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The last few signs I have done were either between or applied to 4"x4" posts. All the local home improvement shops have are pressure treated of the fencing PVC type.
Every post we get we buy and then let dry for several days before painting. No problems painting but they twist and warp so bad they look awful and make installations a pain. I don't see where wrapping them with anything would help because the wrap will end up twisting and or falling off as well I believe.
So, are there other types of wood posts that aren't pressure treated or are less prone to warping? If so, where can I find them. Our local hardware or lumberyards don't seem to have squat!!
Thanks in advance.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Check into recycled plastic lumber. It is supposed to never warp or crack. Check www.plasteak.com or there are probably other companies that carry them.
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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-------------------- Mario G. Lafreniere (Fergie) J&N Signs Winter did show up! Posts: 1257 | From: Chapleau, Ontario | Registered: Jun 1999
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-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Amy, other than brick, I don't know. Your humidity is high also. If possible buy some PT posts and let them cure for a few months. I know you must have cypress availabe as we do. DON'T let anyone talk you into that. Cypress (at least what we have now)will last above ground much longer than pine, but decay quickly if it even touches the ground. I have thoughtabout T.J.'s idea. It is supposed to be really great for decks.
If you place a 2x4 treated runner tightly between your posts at or near the top and bottom of the sign it will eliminate twisting. But that is not always eye appealing.
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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well land use signs are my bag. i have used treated/ above ground (brownish) i have used treated/ below ground ( green )
i spray everthing so the paint doesnt pull uneven on the wood. but sometimes they just want to warp.
hand select is a pain in the butt but worth it in the long run
I have used vinyl fence post for you high sunlight area make sure they have uv inhibators so they dont look chalky after a while.
I have used ts steel (tube steel) raw and polished. The great thing about steel is you can reuse them quickly if you bury a plug with a tenon on it . pull the pins and take em some where else. I prefabricate mine with tabs to accomodate my mdo or other substrate. everything is made the same so i know all my signs will fit
finally i have used schedule 80 pvc round grey you can paint it the shape is pleasin and if you use the round clamps used for main power feeds you can adapt them readly to hangin signs. the other thing that is great is they are so cheap
4.00 per 10 feet and when you put them in cement the inner plug that forms keeps them plum . hope this helps
-------------------- sam kinnear stick um up signs redmond wa Posts: 93 | From: redmond wa | Registered: Jun 2003
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For the better sort of job we use a wood called ipe, which is sold under the proprietory name of Pau Lope. It's a hard, heavy dense tropical hardwood - rather like teak. Nice thing is that it is stable - doesn't warp or check and is very rot-resistant, and needs very little maintenance. We don't usually paint it; it ages to a lovely silver-grey on its own. But it's not cheap. Not even close. So it gets used on the high-dollar jobs where quality is expected and paid for.
With PT being phased out, there will likely be some creative alternatives coming along.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd use steel tubing on higher-end signs.It looks real good and stays put.Don't rule out aluminum either...costs a bit more but works quite well. Another advantage of metal is that it comes in a variety of shapes...rectangular, round, and extruded so it gives you many design options. I also use round wood fence posts, and round poles, if they fit into the overall design OK.
If you absolutely have to use PT 4x4, look at the ends. Try to pick out posts that have the round part of the grain in the middle. They may be less likely to warp on you, than ones that have a half circle on the side. What your looking at is the center of the tree, so you want it centered in the post.
Another thing... try using 4x6 instead of 4x4...they're usually more stable, and you can turn the 4x part in or out on your sign, giving a little more design flexibility........
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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What Jeff said. I use metal on most good signs these days. You can spray a nice finish on and I have a blacksmith friend make tabs, brackets and even put metal cast finials on top to dress 'em up. Concrete them in and they'll be there forever.
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A few years ago, I started using 4" Aluminum square tubing in place of wood. It costs about the same per foot as Redwood and is much less labor to work with. It usually comes in 24' lengths, which can be cut with a chop saw to three 8' pieces.
Aluminum can be painted using a vinyl wash (etching) primer and enamel topcoat (I use automotive acrylic enamels if I do not have them powder coated). Eastern Metal Supply (800/996-6161) may deliver in your area, if not, check your local metal suppliers and fabrication shops. I buy cast Aluminum ball caps from King Architectural metals (800/542-2379). King ships the same day and the prices are reasonable. Their catalogue is full of all kinds of Aluminum and steel decorative elements that can be used on signage.
You can buy all kinds of Aluminum angles and channels that you can fabricate into the brackets you need for your faces. Aluminum costs more than steel but can be fabricated with normal wood working tools.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just had a customer get his own posts. He wanted cedar and I didn't know where to get them. He got them at a big lumberyard. Since then our Home Depot has started carrying them. We use cedar posts for all our horse fencing and where we are at, alot of it is swamp or highwater tables. The cedar was a pretty color and the customer was going to leave it natural. I have been having the same problem with finding good straight 4 x 4. Recently we did a sign for a barn building company. Their 4x4's were Prime grade A and even though they were wet, they at least didn't have knots and bark. On top of that they were only $1.00 more than Home Depots.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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The problem I have with metal is decorating the posts and stuff for installations. For example, how would you do the following with aluminum or steel? I don't weld.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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I really like David's (and anyone else who might have mentioned it) aluminum idea. I'm checking into that myself. We have had some success with using 4x6 PT and it is more stable than 4x4's. But, i have a couple of 4x6's in the shop now which are only good for making a ship's keel or rockers for a giant rocking chair. They're crooked as a dog's hind leg. When I bought them they were straight as a pin.
I would strongly advise against using western red cedar in Florida because not only will it rot because of ground contact, termites love it as well. For example, I just checked on a sign which needed repair. Someone had used huge western red cedar timbers for the posts. Termites had eaten one of them all the way up to 18'' above ground. Someone had later blocked up that side of the sign to keep it from falling over. I'm not saying that you can't use it for posts in some parts of the country. I make sandblasted signs with it. But it won't last anytime in contact with the ground here,
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I think I'm supposed to have a policy in the mail tomorrow for the insurance through Auto Owners. We'll see.
As for the layouts, the left was the one I proposed. They asked me to change it to the right version (I hated it!). Ended up putting "Mental Health" on one line and "Association" underneath. They wanted all three words to have the same size lettering. I still like the original better but I can't win them all!
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Amy, Your designs may lend themselves to a four inch aluminum post with decorations of high density foam. Your moldings could be cut/routed in long pieces, then mitered into short pieces to wrap the post. Finials are also available in HDU. I have never actually bonded HDU to aluminum, but I wouldn't hesitate to try. I would get advice on the adhesive, then screw AND glue.
I have used a lot of steel posts with cast iron decorations, such as rosettes, leaves/vines, finials, etc., but eventually they rust. An aluminum post with HDU decorations might work very well, completely avoiding all rust AND warp problems. Another idea: An aluminum post completely wrapped with decorated, routed, etc., HDU.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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This sign is in the ground with PT posts and yes I used HDU for the decorative pieces. This particular sign had two wood pieces that were routed out attached to the sides and then those sides were attached to the PT posts with screws.
I just don't understand how you would use aluminum in the same manner as you can wood. Like how would I have routed the groove where I inserted the sign?
I'll figure it out one day! Thanks for the advice.
[ June 13, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Good point, Amy. Fabrication is for sure more of a complication with aluminum when you're not welding. The routed groove could probably be replaced by aluminum channel if a channel size fits your panel. When we do this we punch holes in the channel and 'plug weld' to the post, so the welds aren't visible, but the same spots could have screws instead of welds. Counter sink the holes so a flat head screw will seat flush and allow the panel edge to seat into the channel. There are metal-drilling flathead screws available (with little drill bits on the points). Attachment to the sign, of course, would be through the leg flanges of the channel.
Alternately, you could use aluminum angle on both sides of the panel, in place of the channel. Screw heads would be visible, but again, could be countersunk flush.
It would not be impossible to cut or rout a hole in the wall of the aluminum post to accept the panel edge. Careful sabre saw work on the vertical cuts would minimize any unevenness at the inside corner formed where the panel enters the hole. Use a 20-teeth-per-inch wood blade (Sears), and follow up with filing. Or, hide the joint with small aluminum angle that you've prepainted, attaching it with VHB tape or silicone.
Hopefully what you've already done will work out just fine.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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