Posted some questions on murals last week or so and got awesome replies back from you. I also researched the kind of art I would be doing ( ancient ruins and such) and visited many web sites on the topic of WALL MURALS. After all was gathered, I added up my costs and projected labor on the site and found concrete similarities with yours, web sites and my own quoting. I did my homework except for 1 thing ( being a new OWNER I need to learn this)....I didn't ask his budget. I went in there today in my ggod clothes and even put a little HUGO BOSS on - what the hell.
For a 14' x 61' cinder wall, I gave him an estimate (depending on severity of the graphic) of about 8,500 for a low and 18,900 for a high. High? High is what he thought I was after giving him the price and proceeded to pull out the QUOTE TO BEAT. Even with a quote like the one he pulled out, he needed to see my quote?????????? The quote was for $1,550!!!!!!!! All the restaurant owner has to do is paint the wall White first and then this guy comes and paints his 854 sq ft mural and make $1550????? The friggin paint is almost that much. So I IMMEDIATELY sum this guy up and say to him, "well I suppose the entrance sign quote is gonna be high too ( $1200 - 3 sheet MDO with paint and vinyl installed ). YEP! TOO HIGH!
What does the market bare here you ask??????? I now know.
As for asking a budget...I dont have a problem asking. Alot are intimidated but not me. I STILL have yet to get a honest answer. Their answer is usually preempted by a suspicious look followed by, "you tell me what my budget is". Like I'm gonna take their price and say SOLD. How do I get their budget price out of them? How do I sell these jobs without chasing Knickles all over the place. I went back to sulk and continue making some Corop. signs for the day.
How about a "Range" for the budget? And like everyone else says give them a tiered price. For generic (B&W) or your local lame smoke shop - it's $X.XX, for 2 color ... That should get them talking at least. FWIW
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
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He may have got a quote on a smaller mural, The other person's work might look amaturish, who knows? I'd stick by your guns and think about how Scooter would handle this. The time you spent dealing with this sales stuff is exactly why you've got to charge twice per hour what you expect to pay yourself. That's a BIG job, and there'll be others that go more productively.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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I occasionally get the suspicious look when asking their budget. Sometimes, I word the question: "Do you have a budget figure I should work this down into?", thereby implying (usually correctly) that I will need to find ways to trim to meet their projections.
Some untrusting people think you are going inflate the price of a sign to fill their available funds, however, the real world, especially for Letterhead types, is having to shoehorn a size 14EEE design and cost into a 6A price range.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5099 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think I would have to go by when the job is being done by the other guy and tell him just how much money he "left lying on the table" so-to-speak. He may not ever bid your rates on any future jobs but I'll bet he won't bid his give-away rates again either! He'll also probably kick himself a thousand times for being so cheap and "shall we say stupid!"
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Hi Corey, Too bad, he had an unrealistic idea of cost to begin with, and your competitor did too. Somebody's surely going to loose on that project. Either the owner isn't going to get nearly what he thought, or the painter is going to take an absolute bath on it.
You pose a very valid question - asking someone's budget seems intimidating till you realize that this scenario will only be repeated till you find a way to broach the subject early on in EVERY price negotiation. When I meet a client about a new job I start talking budget immediately, but I have a couple tricks and rehearsed speeches that make it completely natural and non-threatening to either party.
The rehearsed part has come with many years of speaking to clients and hearing their reactions. I've learned to blurt out as soon as possible "have you set a target budget for this project?". (The magic words). Followed, or preceeded by, something like "I can make signs in lots of different materials and techniques to fit your cost tolerance - for any given design I can propose multiple pricing scenarios to meet your goal". An a-la-carte menu if you will...
The trick part (also from experience) is that I already know approximately what this stuff is going to cost - I can start rattling off rule-of-thumb guidelines based on the sizes needed. "You need 3 of these and two of those in this size range, I can tell you right now the costs can run between $X and $Y, all the way up to $Z if you really want to make a landmark statement. Where do you need to be in that field?" ("There's no point in me proposing an $18,000 job if you only want to spend $1,500").
You do it in your own words of course, but it is an absolute necessity. If people look strange and think you're asking something unreasonable, then don't feel funny about excusing yourself from the bid - 'cuz they REALLY won't get the next part, where you tell them you'll need a design retainer up front to begin some layouts.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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yep....you aint missin nothin here. you did right and your prices are REAL! the $1550 is someone who will take 2-3 weeks to complete the job, will be done with acrylics, will have no longevity....and after its done ....he will wished he had some one who knew what they were doing........i had same thing a marina near here. 16'x 40' on a coragated metal building, the bottom of the 16' started at 25' high. i quoted him $4000....IF HE DID THE BLOCK OUT of the old sign. he went ballistic on me(while he was sittin in chair with a MARINE SHOP RATE IS $55 AN HOUR sign above the door) told me he didnt want to make a downpayment on my new car..... so i told him it wasnt a new car i was buyin but a SCARAAB RACIN BOAT!!!! knew i wasnt gona get that job!!! he did get signs up, couple 4x10 sheets of alumium bolted to the high spots on the building!!!!! screw em....they think they can get $55 a hour to change a spark plug, well iam at least worth THAT MUCH!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ouch, that is a tough lesson learned Cory. It is amazing how naiive the public is about pricing. Just remember that you are worth a decent living. If plumbers and electritions can make $75/hr +, then why shouldn't we be able to make the same. In all reality which profession takes more skill and training? Stand by your guns and count this as a lesson learned. You wasted some time, but you did not want to do the mural for that fellow cause he wasn't ever going to fork out a reasonable amount for it. Who knows, he may get a fantastic mural from from poor, starving artist out of it. Or maybe not. In any case get what you can from this, now you know how to approach this next time. Cheer up.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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If you look at major league baseball statistics, the guys with a lot of home runs or even guys with a lot of base hits also have a lot of strikeouts Keep swinging
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Nicely put George. Yeh, I saaw the other guys quote. I had the fax in my hand. The size was the same, no smaller. He has done murals in Calgary here, 1 or 2 I've seen. Can't knock the muralist except that he is a bstrd low baller. He probably lives and works in his '77 Station Wagon and laughs himself to sleep each night from the thought of screwing yet another true legit sign artists out of a fair priced professional job. Should complain, I know there are cheapos out there and artists that will hor themselves out that cheap. I just need to see 'em coming.......and ask their friggin budget! It's easy to see these guys low ballin with coro. and MDO but I still can't see (after buying paint, and labor) him making ANY $$$$. KAY SARAH SARAH!!!!
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Corey, In the rare occasion that the ultra-lowballing competitor does a super-duper good job, it hurts alot worse. But that's usually not the case.
Wish I had a nickel for every one I've lost to a lowballer. From my experience, the vast majority of the time, they get what they pay for.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Don't feel bab--I get low-balled in the Billboard and large sign stuff all the time. Best Western-a repaint of a job I originally built for 15,000, I quoted at 3750.00. Lowballer- 1000.00 even
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I don't have any experience as a sign painter but I can tell you a few tricks I used as new car sales person. I am going to think this over a bit and I'll reply with some word tracking for you later. There are two things that you can experiement with at the moment that work real well. The first is to always present two price options and ask which option they would like. Assume that they are going to hire you and move the discussion along. You are taking control of their decision to hire you and in return you give them control over how much they want to pay. Don't ask for the job, just ask which option they would like. The second thing is single out any ojections/concerns they may have and then remove them after you elimanate any other objections. like this: Let's say Mr X thinks your price is too high. You would say. "Other than the price is there anything else that would prevent you from using my service?" They'll more than likely say no. At that point you would go over again what they are getting for their money, go into detail about your services and the work you will do, and you could ask them about budget. When they give you the budget you would paraphrase and say: "So if i could get this price down to within your budget then you would hire my services?" Then the only job you have is to work out a new price if that is possible. You can also negotiate changes to the work that would get the job down into their price range. The key to a sale however is to really do a good interview with your prospective client. Sit down with them, ask them alot of questions(budget could be one), once you have a clear understanding of their needs you need to present your services to them. Explain to them exactly what you are going to do. It makes the services more tangible. This builds value. I am on my way to work so I don't have time to lay this one out but I will repost later a complete word track with questions to ask and things to say that may help. I will explain why I am asking and saying what I am and hopefully you can use these approacches to help sell your services. Hope that helps.
-------------------- Shane Mussche Sin Custom Graphics Hamilton Ontario Posts: 52 | From: Hamilton, Ontario | Registered: Jun 2002
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I've got the same problem around here Corey -- there are a couple of old timers who are charging old time prices. They're mostly retired, and i think they only take on work to supplement their pensions. (ie, they do it to keep their blood thinned out with vodka).
about the only thing you can do is wait for the guy to die. charging "two bits an hour" will probably accelerate that process..
its a shame -- with their talent and experience they ought to be charging MORE.
on the bright side, you've learned how to bid this sort of job. bidding and other "office work" is as important to master as slinging paint. the next one that comes along wont take you as long to estimate.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Regarding the "budget" question, I always ask it. And, if it is a new client, I usually get that look too. It makes them uncomfortable. They sense that I am trying to control the situation. And, I am at this point. But, I usually get an answer even if it is a roundabout one.
For example, we do alot of sign packages for apartment communities. It's our biggest niche. When I don't get a response to the budget question right away, I simply say "I've identified 135 ways that I can make an apartment number for you (and I actually have) and each one has it's own price point. I need to determine which type will fit within your budget." They usually loosen up a little after that and that is when I usually get my answer. Most of the time they are pretty honest at that point.
If they continue to hesitate, I usually start throwing out some ballpark figures to see how they react. It's kind of like giving them a multiple choice quiz.
Many of my customers are now repeat customers and after a couple of projects together, they start to get to know how we operate and they typically tell me their budget up front. With some of them, I know that their budget figures are firm. With others I know that the number they give me is their "target" amount but if something really knocks their socks off, they can often "rob Peter to pay Paul" and find some discretionary funds from another part of their budget. (This is primarily the case in new construction)
I find that most customers (especially those who are not experienced sign buyers) get hung up on price because they simply don't know what else to ask. They don't have any other frame of reference for comparison.
It's frustrating to us in the business, but I'm not an expert in their business; I don't expect them to be an expert in mine. So, I have to educate them a little. It's kind of like going out car shopping and asking "How much are your cars?" Well, do you want a Yugo or a Ferrari?
Once I begin to educate the client a little bit, they begin to understand that there is more to it than just "How much?"
One line I've always liked:
"Speed costs money, baby! Open up your checkbook and tell me how fast you want to go!"
I've just never had the guts to use that one on anyone I didn't know really well.
-------------------- Brian Hinkle Hincor/Sign Blue Book Mesa, Arizona Posts: 13 | From: Mesa, Arizona | Registered: Jun 2003
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Oh come on Scooter, I expected you to have some ingenious reply about going back to the client and having a very civil conversation to be sure he was comparing apples to apples.
I've sitting here wondering about the other painter's motives. Maybe Corey is right about the lowball for grins thing. But I'm sure that I'm lower priced than some, and higher priced than others. My motive often being what I think I can get away with, and still get the job, and how much I need the work. Maybe the guy actually thinks that's all he can get. I remember often having this thought in the back of my mind about this rough-guy that would do 4x8's for $175. I still would bid my work according to what I needed to get, but the thought was there. Even after he went out of business, he was the lowball phantom that lingered. Maybe this other guy's got some phantom he's remembering, there's probably not too many people still bidding in that range. Maybe he honestly hasn't calculated his costs. Oh well, just my musings.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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