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I live in a small rural county in Southern Florida. A fishing community, population during the off season of about 34,000, most business survives on the tourist trade in the winter months.
There are 4 sign shops in the county, all are vinyl shops. They offer no graphic design services, no more then basic lettering with maybe a one color graphic on a sign.
Twenty years ago I got out of the sign trade after about a ten year run. (Hand lettering, sand blasting, airbrushing and pinstriping.) As I said before I worked in the digital graphic arts and photo restoration business for the past 20 years and am now back home wanting to open a sign shop.
An acquaintance of mine, not really a friend, but someone I know and talk with when ever we run into one another, is the owner of the busiest sign shop in town.
For the past 15 years he has been re-doing a lot of signs I designed and painted when I was in business. He has not changed the designs I made, he just applies vinyl using my designs. (I have no problem with that at all. If I was in his place I might have done the same thing.)
I stopped in his shop the other day to tell him I was going to open my own shop and tell him I would send jobs his way and hope he would do the same for me.
He was with a customer and was showing the customer his portfolio. They were discussing a sign job at the front counter and I over heard their conversation.
The shop owner was showing pictures of signs I designed and telling the customer he designed these sign years ago.
After the customer left, I made some small talk and went home and got my old portfolio and went back to my buddies shop.
I ask to see his portfolio and pointed out to my "buddy" signs I designed and told him I designed them and showed him the pictures in my portfolio.
He said he thought another sign painter, my mentor, had designed them and sense my mentor was dead he saw no harm in claming the designs as his own. Plus he said that sense he had been re-doing them for so long and I didn't have a shop they really were his signs now anyway.
I agree, they are his jobs but they are still my designs.
I never did tell him that in August I was opening a shop that would offer vinyl signs, digital graphics, hand lettering, airbrushing, sand blasting, vehicle graphics and pinstriping.
My dilemma is this, should I tell him about my plans or just surprise the hell out of him?
-------------------- Steve Levitt Signs Of All Kinds Okeechobee, Fl. 34974 Posts: 64 | From: Okeechobee, Florida | Registered: May 2003
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I say surprise the hell out of him. If we refurbish a sign which was not ours in the beginning, we do not take pride in placing that in our portfolio & claiming it as ours. . .What a skunk! Give 'em hell! After your additional years of experience, even you can blow away your previous designs he now is claiming. Good luck!
-------------------- Lauri Goretski Custom Murals N6334 HWY 107 TOMAHAWK WI 54487 CustomMurals1@aol.com Posts: 127 | From: Tomahawk Wi | Registered: Apr 2003
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i guess it depends on whether or not you want friendly competition...if you blindside him he might think you've been in his shop checking out his stuff to see what you need to buy etc. i personally would be up front if you keep having conversations with him on a regular basis but that's just me. i would venture to say i don't think after you tell him you guys will be sharing lunches together...he may even be hostile...but hey that's life in america...it's a free country. my best friend works at my competitors shop...has been there for 16 or 17 years, we've never had any issues...she's been over and seen things i was working on and has said, "oh we used to do their stuff."....whether or not she runs and tells her boss is up to her...we don't let it effect our friendship though. competitors don't have to be arch enemies. i have never tried to steal an account away from my competitor by saying i can undercut or talk badly about them. i won't even approach an account that i know someone else has. but if that account calls me and is not satisfied with who they are dealing with then i will gladly meet with them and bid on a job. i know some will say that is not good business sense but i have a different outlook on it...i can honestly say i can see any of competitors on the street and be able to smile and wave...hope they feel the same way but if they don't that's their problem not mine.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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That isn't the kind of guy I would pal around with and wouldn't feel any obligation to give him the heads up. Sounds like he is relying on the previous players being out of the picture. In a small town the truth will catch up to him. And it won't be pretty.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with Karyn, tell him. But.....I don't think this guy is a trustworthy soul. You heard him tell a bald faced lie. This says a lot about his character. He was promoting himself and his business in a dishonorable manner.
Don't be surprised if he handles the truth recklessly after you open your shop. Or it could work out well, who knows.
If you tell him at least you will know YOU did the right thing. Good luck with your new shop.
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Hey Steve! It seems to me INTEGRITY is the key word here. Your actions with this fella have shown that you have some and his actions show none. You designed signs for your previous employer, if he were still around today what would he say about your work? Could you use him as a reference? Would'nt he say, "Yes, Steve worked for me X no. of years and designed and produced many of our signs." In actuality when you work for someone else the work you provide for them is "theirs", but that still does NOT give the other guy the right to say they're HIS! What did he have to do with any of it...just because he was friends with your former employer...? How dare anyone claim the art work of someone else as their own! I would be ashamed to do so. Maintain a very business like approach, don't be more polite than you've already been, and send him a formal business letter stating that you are opening your own business and any futher breach of copy right or design claiming, etc. will result in a law suit. Take charge or your porperty from here on out, Bro. This guy has been "using" you and only a legal stance will stop him. Good luck an' happy sign biz to you!!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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I always make it a point if I didn't designed a sign. How embaresed I would be if I got caught my one of my sign buddies. I do a lot of work for truck body shops, I'll redo a repainted truck door or fender etc, I wil not sign the job after it's completed, because I didn't do the original job.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3932 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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Have your Grand Opening and make sure you have your old portfolio as well as the new one on hand for your clients.
Send him a handwritten invite to the opening and explain the difference of designing or copying something... Humble him to the point of knowing it is not nice to steal.....
But the main thing is have a Great Opening and I hope all goes well for you.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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That's a pequliar reaction on his part Steve - to say that since he has repainted them, they are now his to claim, even in the face of your challenge. I could understand him saying that they "seem" like his, or he "thinks" of them as his, however now that you're back in the game he'll be more forthright in his claims...but that's not that he did, that's not how he sees it.
Then again - if I got this right, you didnt tell him yet that you're reopening a shop, that may have made some difference. To know that, then look you in the face and not see anything wrong in his stance is combative. It dismisses you, and tells you he plans to keep doing it whenever it benefits him. Some pal. You better make your intentions clear, and also that you expect him to refrain from showing your portfolio as his. Once he has full disclorure from you, if he can't grasp where you're coming from then you may have an antagonistic situation on your hands. See what happens, good luck.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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There are a whole bunch of shops near me. I have never met any of the owners, and don't want to. Keeps things simple. My business is just that. I'd have nothing further to do with the gomer.
-------------------- this space for rent Posts: 130 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Apr 1999
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Surprise was my first reaction, but now I think I'll do as Stephen Daveau suggested and send him an invitation to my grand opening.
I agree, I worked for a shop and the signs I designed belonged to the shop but the designs will always be mine.
Yes, over the years I feel my design ability have improved a great deal. (I just wished my lettering and art work had a lot less rust on them!)
I ordered some pinstriping brushes last Monday and when they get here I plan on hours and hours and days and days and weeks and… etc., etc., etc. of practice, practice, practice!
Right now I'm rotating between lettering the alphabet and airbrushing on any and everything that will set still long enough to put paint on!
Thanks for your advice!
-------------------- Steve Levitt Signs Of All Kinds Okeechobee, Fl. 34974 Posts: 64 | From: Okeechobee, Florida | Registered: May 2003
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If you were under the employ of another shop when the signs in question were done, the sign belongs to the customer but the design belongs to the shop.
The designs belong to your former employer, not you. This does not relieve any of the scumbag burden your "pal" has. They weren't his, either.
There are no photos of any work done for any of my former employers in my portfolio. Any claim I had to anything ended at the door. Time and the passing of these people in no way grants me any retroactive claim to the work.
Maybe it is time to re-think your stance on this. You have no claim to anything done for another shop while your "buddy" has even less.
What I think you need to do is focus on doing your best and let the lowlife buddy hang himself. For you to bring this up with potential customers will make you look like a fool and seem like a case of one competitor badmouthing another.
Having been involved, at one time, with a long time feud with another sign painter, let me tell you from experience that no one "wins". Both of you will end up looking like dinks.
I probably wouldn't invite him to my open house but that's your call. His lack of talent will eventually come to the forefront while yours will show through.
"It is better to take one's own path though imperfect than the path of another's well made..." I forget who wrote that but I remember it from a Speedball Textbook. Must have made an impression having remembered it all these years...
I wish you the best in your future endeavor!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Thanks Bruce, I understand what you are saying and I guess I should have started this off with a little more detailed explanation.
My former employer, Brother-in-law now passed away, always took pictures of the work we did, he gave me my first portfolio with pictures of every sign I ever designed and painted myself saying that one day I would need it to show the quality of my work.
He never put anything I did, designed and painted into his portfolio and always referred to signs I designed and painted as, "Steve's" signs.
(Signs that we both worked on along with his went into his / the shop portfolio.)
When Harry, my brother-in-law took sick I helped my sister with the shop. When Harry died, I bought the shop from my sister and stayed in business for three years before closing the shop and taking my dream job.
I never intended to get into a pi_sing contest with him about the signs; I was hoping to have a working relationship with all the sign shops in the county.
I would never talk down about anyone's work as I feel that only brings down the quality of my work. (Harry always said, "If you look close at any sign you can find fault with it, if fault's what your looking for!")
I would also never tell a customer that he was using my designs, I would however put a picture of any sign I designed and painted into my portfolio and if ask I would say that when the sign /signs was hand lettered I did them, but another shop took over my accounts when I moved out of town.
I hope this explains a little more my position on "my signs."
-------------------- Steve Levitt Signs Of All Kinds Okeechobee, Fl. 34974 Posts: 64 | From: Okeechobee, Florida | Registered: May 2003
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Yes, Steve, that does put things in a different light. Thank you for clarifying the facts.
I would tell your "buddy" to "cease and desist" immediately. Do it face to face while handing him a letter stating the same. Face to face is better than letting someone else do it for you. Make yourself very clear that this will NOT be tolerated any longer.
I hope you will post pictures of your Grand Opening! I truly wish you the best in your endeavor!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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The delima is for HIM, not you. From the minute you make it known that you're opening a shop, he'll be nervous, angry, whatever. Let it remain his problem, even though he'll probably try to make it your problem too. Time is the issue here.
I like the sound of Karyn's approach.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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