posted
Recently, I made couple of signs for a long time customer who has recently bought a race track. I gave him a very finished layout for the artwork and he approved it....no problem.
Recently, I saw the guy driving a new pickup truck, all vinyled up to promote his track and on the back I noticed a printed decal / sticker of the design I'd drawn! And now, to add insult to injury, I am seeing the design in all of the track press releases and media. As far as I can tell, someone scanned the artwork and has gone full tilt with it as the @#$^ing track logo!
Since finding out about this, I have changed my invoices, adding a "discalimer" about any other use of artwork I come up with. I have had a few instances in the past on a somewhat smaller scale, but this one is just ****ing me off to no end! What makes it even worse is now people come up to me and COMPLIMENT THE NICE DESIGN. Jeezus, thanks!
I have a long history and a well know art style in the racing community. EVERYONE knows who created the "LOGO".
If anyone else has had to deal with a similar situation, I would welcome any comments. I don't know how copywrite and creative licensing work After 25 years as an artist, and the last 12 as a painter, I feel violated by this.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Recently, a sign man took a bizz owner to court and WON! The bizz owner allowed another sign dude to use the artwork to make a sign at a cheaper price.
So the bizz owner paid twice. And it stopped a lot of theeving among the few who would do anything to get a check.
dotn know all the details but it worked.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I guess it's court time. Now I just gotta find a lawyer, get a date , and kick some butt.
Easier said than done.
After all the years of being so closely asssociated with racing in this area, I'm sure in the small town where I live, there will be a lot of backlash from such a move.
I have been trying to burn bridges with this group for a while. As many of we Letterville residents know, race cars are pretty much a money pit. I guess this will be the big blaze of them all. May as well make it one hell of a weenie roast!
Besides, I'm sick of watching my artwork get destroyed.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Have you spoken with your long time customer? You should, you know. Tell him how you feel, calmly, and show him, that what he has done is wrong.
Now remember, logo design cost far more than just a sign. He is using *your* design for printed media, vehicle advertisement, and more that you probibly don't know of.
Do you have the original designs? Is the original design signed? Did anyone see the design *before* you submitted it? Do you have the *original* design on your computer?
Show your long time customer the error of his ways!
Most all of us had this problem before. How you choose to resolve this is your business. If you have all your "ducks" lined up in a row, you should have no problem proving your case in a small claims court, without procuring a lawyer.
^^-in the heart of gold country... Richard Bustamante Nevada City, California www.signsinthepines.com
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
What Sign Program do you use. If you are using Signlab It Time dates the day the design was first saved. I think Flexi does this also. That would be all the proof you need.. What the race track owner has done is a Copyrite infringment and courts really side with the designers. I feel for you. I know how you feel. I hate people like that. The owners and the LOW Life sign shop that did it.
posted
We've only had this happen to us twice--the first time we did not have the disclaier on the design. So, I wrote letters to the sign company who reproduced the sign and to the person who ordered the sign. After all, we drove two hours one way to present the design and made changes and drove another two hours to present the sign again. (we must have had a lot of time on our hands back then) The second time, there was a disclaimer and when the customer wanted to keep the design, I told him sure. He also wanted a lighted sign which we decided was not an area we would like to make signs in any longer. I did not give him permission to use our design, but I still did the dumb a** thing & left it with him. Perhaps after reading this, I will follow thru and bill him for the design. Good luck with this. Be sure to keep us posted! I think this has happened to a lot of us.
posted
This is a subject I am passionate about. I do not believe in copywrites for stuff my firm was paid to create. If you were paid to create the logo, you have nothing to complain about. Perhaps you didn't charge because they were a long term customer. If that's the case, a serious conversation would be in order, and some back charges. You are correct about backlash in a small town....is it worth it?
I firmly believe my repeat business should be earned not forced by some copywrite. People have come to me very upset because they are locked in with my competitor by such copywrite laws. When we are paid to design a logo, my customer leaves with the logo in hand on a burned CD with a custom label on it reminding them where it came from.
I think most of all an occurance like this hurts our pride or ego. It's one that we lost. We do have to view it seriously or we don't learn from it. But, we can't win em all. Hope this helps.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I agree that calmly speaking with the customer should be plan A. If that doesn't work, and you want to pursue it, small claims seems to be a reasonable route. Lawyers can be $100/hour...and those hours can add up pretty fast.
But, that being said, taking a chance on being blackballed in a small town is something to avoid if possible. Which brings you back to plan A.
posted
I can relate to this, but I believe there is a chance that your customer has no clue how you feel, and how you see this situation. If you can manage to explain the facts to him calmly, he might be surprised to find out that he didn't have the right to use your design. You can save that relationship AND make your point, maybe even get paid. I find that surprisingly many business owners are completely ignorant about this issue. Good luck.
Since your work is getting a lot of press, make the most of it by including this logo in YOUR advertising. "We designed the logo for such and such," and make sure every one that counts in your community gets sent an e-mail describing your services and creative abilities.
It seems to me you would get more out of the situation that way than trying to protect your work.
You are in good company. I worked for Activ-Ad signs in Bloomington for Bud Johnson. His father was Hinie Johnson and wrote magazine articles for SIGNS OF THE TIMES magazine as "The Old Pro", and has a place in the American Sign Museum.
The story I was told by his son Bud Johnson, my old boss and mentor, is that Hinie lettered a sign for a local restaurant, Steak & Shake, which later became a franchise and that same "logo" sign is used to this day. Hinie never got a cent more than the sign he made.
Hinie made good use of the fact he created the logo, which kept him very busy. He died pretty much broke.
They are both gone now. I think they had the right idea. Be creative, make the most out of what success you achieve, and it wont tear you up inside. Its best to have a happy heart. Its healthy to have a happy heart. Put this behind you and make a good thing happen out of this situation.
posted
Thank you all for your posts. Seems like we all have heard this story before.
Richard, I did make a few attempts to contact the customer about this, but we are both in our busiest time of year and have not been able to get together on this. I do have all the original art. It was created in CorelDraw and the files are dated. A great many people saw the design when I first presented it. The track owner has always run this kind of stuff thru a pipeline to get opinions.
Rick, The initial design was for a couple of 4x4 signs, not a logo. I had hand drawn and scanned 2 cartoons and incorporated it into the sign design. I also created a website banner from the file later to show that I could also help them out with the internet stuff. As far as I can tell, the person maintaining the website was the one directly responsible for this going to the point of becoming a logo. (She is the track owner's new girlfriend to boot.)
I agree wholeheartedly that repeat business is earned. In 12 years of signing, I have had a steady flow of repeat customers and a good reputation for the quality and expediancy of my work.
Dave, Heck, I don't even advertise. Word of mouth keeps me busy enough, and for that I have always been thankful. I agree with you on how to "brag up" the designs being a good way to handle this. Been doing it for years. I have a very extensive portfolio which includes just about everyting you could think of from logo designs to simple signs, superhero drawings to custom bikes, boat lettering to race cars. Often new customers see something in it that makes them say "You did that?" and I just nod and say "yup". The powers that be in this area know my work well and I'm not too concerned about backlash. I'm in pretty good standing in the community.
Most everyone uses the word "calmly" about approachng the customer on this. Believe me, I have known this person for 12 years and I have no reason to believe this will be a calm discussion on his part. Trust me on this one.
I do have a customer who is a patent and copywrite lawyer and will be contacting him tomorrow morning. I just feel that this sort of thing goes on too often in this industry and needs to be address more thoroughly for the benefit of all the other Letterheads out there.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Take a deep breath & consider it a lesson learned.
Life s too short to be mad. Enjoy it instead.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ray, would you keep us posted on how this comes out? Also, I'm a little confused, you say you did a very finished layout, you also say you did some signs for him. Was that layout incorporated in those signs?
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I got a chance to catch up with my attorney friend last night while making a delivery. We talked informally for about 20 minutes.
I showed him a revamped copy of my invoice form which now has the following disclaimer on the bottom...
"Original designs are copywrite Brushwood Studios for immediate use only. Any other use of artwork (logos, advertising, etc.) should not be done without permission of Brushwood Studios."
He agreed that the wording of the disclaimer should cover future problems like this one.
George, The original order was only for two signs back in February. I drew up a couple of cartoon cars and scanned them into my PC, then added some typestyle ideas in Corel. They were approved and completed a week later.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I used to tell folks, "Although imitation is the most sincere form of flattery,it does nothing for my bank account,"
The disclaimer should be an industry standard on just about all our paperwork, for obvious reasons!
Back in the day, (before puters) I was told to send all designs to myself, in the mail. Then upon receiving them, to put them unopened, in the client's folder just in case. The reality is, that anybody could reset the date on their puter and save the file in a dishonorable fashion, however, altering an official postmark is really frowned upon.
I hope you get some satisfaction in this situation and if done right, you'll set a precedent with other like-minded individuals.
Are any of your friends in the news media? You could always have them do an article/interview on/with you, and in the interview mention this situation and of course, use it for your own chance to reclaim your design publicly and make him look like the fool he is...prolly cheaper than a lawyer.
I was raised up with this one...the best revenge is success!
posted
Hey Ray, First, relax. I don't think your customer is "ripping you off" intentionally; he probably isn't aware that he's crossed a line.
I have some simple suggestions.
The best approach, as already posted, is to go and talk to your customer. He probably doesn't realize that its not OK to go use your designs in way you didn't intend, and in ways you're not being compensated for.
He knows that track and car sponsors go to a LOT of trouble to spell out exactly how their logos are used on cars, helmets, pit walls, etc, so this is not a new concept to him. Its just that he doesn't see his (your) "cartoons" as being "a logo".
The other suggestion is to to simply mail him a bill. Its the first thing you need to before you can take him to court. Figure out what you'd charge him for the rights to use the pictures in whatever way. You could pull a number from the Sign Contractors Price Guide ($294) for a detailed color art spot. I cite that price because its low enough to not make him scream, but its an extra bit of cash for you. You can even photocopy the page and circle the ammount and mail it along with the bill so it doesn't look like you've "made up" the ammount.
Rick will point out, correctly, that you could charge quite a bit more for a "logo" than for a bit of "spot artwork." I haven't seen this image, so I don't know. You know what you would "normally" charge for this work.
The disclaimer copy on your invoice doesn't give you any more, or any fewer, rights of protection. Your artwork is copyrighted when you created it. You don't need to "do" anything to protect it. The legal copy is only useful to point out to the customer. Its sort of like signs telling people not to dump trash -- the absence of the sign doesn't mean its suddenly OK to dump trash there. The absence of your legal notice doesn't suddenly give your client the right to use your work without compensating you for the use.
Rick Beisiegel said he's passionate about not charging for "copywrites for stuff my firm was paid to create". His passion is his business; its not mine. It seems to me that you were paid to create some art for TWO signs. your customer did not pay you to create art for decals, trucks, banners, website, and every other thing.
So, your copyright protections are still in place. The easiest thing to do is to get a small ammount of money from the customer to pay for "additional uses of the art".
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Ray, It's happened to all of us at some time or the other and that doesn't make it right or help ease to fustration of having to deal with someone that may have done this without realizing they are in the wrong. Guess it will depend on how your client handles it after you confront his mistake. Before I used a copyright disclaimer on my invoices I too was ripped off several times but after adding the phrase that the 'artwork, design and/or layout' was my property until it was paid for and a written release was issued it happened a lot less. Still it did happen a couple times and the loss of time for a day in court wasn't enough to compensate for the few dollars that may have been gained by a law suit (the lawyers are always the winners). So now, for every new client, we have a discussion on what they are or are not entitled to after the job goes out the door. They are told up front that if the job requires more than just a simple layout of text that any artwork we create cannot copied and used by them for anything. If they like our design we will release the art as a stand alone logo or we can create a logo package for X dollars (depending on the complexity of the job). NO WORK is started until a deposit is made for sketches/ideas, if you take control of the situation up front then the client has very little chance of messing over you. No other business will allow you to carry away valuable merchandise without some form of security assuring them you will pay for it. One of the guys that ripped off one of my layouts many years ago, was so peaved when I confronted him about it that he decided to purchase a vinyl lettering system and "put that S.O.B. out of business" well, he soon found out that the design is what makes a sign, not just letters stuck on a board, he lost several thousand dollars on equipment and materials and I never lost a job to him that I would have wanted anyway.
So, I think that you may be better off changing the way you approach every new job than trying to stir too much poop in a small town. As several others have similarily stated 'life's too short to stay upset over other people's ignorance'.
-------------------- Larry
Elliott Design McLemoresville, Tn.
If you can't find the time to do it right, where you gonna find the time to do it over? Posts: 486 | From: McLemoresville, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If you got paid for producing that design for that customer in any form, the design belongs to him. Unless you copyrite it first before even selling it to him. I would say you need to take advantage of the advertisement, and forget the whole thing. Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
There is one sure fire way to never be copied...Never do anything!
It sounds as tho you are resonably successful and I would assume you are not "copied" everyday, so when the occassional rip off comes look at it and see if you have protected your self...if you have go for the gold...if not take the adulation others are paying you and move on...
It's too easy to get bitter and cynical in this trade...('ve seen too many that have)...I've even done it a few times myself & frankly it just aint worth my time anymore to be upset.
Now steal one of my tools and I'll hand you your head.
Good luck in the future...I really do understand the frustration!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Bill wrote: >>If you got paid for producing that design for that customer in any form, the design belongs to him.<<
This is NOT TRUE. Bill is making a common error, confusing "work for hire" with "work contracted."
Work for hire is really another way of saying you're an _employee_. For instance, work you do as an _employee_ of XYZ Sign Co. belongs to your employer.
Design work you do for a customer belongs to you. Being hired by a customer doesn't make you an employee.
Your customer is only contracting to buy certain, specific, rights to use the design. In the case of this message thread, your customer bought the rights to the design to be used on the two signs you created.
Another way this works, is if you pinstripe somebody's car, they get the "rights" to the design while its on their car. They do NOT have the rights to then copy the stripe design and sell the same design on a clip-art disk to other people.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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With all due respect, I would disagree with you. I have competitors who use this reasoning to "lock" clients into a contract or agreement. That is not what talent is all about. Too many designers are full of themselves. Here, we charge for design time. When our customer leaves, I have a check, and they own a logo. Ask anybody who is our customer. Given the choice, and fully understanding the whole "copywrite logo" idea is essential to educating our customer. Copywrite logos costs you more than you will ever know. Much better it is to earn their repeat business than to weld them to a contract that makes them feel uncomfortable. No offense, but that is my take on it.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Rick, I'm talking about what the law allows. In the original post, the artist had his work used in ways he didn't intend. The client TOOK rights the artist didn't assign.
You're talking about what rights you wish to GIVE your customers. That mean YOU, not the customer, is making the choice about what rights the customer has purchased.
Bill's post made it sound like "the customer paid for it so they own all rights to it". This is not correct according to my understanding of copyright law in the USA.
Designers need to understand the law, so they can CHOOSE what rights to assign with the work. I agree that your approach can be a great way to simplify things, but it isn't the only way to sell rights.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I'm not putting you down in anyway so dont take it like that, but I remember seeing your truck and there wasnt an original thought on it. So to be copied isnt a bad thing... it's all about the interpetation.
Look at blues music. Every man, woman and child has copped Robert Johnson's shuffle but it's how they play it that makes it special. You dont have to be a player to know the difference between BB King and Stevie Ray Vaughan when you hear them hit the same lick.
Do it your way, and if you get copied - take it as a compliment. If you copy someone else, put a twist on it and make it your own.
However what you said - wasnt being copied, it was being stolen from. Big difference. Copyright, disclaimer, and get it signed everytime. Just a signature will intimidate most people.
posted
I have just read this thread and something odd popped out at me. Half of you are refering to "copywrite" and the other half to "copyright" Which one is right! Surely the US and international lawmakers have come to an agreement on this.
Several years ago I got some advise from a lawyer on regarding what to put on a design to solidify your claim of copyright (thats the way I have always spelled it). He told me a small c inside a circle with the year of copyright following it and the name of the person/business claiming copyright following that would impress any judge (in Canada anyway). I have been doing that for years along with a sentence claiming all rights to the design. I have only been ripped once that I am aware of. Potential client (automotive repair shop) took my design to another signmaker and she duplicated it exactly on the backlit fascia sign I had bid on. Yes, she likely did it for less money than I was asking for. I took the approach life is to short to get worked up about it. I did however convince another tenant in the same plaza to get her to redo a sign that she had done a bad job on. She will never know why she had to do that one twice!
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Could you give an example of what that looks like? I am not beyond copyrighting somthing until the bill is paid, or to keep my design from being used as an example for another artist, (pirate).
[ June 16, 2003, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Been a little busy and am just catching up tonight...
Bill wrote... If you got paid for producing that design for that customer in any form, the design belongs to him.
Bill, the designs were intended for signs only, since that is all the the customer asked for. Although the track had a logo already, I was never shown it and came up with a design from scratch. I was only paid for the signage, not for the design.
Scooter and Rick... The points you both make are very powerful as to both the legal aspects and the understanding of the customer of the differences between sign design and logotype. As Chuck mentioned, he uses a circled C with a year along with his signature. I have also done so in the past, and the customers have always understood it. In this case, I did not place the circled C simply because I never expected the original logo to be scrapped for my artwok instead.
Bill, I don't use the copywrite as a "lock" like some companies do, but more as a footnote. In this day and age with all the digital imaging, cameras and scanners around, there are many more people able to pirate artwork. The days of artists being able to photo edit with a computer exclusively are long gone, sadly. I am a commercial art graduate and was schooled in the value of creative license early on. Sign artists are exactly that...ARTISTS. As such, the same rules apply for signers as any design house. To bill for a design and be paid is fine, but in this situation, the bill was only for signage. The design has since been used elsewhere thru nothing less than theft. The legal term most associated with it is plagurism.
I appreciate all the comments and concerns that this post has generated. As far as things look, as many of you have stated, learning and moving on seems to be the best bet. Needless to say, this customer won't be getting services here in the future, but I hope this discussion has helped everyone in one way or another. Thanks
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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