'm afraid you're going to have to hold on until the other guy prices himself out of business. I know that doesnt help you put food on the table.
Maybe you might have to find something steady and do the signs on the side. But I do know that sign making is in your blood.
Just hang in there till they drag your bones away kiddo. I hope things improve for you.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
$55 a sf for simple relief copy. Up to $225 a sf for complex carving, and that's in Kalispell!! I thought we were the least expensive customer base around! Geez, man!
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Hang in there, Amy. I have been thru this a few times and quality always outlasts the underbidder. They will do some damage, but in the end, they will damage themselves.
Just think, you can look forward to saying "ha! I win!" later...lol
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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She who eats last eats the best... or something like that.....
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6454 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Amy..I have seen that you do good work... That is a given.
What you have to do is try to market yourself to corporate customers. THEY are the ones that will pay the bills!
The "once time" customers are great but they don't pay the bills. They are just the icing on the cake.
Go out and try to get a foot in the door on a corporate account.
Don't sell the vinyl/paint market short...For me it is what keeps me VERY busy (don't do the paint part.... a few customers who I was silly enough to do airbrush blends on vinyl, not realising they would like it enough to want it every time!!! LOL )
Amy..Do what Bob Burns has said for a long time..and I agree with him..give SERVICE SERVICE SERVICE!!!!!!
Keep yer head up lady!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
as the other have said...don't even try to compete...but create a wedge...you will be the one laughing...guaranteed!
Go to the sba....website...go get your certification as a woman owned business...I gurantee you that things will change for you very quickly...it is all about working smarter to find that angle!
There are companies that are looking for these kind of businesses to supply them...and are very agressive about it!...Look into it...you won't regret it!
-------------------- Robert Beverly Arlington, Texas Posts: 1023 | From: Arlington, Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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I agree with Ray, quality, quality, quality. And service. I don't think at $30.00/sq' they will be able to give both. . .Hang in there, Wal-Mart can find some other employee.
-------------------- Lauri Goretski Custom Murals N6334 HWY 107 TOMAHAWK WI 54487 CustomMurals1@aol.com Posts: 127 | From: Tomahawk Wi | Registered: Apr 2003
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You mention that you might have to give up eating. Once you see their work, you won’t have an appetite, anyway!
I deal with the frustrating “Cheap Sign Lottery” also. These multimillion dollar property management companies think they will finally hit the jackpot and get a first class job for very little money.
One high profile, national company, with thousands of apartment units in the Dallas area, none renting for under a thousand dollars a month, constantly buys garbage. I recently lost another one of their jobs to a low bidder, who will not even be able to permit what they sold, since they are ignorant of the restrictions of the local ordinance. I reminded the purchaser I was dealing with of how many of that vendor’s signs are having to be replaced and the answer was: “Yeah. I know... but they’re cheaper than you.”
I built a number of signs for them about a decade ago and was told those were the nicest signs they had on their properties in the entire country. Those signs still look great, however, some of the low bid ones they bought have been replaced three times in six years. One of the properties that has been re-signed in triplicate is one I originally lost over a fifty dollar price difference–on a nine thousand dollar package.
When they are selling their product, they are quick to remind their clientele: “You get what you pay for”. When buying, they think they are the exception to that rule.
I guess we all have to just keep plugging... Wait a minute... I see a windmill that need jousting... Attack!
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Amy, Robert might be on to something here. I don't know what the affirmative action situation is there, but here in Atlanta 30% of all city work has to go to minority contractors. Being a woman, you're entitled to bid on jobs some of us can't touch. Check with the larger municipalities in your area and get on a bid notification list. If you don't mind the governmental red tape, you can make some real money. I did some work a few years ago for a lady who didn't actually produce a single thing, but bid on projects for the city of Atlanta and subbed everything out, adding a hefty profit for her trouble. I perceived it as political prostitution, but she made a great living. At least you'd be making the signs you bid on.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Don't let 'em wear you down Amy!! Another idea is to talk to the other shop & see if they'll give you a price break (so your cost is $20 to $25 a sq. ft) to turn these cheapies out as a sub, then sell all of 'em you can to the low-ball customers. Let them design & fab the damn things & if you get tired of messin' with 'em just cut your price to whatever your cost is & they'll wind up tryin' to compete with themselves.
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Ya know I've been hearing the " keep your work standards up" for years and this business only gets worse every year. Everyday I have the eye in the back of my head looking for a better way. Once I find it I'm gone myself.
I dont know what it is about the sign business but it attracts the most stupidest neanderthals I have ever seen. seems to be plagued with low esteem " pat on the back" " they like me junkies.
Well I already like me, I can pat my own back and I just want to live a modest living like all the people I do sings for.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I like the line when I hand a business card to a new customer.
They say Nice Card and my reply is. I make great designs and signs too! If the image of my card caught their eye,. Then the quality of my workmanship will Shock and Ah! them.
Hang in there...
Show them a before they came to you! and a after if they had.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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I have to admit that there are a couple of morons in Kalispell too. They aren't competition for us, but they do something that has long term effects on the entire sign community. They "condition" the public to expect their unrealistic pricing levels long after they've folded and gone back to whereverthehell they came from to begin with. We get 4 or 5 of these idiots showing up here every spring with their computer and trunk full of film. They want to live in NW Montana no matter what it takes, so they set about wrecking the price base once more. Amy, we've concentrated on nothing but architects and general contractors for years. I can't tell you how to make things happen in your own back yard, but do try to cultivate a realtionship with specific people within those kinds of agancies. Make it personal with specific individuals and then maintain contact. Make them feel that you are interested in taking care of them no matter what the inconvenience to you. Build that kind of confidence and you won't have to worry about the cheap "icky stickies". (Rosemary's term)
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I appreciate the words of encouragement however I can't wait forever here.
I lost a job for 4 27 sq.ft. signs for a BIG TIME community to this guy. Like I said, they look like crap and they still buy from him.
I joined the Home Builders Association and the guy who asked for the prices is the President Elect. He went to the guy who isn't in the Assoc. So much for that only do business within the Assoc. BS. Just like the Chamber.
I was thinking if I hired someone that is as full of crap as they are maybe he/she can BS into some work.
I looked into the Minority Business Deal. I practically have to give up my child to be in it and the few bids I've done for them were too high.
My husband got layed off from a 16 yr. job in March due to plant closure. This is our bread and butter now. He's been looking for work for two years. There isn't anything.
Sorry to rant, I'm just really starting to wonder if we are going to make it.
Thanks again. Gotta run.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Somehow, some way, YOU are going to make it! If anyone can .... that's you.
In the mean time, we'll help keep you fed! There is always a good meal to be found here!
Amy, keep trying to educate your clients, and stick to your guns on pricing. You will slowly but surely cultivate a loyal and appreciative customer base.
And don't stop marketing anything, as long as it's at the right price. Stay open and explore different avenues. Diversify!
Goodness will prevail. Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Well, I hope it prevails, Nettie. Seems to have stopped prevailing somewhere in the 60's. Amy, would you do long distance contract work? If so, email your phone number. Maybe we can help.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Are there any colleges in your area? The facilities manager at one in our locale is authorized to spend up to $2000 on his corporate credit card for any work he needs, without the bid process, as long as it is to a woman or minority owned business. He is satisfied if the certification is in process, rather than complete.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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[ July 03, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Ron Helliar ]
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I guess from a few responses here my best bet for increased business is to make my wife CEO so we can get all the "minority/woman" contracts. (Hey, maybe get her recertified a preferred ethnicity too!) God knows there is only one of each of those in every community so Amy won't have any bidding competition there, eh?
There are no easy answers, even for sign veterans. All the the usual bromides are still true, as stated here. Do good work, do it on time, network in your community, advertise, and pray. Of course, a lot of this doesn't help when you need work right now. Economy sucks right now, at least here it does. Keep pluggin'
[ June 19, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: David Wright ]
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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It is more a matter of growing than not getting the job. Believe him... in his words about (People will look for your service before you have to look for the people!)
We all have a plate or two on the table to feed. And I don't believe the matter is a (Woman against a Guy.) "Business is Business"
The one thing I have learned is to GET OUT OF THE NEIGHBOURHOOD if there is to many cats in the Kitchen.. There is somemore food in another corner
[ June 19, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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I know your situation all too well. Just this morning, I went with another sign guy to take a look at development signs for refurb and replace. (potential co-op) It's an upscale development, all foam signs and they look aweful!
This sign guy is a stickie master and doesn't do sandblasted stuff. Got my name by referal, so he wants to do the refurbs and for me to provide him with the new finished signs.
Once I saw the existing signs, I immediately knew what we were up against. Low ballin'... The writing was on the wall. We would be working for a cheapie. The existing signs wouldn't be in the shape they are in now, had they paid the price originally, for quality workmanship.
Honestly, I don't put much energy into housing development projects unless I KNOW who I'm working for. They usually let the job to the lowest bidder or a friend. My price is always high and so are my standards. They are not concerned about quality, they just want the job done at the lowest price! Even if I chose to put myself into their mindset, I still have to eat! If I'm gonna work for nothing, I may as well go on a fishing vacation and eat sushi for a week! At least I'll enjoy myself instead of beating my head against the wall, eating beans and rice.
Over a decade ago, we were getting $55-$75/sf for sandblast cedar signs. Cost of goods have certainly increased, but like Pierre said, some folks insist on screwing up the value in our market. Possibly, they are hungry or they just don't know any better.
Someone wise, once told me, 'don't ever leave money sitting on the table.' (Don't low ball your price.) 27sf x $30./sf = $810.00 -- @ $55./sf = $1485.00 a difference of $675.00. That's a lot of money on the table! Downright stupid, IMO!
I've lost my fair share of clients, to other low ballin' sign shops. At first, I was devistated, but anymore it's water off a ducks back. I've come to realize that I can't 'afford' to work for less. Let 'em have it! I'll go work for someone else, who's paying MY price...
I also have a problem giving a discount for quantity. I have an established rate, they each require the same amount of time and effort, my cost of goods is the same, why should I lower my profit margin?
When I have worked for developments, I've dealt with the contractor/forman, they were only worried about their out of pocket. They bid the entire project, not as seperate intities. Giving them a discount only put more "MONEY" in their pocket and I'm doing all of the work. Huh?
I guess what I'm trying to say Amy, is you can't afford to work for less than your established rate. Your quality and service speaks for itself. Put your positive energy towards seeking out those who will appreciate what you do and are willing to pay the price. Don't dwell on the negative aspects of the things you can not control.
You don't have to stop bidding on these jobs, go ahead and give them your fair price, keep your name on the list. I don't win bids for huge project jobs anymore, BUT ---> they do call ME when they want something special and they already know I don't work cheap! Interesting, eh?
I wouldn't give up the stickie end of things either. If nothing else, it keeps me in bread and butter and an occasional steak dinner.
Keep your chin up Girl! I believe you have a purpose in this business and it's more than obvious, you love what you do.
((((.AMY.))))
I'm sending positive energy your way!
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Hang in there Amy! Got the lowballers here too and when one "work-for-nothing" signshop goes out of business, another takes it's place. We have had three shops fold up here since we started three and a half years ago. All were giving the work away.
But, thankfully, a few folks want top quality and service. I believe you provide both. Hey..and you have insurance! I don't see how those $30sqft folks can operate a legitimate business, pay their bills (including insurance) put out quality work, and survive working for chicken feed. This ain't Red China ya know.
You might have to get out and "beat the bushes" for a while but there's more good jobs right around the corner.
I'll give you a 99 44/00% guarantee those bargain signs will look really junky.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Wow!, long distance contract work for Pierre... go for it, sounds like a little apprenticeship benefits may even add to your already developed talents.
posted
Well I dont know about Amy but you guys have convinced me to get that sex change operation. If I knew I could get more work as a woman I'd have done it years ago.
Now Im stressing over how big my boobs should be. Will bigger boobs get me bigger contracts? What if I learn to speak another language? Good luck guys.. I'm off to Victorias Secret!
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Hey Bob, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Just like working with any other government agency. Want something for nothing and it all works out in their best interest. If you don't provide bids through MBE when requested you get dumped. I'm trying but in my one request for a bid through them it was something that was impossible for me to be competitive on.
I think I'll just call it a day! I'm tired.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Not being in the sign business ourselves, this might be such an obvious suggestion that no one else has mentioned it because just because it is a regular part of the business, like I said I don't know how sign people go about procurring their work. You might try checking around your area to see which architects design most of the schools and other government type buildings, as they are the buildings with the highest requirements for women and minority business involvement. The correct pitch to the architect will get you on the specified vendor list for a lot of diffrent jobs. As a specified vendor all the general contractors bidding on the jobs are required to use you on the job. Also being able to supply both the signage as well as the interior graphics (ie the plaques that have the room number and persons name, and possibly other lettering like cafeteria on the wall in the cafeteria) can give you a leg up on the competion.
I would also look into what general contractors are building these type buildings and pitch to them also, emphazing (damn I can't spell tonight) your ability to turn out a high quality job on time, signage being the last part of the job, they are always under the gun when they get to this part of the job so on time is important. I don't know about other parts of the country but the general contractors in Houston have full discrection on which minority owned businesses they want to use as long as they meet the required percentage of the dollar amount of the job. They need smaller dollar parts of the job bid by women to make sure they can cover their requirements.
I hope some small part of this rambling response is helpful!
quote:Originally posted by Bob Stephens: If I knew I could get more work as a woman I'd have done it years ago.
Bob, it ain't all it's cracked up to be. There are still an enormous amount of men who try to avoid hiring a woman signmaker. They're polite enough to waste our time by talking to us, but they only "let us in because we're cute" and then they hire a man because their wife would get jealous or that's a man's job or some other caveman theory.
On a lighter note, if you do get the operation are you getting plastic surgery too or should we just image that face on a giant set of hooters?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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WEELLLL its a wunerful day in the neiborhood.....IAM IN AGRREMENT WITH BOB ROCHON AND DAVID....this business is full of crow magnons, who have less brains then a rat!!!! and all of em think or were told of all the big money in signs!!!! SURE there is....but those makin big money HAVE TALENT FOR THE TRADE, been workin at it most of their lifes. these dorks(and ive seen a bunch)think that they all will do like McDonalds....if the sell cheap and alot....boy are they in for a suprise!!! i used to get all upset when i saw a new place go in...now i just laugh. it wont last long.... as for agreein with david....aint this economy the greatest????? more people outa work now then there was in the last bush reign. suppose the people will wake up SOON?
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Chris I'm going for the whole package. Thinking maybe a Hillary Clinton face on an Arnold Swartzeneger body. Then its off to Jerry Springer and hopefully Oprah.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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Geez, OP. I hope they wake up in time to vote him back IN!!
heh.................
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Im confused Old paint..."CROW magnons" were they a Native American tribe or something to do with ravens or roosters?
Could those inflated unemployment figures have anything to do with the huge influx of illegal aliens into the country?......reckon some of them are makin signs too?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Geez. Here we go! He insulted OP's spelling!
heh...............
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Hi Amy, I really understand your dilemma...we have several shops around us that will underbid jobs, but so far we may be about the same and even cheaper in routed prices than the other shops in area. We charge $70 per sq.ft. and some in St. Louis charge 90 and up. But so far we feel we still are fair without being too pricy. When customers come pricing and you can usually tell them apart, I always explain that when they are pricing they should ask certain questions, like; 1. Ask all shops what weight of HDU 2. What type of paints, how many coats, primers etc, explaining some of the procedures so they understand their product. 3. See pictures of their work, and show them yours. 4. How long have the shops been routing or sandblasting signs, or in the business all together. I think it has helped when we do that, although they see our samples vs. others and feel pretty confident. Besides how many good samples can this guy have already? Beat him at his own game...and yes, go after the big companys, we have a property mgmt. customer who owns at least 50 different places, we can always count on him. And yes, service is THE MOST IMPORTANT... we had to redo some powder coated signs, and even though we didnt powder coat it, we ate the job and redid it. He promised us he would bring us lots more work because of that and boy did he! Hang in there, dont lower your prices, he cant last too long, remember "You get what you pay for!" Good Luck Kathy other half of TomKat!
-------------------- Tom & Kathy Durham House Springs, MO Posts: 654 | From: House Springs, MO | Registered: Apr 1999
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I have to agree with Stephen (about 10 or 15 posts up)
quote:GET OUT OF THE NEIGHBOURHOOD if there is to many cats in the Kitchen.. There is somemore food in another corner
I live out in the country..have 3 medium sized towns close by..BUT my main work comes from cities that are 15, 25, and 60 miles away. I drive all over the place to do what I do.
Hang in there Amy..you obviously love your work...don't give up!!!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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I've known 5 women that ran busy sign shops, I worked for 4 of them, one for 2 years. I'm about positive that she wasn't part of any program. Probably the same for the others. The longer term one was featured in SC magazine.
I'm trying to figure out why they were consistently working. Most had some kind of niche market, none ran big companies that put up huge backlit signs. Two would be considered letterheads, all were punctual.
I'm wondering if it's easier for people to trust women, I mean isn't the image of the huckster used car salesperson always a man?
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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I was lettering a police car the other day, and one of the workers in the bay came up to me and commented, "Woa, the last time a sign lady put a knife against my truck like that, she cut right into it! I had to get it repainted!"
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