posted
Allow me to clear up a couple of points. As concerns a film that fails,I've heard installers say at one time or another, "Oh, you just got a bad roll". That can't happen, and here's why. In order for one roll to be "bad", there MUST be at least a large number of others faulty as well. Films are generally cast or extruded into a "log", and that log is 52" or 54" wide (as cast on the coating line) and 1,500' long. The log is then cut into masters which are 48" wide and 750' long. From there its converted into (typically) 150' long rolls of whatever widths, ie: 24", 15", or into 30' rolls and all of the various striping film sizes that pass through the slitters and rewinders. Once the log is cast, it is rewound the opposite side up to receive the adhesive system on the coating line. The gloss of your films is determined by the gloss of the casting paper. There are various aspects as to what may cause a film to fail. Adhesive failure is virtually unheard of. Film delamination CAN occur if there is an inherent problem with the initial formulation. IE: Arlon films in about 1982. Any film containing "Lampblack" in the formulation failed that year. And it failed across the board in black, all browns, all silver/charcoal/etc. metallics, burnt orange etc. The reason was that the barrel containing lampblack had been processed with ordinary tap water, not purified water. Tap water contains contaminant salts and that simple fact caused film delamination from the adhesive. It cost Arlon a bundle that year and I'm sure someone on the coating line got reamed for not checking that 50 gallon drum label for content.
If your film fails, there is a reason, and it always has to do with improper prep or use of the wrong product on the wrong substrate. You simply cannot have "a bad roll". There have to be a very large numer of those rolls from that log out there as well.
If you do have a film failure, call the factory and get the name of the rep. Avery in particular will always solve your problem. That's why they have a lab and tech staff.
So, how do I know all this? I spent a full year at the Arlon factory in 1980 learning the coating line and slitters. After that first year I taught their field training classes for 5 years, flying out of Kalispell on Friday mornings and holding installer hands-on training in different cities and returning home on Sunday night. I learned one or two things.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Pierre, very educational. You've cleared up bad rolls from the factory, but what about old stock sitting in a warehouse for who knows how long with heat, cold, humidity? These factors can create a "bad roll" too, can't they?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Educational indeed, but I do not entirely agree with the whole process as described. If a large lot is distributed nationwide, each sign company who aquires a small piece of the big picture uses it in different environments. For instance, I did a police car with A7 reflective.It failed. No ifs, ands, or buts. However, someone else may have used the sister roll to do interior signage. No problem reported. I have been installing since 1979 and have had almost no failures. I always install dry regardless of size or material, and I feel it is inexcusable for a product to fail within 90 days of install. The Gerber right next to it did not fail. Same installer, same police car, same day, same weather conditions.
No ranting intended, on the upside, I see your point too. It's just that 8 of 10 failures are never reported....they just become lost customers.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Hey, Kissy. Yep, it could, howsomever...... It is routine practice at the plant to rotate stock regularly. Heat, humidity and cold are not a typical issue as the storage area is controlled for just those reasons.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Rick...while you're quick to tell Pierre here he's wrong,unless i read this wrong on the other post you never have adressed how you prepped the surface....except to say prep should not be an issue....sorry but prep is *ALWAYS* an issue despite what you think whether you're using vinyl or paint and reading this from the outside it sounds like thats where your problem still is, and the difference in adhesive aggressiveness/quality is making one brand adhere better than the others over whatever is there over the surface.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Sorry, Rick. I wasn't ignoring you. We're rather busy here. Please understand that formulations for colours and adhesives do not change from log to log. All films and adhesives go through the weather accelerator testing before casting and issue. When a true problem is found, its ALWAYS during the first cycle of manufacture and issue. That likelihood is infinitesimal as the lab does not allow any colour or adhesive to go to the coating line before knowing adhesion and longevity. Film failures would be massive and across the board. Your problem is either incorrect product for the application, prep or substrate. Do you have a remenant that you can send me?
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Something that slipped my mind. There are certain automobile mfgs that use a silicone additive to certain paints for a high gloss. This is a specific adhesive contaminant and even Polycracker may not work. Run a test first. Install a 4'x4' swatch of film on the paint, heat it with a heat gun, wait 10 minutes and strip it off. Is there any resistance? Pre-curing with heat is a sure way to tell.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Yes, prep is important, I didn't mean to minimize that, However, I prepped the way I always have. My curiousity was the difference in ashesion of the two brands of vinyl. Tim Doyle cleared that up for me. It seems that the Place Right vinyl requires a whole proceedure for install which was not included in my carton as I bought a 10yd roll from my supplier. I guess you only get the printed directions when you buy a 50yd.
I want to make it known that Tim Doyle more than made up for my vinyl loss. Thanks Tim!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Not that long ago, my supplier sent me an Avery high performance full roll of vinyl that appeared to have a dimpled appearance to it. I called them, THEY told me it was a bad batch, it was rolled too tightly when manufactured and they replaced it.
Should we use the term bad batch instead of bad roll?
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Something else to watch for, and I mentioned this before on the bullboard, everyone needs to check the liner paper for the brand name. Avery has their name printed on all liner paper and so does 3M. I have received products ordered from a supplier's catalog and found out later that they no longer handle that product and "substitued" with something else without asking me if it would be alright to substitute.
I'm finding many suppliers have one brand listed for their vinyls, and then they decide to go with a cheaper brand without noting it do customers. Same with substrates, I have ordered products made by Laminators and recieved something from a different company and it's NOT the same quality.
An Avery rep told me recently that their name will appear on all their products so suppliers who convert large bulk rolls to smaller, will not mix and match and say it's all Avery. I asked one supplier if they sold Avery vinyl and he asked me which colors I was interested in. Some were Avery, but he handled cast film from different companies, but were all on the same color chart. I don't like the idea of using two layers of vinyl and having one color one brand and the other color another brand.
Just my thoughts on the topic. Having failures with one color and not another may be because they really are not from the company with thought they were.
Pam Eddy, Pam's Signs
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
You're absolutely right, Pam. I had forgotten about that one and I've seen it happen before.
Donna, the correct "Industry Technical Term" is actually...... "Abject Pile."
heh.......
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I just spoke on the phone with Tim Doyle at Avery. They are going to take care of the problem I had and make me happy. I appreciate it greatly when a manufacturer stands behind their product and makes it right. Kudos to Tim and Avery.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5106 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks Pierre. The only film I was dissatisfied with from Avery was the mottling on a couple rolls, and other than that, it was good and held up even with my soapy applications. Trucks looking good after a few years in the heat and cold.
Can't know enough about vinyl (especially what humidity does to it!)
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Don't mean to throw a wrench in this thread but......
When you do have problems with vinyl and the company "makes it right", just what do you call making it right. A replacement roll,.....?????
What has been your experience?
I had several rolls of avery that were termed "bad" that resulted in four truck jobs and three door/window jobs kicking back on me. It was costly in terms of re-doing the job with new vinyl and costly in terms of "word of mouth".
My labor and vinyl costs came in at $1900.00 .
I rec'd credit at a local supplier for three rolls of vinyl equating to about $225.
$225 versus $1900 (and the "word of mouth")
Should I be just tickled pink over that or a little dissapointed?
posted
I am interested in this thread, as we use 97% Avery products here and on the whole am really pleased, we use mainly cast averys, up to 10 year cast, not the 12 year supercast vinyl, and their European calendered 7 year product.
That said I recently had a couple of failures, and can post pictures to illustrate the problem.
Castvinyl lifting in vehicle recesses, and vinyl curling up and peeling off after less than 4 years, this is cast, and sitting next to other cast, the glue is still on the vehicle, so I doubt it has much to do with surface prep. The same vinyl was applied to an industrial aluminium sign that was laminated first with another colour (which is fine) but this same colour is begining to lift.
We are far from living in the desert here, we have a mixed climate here in Scandinavia.
I am interested in your comments Pierre and find them educational, but wonder sometimes about the way the glues work with the vinyl. Why on some removals do "permanent" films come away leaving no glue residue, and others leave hours of cleaning up work.
Incidentally we apply all work dry, we now use Avery Surface Cleaner, and previously used other products approved by our distributors and 3M.
posted
I have never heard of the Avery Surface Cleaner. I would be interested to learn more. I guess I will have to call Avery. They have been good about calling to see how I like color samples I have ordered for special jobs. I think they are working at good customer service. Something many companies need to work on.
Thanks for the mention of their surface cleaner.
Pam Pam's Signs
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
I must admit that this is a bewildering thread for me. In all of the years that we've been exclusively Avery we have yet to experience a single failure, and we cycle a temendous amount of film through our shop for being as small as we are. We use it over rivets, corregation, wheel well compound curves, all without lifting or the other failures I'm seeing here. I'm beginning to wonder if there are factors involved that we don't experience here in NW Montana with the annual % of cloud cover we have. Delamination from the adhesive would typically involve the amount of plasticizer in the product, and that is definitely a formulation problem. "Rewinding too tight" is a new one for me since I have firsthand experience with log and master rewinding. I have to wonder about that statement from the rep. I'm going to take some time next week and contact the Lab at Avery. That's where the "horse's mouth" is located. I'll keep you posted.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Pierre, I wish that I knew you when I was the Product Specialist at Oracal! Learning on the fly how to troubleshoot vinyl while being tremendously overloaded with other duties isn't something I'd recommend to anybody!
Though in developing my sleuthing abilities and working closely with Germany, I pretty much learned what you first stated. It is very rarely a vinyl failure and never an adhesive failure, though telling the end user this is difficult.
I'm happy to be pursuing my favorite interest now (wide format digital printing) and look forward to being an expert in this much less aggrivating field (though troubleshooting finicky inkjet printers isn't necessarily fun either!).
How is Kalispell by the way? I've been thinking that may be where I'd like to settle someday...
posted
when i used to be a salesman for a company that sold vinyl their warehouse was not climate controled the slow moving colors might sit on the shelf for 2 years from below freezing to above 100 degrees.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We use Avery A4 and A6 vinyls. The only "failure" we've ever had was a roll of blue that turned out to be a roll of A3 that had been sitting on a warehouse floor for a couple of years. Our distributor replaced it without any questions.
My Avery problem, which is not that big a deal, is that some of the colors feel and cut differently than others in the same family (i.e. a4 or a6). It's gotten worse lately to the point where we've dropped the a4 black and impulse blue and started using these in higher grades exclusively. I can't get my plotter to cut the black A4 with the weight set high enough to cut sandblast mask. The three contacts I'v ehad with anybody at Avery they all said the same thing..."Never heard anything like that, don't know what you're talking about, want us to replace it?" They did offer to replace the rolls so I can't complain, it just kind of annoys me that I get the feeling they don't think I know how to tell the difference between how one cuts and feel and how another cuts and feels.
I did try to email them a couple of weeks ago and have gotten no response. Like I said, it's not a problem, I was really more interested in suggestions on how to get it to cut. Most of our signs are very temporary (less than a year) and I'd love to be able to use the cheaper black and blues.
I will say this though, we have had none of the shrinkage problems we had with other lines of film, none of the fading or chalking problems, and the colors we order always match the color chart...thats why we use them, its good stuff.
[ June 16, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Patrick Whatley ]
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
When this subject came up, I had a job pending for a very old customer and good friend.
I ordered Avery Reflective (as usual.)
Readin' all this I got a little concerned. So I took a 1/2" piece off the end and applied it to my shop truck.
This is after using rubbing alcohol with paper towels to clean.
I applied it dry and with homebrew app fluid. I have applied Avery reflective with homebrew on several vehicles that have yet to have any problems.
------------------------ Ambulance: 5 years FD Pumper: 6 years FD Duty car: 6 years FD Chief's Tahoe: 3 years Bucket truck: 4 years Shop Truck: 2 years In addition to many others ------------------------
Anyway, after a week, I got to messin' with the test strips. and both seemed ok. I started fooling around with the edges and the top, or transparent color layer lifted on both. The adhesive stuck very well indeed.
Calld my supplier (not a Letterville Merchant so no plug) and traded it in on 3M.
I'm not tryin' to open this can of worms again. I'm just sayin' that FOR ME Avery reflective ain't workin' like it once did.
I still use A8 and have yet to have one problem.
Your Mileage May Vary.
-------------------- this space for rent Posts: 130 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Some of the storage issues in this thread is why I prefer buying from Gregory. Every roll that ships has a shipping date and a use by date on the label in the tube. I always know when my vinyl has gone past its shelf life. When that happens it either gets used for interior signage or cat hair remover.
I have not had a single vinyl failure in all of my 9 years of signmaking.
posted
As a past QC Manager for an Avery vinyl plant, you can help your supplier (more importantly, Avery, Oracal, etc.) if you can supply the "Lot Number" of any roll you have problems with. With this number, Avery will be able to track everything down including who they purchased the raw materials from. Every roll you receive should have some tracking number on it. If it doesn't, then your supplier is either slitting it themselves or having some one else do it.
They also will be able to spot any trends in defects due to processing and/or raw material problems. They SHOULD also be doing recalls if they discover problems by lot number. If you don't have a lot number on a roll, how will you know if one of your rolls is included?
Finally, do yourself a favor and keep track of which jobs use what lot number! That way, if you find out a roll is bad, then you may want to check out other jobs that have used that same roll. You might just prevent a problem before it happens!
-------------------- Scott Daniels That Sign Shop Rockton, IL 815.624.7271 Posts: 19 | From: Rockton, IL | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Just a quick hello and good luck to Ken Sandlin. We enjoyed our short time with you as the "face of Oracal" Ken. I don't think they ever realized the goodwill and business you generated on their behalf here in Letterville. They never did replace you, ending a potential success story. I just wanted to take this opportunity to say thank you.
-------------------- Barb Shortreed 144 Hill St. E. Fergus, Ontario Posts: 2380 | From: Fergus, Ont. | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Gosh Barb, ya'll are just the best. I had such a good time here with everybody and really missed it. Now that I'm finished with my book and looking to the future, I hope I'll be able to loiter here more often again.
I had a good time at Oracal, if too overworked for too long. I hope my new endeavors become a great success story! Anybody want to learn more about wide format printing?
posted
I can't believe the factory never produces a bad roll theory of Pierre's. Heres why. Several years ago we bought a roll of 3mil black. I believe it was Sparcal. Put it in the cutter to start making letters and noticed there are large air pockets under the film. Looked at the first batch of letters we made and discovered there was no adhesive on the vinyl where where those air pockets were. Turned out the whole 50 yards was like that. About 20% of the roll was missing adhesive. That had to of happened during manufacture. Conversion, lack of climate control, shipping and all the other things that vinyl is subjected to after it leaves the machine won't make the adhesive disappear.
Our supplier was great about it and replaced the roll. I believe he sent it back to Spartan International for a credit. Never did get an explanation of why it happened.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Not a theory, Chuck. Fact. Whatever the problem, it is not possible for it to be ONE roll. It would have to affect most, if not all rolls on the log. Missing adhesive, just like flaws in the film surface, happens at the spreader bar. The bar is set to a certain height, IE: 2mils if the film is to be 2 mil premium. That teflon bar spreads the liquid film to that thickness on its way into the coating line/oven. If ANY particle of junk is caught at the spreader bar, the film is then uneven, streaked or both. It can also happen with the adhesive, but the liklihood of ONE roll being affected in that whole 52"x 1,500' log is infinitesimal.
k31
PS. Chuck, go back and read the opening post to understand how a log is divided.
[ June 18, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Hey Chuck, I think they took that roll you had, transfered it to an Oracal liner and sent it to me! Seriously, 15 to 20 yards into a roll of 30"x50yard 651 black these "veins" began to appear. This slightly raised off the surface of the liner "vein like" formation continued for the next 25 feet of so. I didn't have the space, time or energy to unroll anymore but it appeared to continue for the remainder of the roll. I'm not a scientist but I can say the adhesive under this pattern was visable affected. I called the distributor and they sent a new roll out. Its uncanny how anytime I call a supplier with a vinyl problem they blurt out "its called mottling..." before I can even explain the situation. :-)
Also, is it just me?..... in my last three orders (over the last 3 months) every 30"x10yd roll of factory boxed Avery A8 I get is mottled 6" in from one edge. Uggh! Sucks when you get a new roll and use it on a sign you are delivering that day and the mottling is still s-l-o-w-l-y disappearing. I know it goes away but first impressions....
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey, Bri. Once the copy is mounted on the substrata, hit the film with your heat gun. It disappears real fast. Hit it SUPER hard and the film itSELF goes away. heh...
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Chuck, What you got was an adhesive skipcoat and while, rare, is not unheard of. Adhesive is usually either there and good or not there at all, it's usually pretty easy to tell because it affects a large area of the roll. Pierre is right though, every roll from that master log is probably affected. There are over 100 15" rolls from a master log or over 50 30" rolls, so there are quite a few from each lot, but it's usually unlikely for an individual to see more than one except in the rarer instance that it happens on a bulk color and the distributor gets a skid quantity with a bunch from that lot.
Defects like these should be caught before they leave the factory through quality control procedures, but sometimes they slip past.
Every manufacturer and distributor should take care of it without any hassles.
Brian, that veining is a defect much like Pierre described earlier. Mottling is common in cast films because they are so soft, particularly at that 6"-8" area where the end of the roll overlaps itself causing a pressure mark. During my inspections of multiple cast films, that is common to every manufacturer and does come out quickly with a heat gun (use after applying the graphic, not before).
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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Thanks. I know the veining is a defect but it didn't appear until 15-20 yards into the roll. Who knows if my roll was the first, the last or somewhere in the middle when cut off a 1500' master log? The first 45' of my roll was fine so I don't know if the "spreader bar" problem could be the issue in my case. All I really need to know is that the adhesive was messed up and I needed a new roll. :-) Also, Ken, I meant the A8 is mottled the entire *length* of the roll about 6-8" in from the edge.
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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