posted
Hello All, I know that I have not posted in a while, but that is do to joining a new company, and as they are very busy I have been putting in quite a few overtime hours. But I have always kept track on the board. Anyway, on to my question.
I just read an intersting article on signindustry.com about a school-to-work programs to help shops with there people needs.
And it brought up and interesting point, A lot of baby boomers, which I think atleast a couple here are, will be working past there retirment age. Personally I am only 21 right now with quite a few years left in me. And I really enjoy this industry. Quite a few people have told me that I have strong design and computer skills. But I am still learning everything about the trade though. My question, is twenty years down the road, what will the sign industy look like (and I am not talking about the machines/software around, more the people and style of shops)? Well there be less shops? More, get your sign now, with no quality, with the great quality shops still around, but not as many of them? Right now the article says there are not alot of people to fill the baby boomers spots and the sign trade is not the first one to get filled. So what do you think the future has in store? I have an idea, but I will post it later, just to see what everyone else says. Thanks in advance for reading and hopefully posting a few ideas.
-------------------- Jeff Green Taylor Signs jeff92@shaw.ca Posts: 113 | From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
i'd love to have that crystal ball that would give the answer to that. this business is like any other, time changes its basic usefulness. who know...that they wont invent a material that you can type info to and it magically appears on that stuff, with all the colors and graphics that you can pick. then when you get tired of that sign, you just sit at the computer make a new one and...WALLA NEW SIGN. sounds far fetched....noooo old sign guys would never belive that they got printers that do BILLBOARD WRAPS....for $1.50 a SQ. FT. hindsight is the best thing...and you only get that from....time passing. you make choices....some good some bad. time will tell you if where they fall. i went in the service 1965......hindsight, if i woulda stayed in, i woulda retired 1985. and still probably been doin what i do. i quit WEIRTON STEEL COMPANY in 1969, had 5 yrs toward retirement there. moved to maine to take a job that paid 1/2 of what the mill paid. woulda retired from there in 85-90. just heard on the news today...WEIRTON STEEL WENT BELLY UP! so the people that retired from there are screwed.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi Jeff Being that I started quite a long time ago I may have different thoughts than you. When I started in the business everything was handlettered. It was a great career. Back then not everyone wanted to handletter with paint, so there were far less signmakers. Today it is easy to get set up in this line of work. I was so excited to get my first computer and plotter in 1989. However, thru the years I have found myself getting less excited about signmaking. I love the design part of the business. But let's face it, cutting and weeding is not all that exciting. The direction I see signmaking going is obviously digital and LED. Everything seems to be getting more machine made and less personalized. Quite a few large companies are getting in house sign shops. This is exciting for some. But for me I find myself daydreaming about another career and designing signs for my new business! I will always have designing signs in my heart, but more the old fashioned type. I love seeing the old wooden gold leafed signs....!
edit edit....forgot to say...as far as people wise, I am pretty sure there will still be an overabundance of signmakers 20 years from now.
posted
Jeff, I feel in 20 years the Quick shops will have taken over about 40 to 50% Just due to the technology.. Look at Kinkos and Office max.But I think People like yourself will keep the art alive. Im only 37 now but I started in my Mid 20s in the sign industry and I was taught the only thing there was was vinyl. After doing that for 10 years I wanted to learn more about the craft not the Monkey Cut Vinyl syndrom. I am very technology driven (As I cant draw a stick figure and make it look right) so I try to find a happy mid point. I love all the old world craftsmanship so I try to recreate it with modern means. So I think alot of the up and comming sign people will want to learn the craft also and that will keep the specialty shops alive. And places like this where we can learn the trade from others willing to share it with us
posted
I began my graphic arts training in junior high school in 1976... our school had one of the very first computer driven photo typesetting machines. it could display an entire LINE of type. (the previous model didn't display more than five letters). we also used X-acto knives to cut stencils for screen printing.
today you can do typesetting on a home computer for less than $500, and make photocopies 24 hours a day at Kinkos. I still use an Xacto knife.
i don't know, but i suspect that "in the good old days" (back before you could buy paint already mixed, in the CAN!) there were "quickie shops" and "custom" workers. back then there wasn't as much NEED for signs -- since everybody in town knew who the barber was, who the miller was, and who the dry goods man was. Those were the days before the Xacto knife.
Now "anybody" can make a sign... and there is more need than ever for signage.
so in the future? some people will want custom signs, taken care of by professionals, and other people will do their own signs using "HologramShop" or "LED-paint". There will be a large market for cheap signs, and a smaller market for well made signs, and a HUGE market for corporate signs -- just like today.
(billboards, bus wraps, in-store POP advertising, and other large corporate work like Macdonalds are done by a few HUGE sign companies, and probably outweigh the total volume of letterheads and quickshops combined).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I think that if you go back through history, there were then as there will always be different types of signs made with varying materials for all types of applications at many skill levels.
There were probably cave painters that were hacks and those that were more advanced. Perhaps they discovered a new technique for applying dung on a cave wall or simply improved their layout and design skills.
I would suggest that at 21, with your obvious interest in the craft, you learn as much as you can. There are many of us that will not be around when you are nearing your retirement age... you have a great opportunity to forward a fine craft/profession.
Will there be a need for "painted" signs down the road? You bet. Vinyl, blasted, wood, hdu, pvc, led, neon... all will have a place somewhere.
Take a look at many of the communities around the country that are in a "revitalization" mode. Our historic district, for exapmle, will not allow future backlit signs. They want to maintain a certain fit or flavor for that area of the city. This will happen over and over again.
I started out with paint and moved into the computer age. I am so glad it happened that way for me. I recently completed a couple of business signs with paint, all paint. Being able to do that gives me a great sense of satisfaction. The customer looks at the sign and wonders how you did it. Hey that's my secret and I'd have to kill you if you found out.
Beyond layout and design skills, I think that you should also learn how to deal with a customer. You need to be able to get inside his or her head and understand what they are looking for. Perhaps they really do not know... that happens too. Your skills should be more than just cranking out product.
-------------------- Jeff Vrstal Main Street Signs 157 E. Main Street Evansville, WI 53536 1-608-882-0322 Posts: 670 | From: Evansville, Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I have to say that it will depend on where you want to be. Most sign guys are happy with being a quickie Stickie clip-art layout persons, those types will always be around. A skilled craftman/artist/designer will always be needed, they will have to adjust, as always, with the needs of thier client base, but the need for a good signpainter, pictorial artist, carver, etc... will always find a place. The question for you should be is: Where do I want to take this, to feel fulfilled and make a decent living? Once you find out what you want to do, you take the neccesary steps to get taught those skills, get good at it, find your niche and forget about what the unskilled layout people are doing.
Rick
Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Hiya Jeff, My Crystal ball says "20 years from now, sign making as we know it will be dead". Paints and inks will be banned by the E.P.A. and the EPA will be headed by 3M or Walmart. Sign shops will be a self serve commodity like gas stations & car washes. Swipe you credit card & the process will start. You'll have 2 choices of substrates - flexible or rigid. Then, you'll get to choose how long the sign should last. Design will be handled by an annoying little paper clip that pops up on your interactive screen & walks you through the design choices. Once the design is completed, it will take less than 15 minutes to print & dry. Store front signs & billboards will be electronic "pay-to-be-viewed" direct marketing sources. The message or advertisement will change to suit the needs of the passer-by. Vehicle lettering will be just like running your car thru the car wash. The same principles as above will apply except, when your vehicle comes out the other end of the wash, it will be "wrapped" with the message of your choice. . . It could happen!
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If you look at trades in general in the long run, economy and demand determines the path & life of trades.
For better or worse, nothing stays forever.
-------------------- Adrian Niño Maya SIGNS 5505 Old Redwood Hwy. Santa Rosa, CA 95403 MayaSIGNS@aol.com Posts: 21 | From: Santa Rosa, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
sooo what you're saying here is basically...find a new career cause sign makers are a dying breed...the thought of going back to being a bean counter makes my ass itch...i'm gonna stick it out for another 10 years and see what happens...by then i'll be 50ish...i guess it will be time to start something else...sure do hope i win the lottery!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
As soon as I find out what a "Destite" sign maker is, I'm gonna send some money!
Go digital, mon. Technology is gonna swallow the majority of the trade unless you have something that electronics can't duplicate.
k31
BTW, Si. What were you doing on the AW during working hours? Hmmm?
heh.........
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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What I have seen over the years is it takes time for people to adjust. Thats the key to staying alive in the sign business...the adjustment period is lengthy, you have some time to steer your career.
We were one of the first shops in the area to get a Gerber 4B in 1987 or 1988 When I came to this board in 1996 or 97 there were still tremendous fights amongst everyone over PAINT VS VINYL.
That was a span of 10 years.
Now 8 years later we all fight over which vinyl is better and which inkjet plotter is good.
So every 8-10 years there is a window of opportunity to change that spans several years and plenty of time to adjust to the "next big thing"
Communication and advertising, whatever form will be big money items.
Don't worry, there will always be some sign supplier with a deal and a finance plan to help you buy that lazer sky billboard projector to project advertising on clouds, and that ink jet sprayer that sprays the whole commercial van or semi with a full color add in one push of the button.
[ May 21, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
I read something recently that said "70% of children entering preschool or grade 1 today, will when they graduate go into jobs that don't exist today" . That's pretty sobering. That's assuming they get a job at all too. But then think back, look at the industry , and computers today, and go back 20 years: practically no PCs, no mobile phones, fax machines, and for speedy communication, a telegram could be sent! Vinyl was used for upholstery and cheap tablecloths. Try and sit back in 1983 and predict 2003 and how accurate are you going to be?
One answer which seems to have been avoided is that "we" are adaptable, and we can adapt as the trade or demands & requirements change. Aren't a lot of us keen to master new programs to expand our creativity. As technology grows, we grow to fill the void with our design skills etc.
Where technology will be in 20 years is another question. As Jeffrey says, learning to handle people/customers, as well as salesmanship are skills that won't go out of date.
A personal analysis of the past 20 yrs, shows people want imformation, and people want it quickly, and then they want service, quickly. There will be exceptions to the rule, but that analysis seems to govern society. Just project it, and stirr in a few hiccups, and add some imagination and a good colour scheme, a bevel edge, drop shadow, feather it a few pixels, animate it, and project your Gif up onto the clouds. With a few lasers you can add some extra effects and stripes.
Little green men from mars might even need some ID and stripes on their flying saucers. Even the space shuttle has a name. Somehow, we'll grow to fill a yet-to-be-created void I think.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7016 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Thanks for all of the posts. I guess the one thing that I really want to do is learn more, period. The one thing that really interests me right now is sandblasting, and one of my older coworkers is more that willing to show me how. So that is great. Also painting the sign will be always usefull. Also Goldleafing intrigues me. I Love the idea, and the look of it. Then I am always a nut for design, and really good sign design. Right now I love working with a full color printer.
I guess in the future I see a even wider devide of quality shops and quick shops. There will be the WalMart, insert Credit Card here, type of places just interested in as quick as possible. Then the other shops that will be quality. Taking the time to figure out a design, and a how to do it.
I really hope to become one of those sign shops. Quality driven. Right now I love talking to the customer and trying to figure out the best solution to there problem, whether it be a simple 2d sign, logo, or vehicle , it is just plan fun to be in the craft.
Thanks for listening and the posts, very in-sitefull!
-------------------- Jeff Green Taylor Signs jeff92@shaw.ca Posts: 113 | From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Great question. I have seen many changes in my short career. Checkers has a point too. Hand painters are a "dying breed" in that nobody wants to pay for talent or real people helping us. Look at the Internet airline ticket industry. This is a good lesson for us in that we see really good travel agents not only surviving, but making a good living in spite of the Internet. A good customer service driven sign shop with superior design abilities will always have a nitch. Never underestimate the power of repeat business. Long story short...Our tomorrow is driven by the relationships we make today. Have a great day!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Tourist communities are like amusement parks where folks will pay to experience nostalgia and futuristic concepts. Positioning yourself in the proper surroundings could be the edge to surviving while doing the craft that many of us find produces joy. The general industry will all be built of light and sound, but there will still be elite that will pay for craft.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6813 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
For what it's worth, ( probably less than 2 cents), my opinion is that the industry will change as everything else has. The materials and methods will probably change. You may have to change your foucus on where you are marketing your services, but as always if you look you can find a place to use your skills, talents, etc. Remember necessity is the mother of inventions.
-------------------- Robert Richards Southern Ad Specialties Carrollton, GA 770-830-1501 sasga2000@a0l.com Posts: 138 | From: Carrollton, GA | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Positioning yourself in the proper surroundings could be the edge to surviving while doing the craft that many of us find produces joy.
Where you are or CHOOSE TO BE will in large part determine the type of work you do. If you are located in a large industrial city or in a marina district, or a tourist area, obviously it will affect the type of work you do.
In some cases you can go against the flow and change things, or perhaps do like I do and specialize in work that is sold largely outside my immediate area. But these scenerios aren't normal.
Choosing to work with your hands and mind will be a concious decision and go along with choosing a premium location that is compatible with your decision.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8765 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
My background is in painting, which like the sign business has changed a lot over the years. The old timers would talk about mixing their own paints, and painting entire houses by brush. Now we buy what ever colour you need, and spray or brush and roll. Lots of 'College Pro' painting companies have sprung up everywhere. They underbid everyone, use student as cheap labour, and at best do a so-so job. Sound just like the 'quicky stick' outfits popping up everywhere.
A quality product will never get out of date, and there are lots of people out there willing to pay for this. It's our job to educate the consumer that which sets us appart from the mass produced, big box store, quicky stick type of 'signage'.
Technology can create a cut or printed letter perfectly, but a perfect letter in a perfect word is not a perfect design or layout. I strongly believe that in the future that we all will have lots of perfect things, but we'll long for things less than perfect, not quote so square, something unique, something custom made, something that is a one a kind that sets us appart from the herd. Sell something that is unique, made only for them, a one of a kind, and you'll always be in demand.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
If technology has, or were to have all the answers, then none of us would have to adjust kerning on certain words in our layouts, right?...
In my opinion, for this business, technology will always be a part, and a growing part at that.
That said, applying that technolgy to make a sign, make a good sign, and make a great sign will have a variable---the operator doing the layout and using their talents and imagination. I don't think technology is ever going to replace the human graphics ability---it's art man.
I started in the business 11 years ago running a vinyl plotter, weeding and masking. We got an EDGE shortly thereafter and I loved it! Then, we invested in a bone-slow HP inkjet, and we loved that!--the printing ball had started rolling. In 1994, after 2 years in the biz, I thought vinyl cut would be gone by the year 2000 and everything would be printed. WRONG!
Checkers raises a VERY good point. The PVC, inks, paints, etc that we are all used to may indeed undergo a great change once the "Enviro-Cops" get a good look at our industry. If something's going to change, I'd say it more the materials we'll use and less about us.
Let's look deeper--build yourself and your business on something that technolgy can't outdate---your talents and ability. I don't have the wrist for it like many brushers do---thank god for computers in my case! There'll will always be a place for guys like Mike, Bob, Don Edwards and Tramp to name a few. Follow that road and you'll always be needed.
posted
I'm new at this too, but desperate to try and avoid the vinyl if at all possible. I want to use it to help me, with masks etc but to stick to this "dying trade" and try to keep it alive. As I look around me I see loads of handpainted signs and vehicles. It's a pleasure to see. The market is swamped with people buying software and cutters, then battling to make a killing with all the competition. But those who use the traditional methods, I think, will be able to plod along and make a comfortable, satisfying living. I hope anyway.
-------------------- Barbara Murrell 4 Elements (Global)Ltd Ware Herts England barbara@4elementsglobal.com Posts: 87 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Although I have been at this for several years as a "pure" painter, I recently bought a small plotter and began doing some vinyl work. Several of my customers made comments that inferred that I was betraying my work by getting away from painting. I never knew how many people appreciated the traditional aspect of my work.
I believe that the truly talented signers I,ve met, and been inspired by, are those who are willing to experiment, be creative and expressive, and are open to new technologies without losing the essence of the original sign methodology. They continue to have busy shops and are sucessful businesses.
In this area, several vinyl shops have opened, cranked out a ton of one color jobs, burned out the market, and gone. Over the years, many of the customers they once had now contact me to get a more artistic or better quality job to replace such work. Although I have been hurt by such shops in a very small rural market, I still have a solid customer base that is more concerned with a good product.
It is always heartening to have a customer come in because you have a reputation for good work. As with any industry or trade, those who produce a better product or offer a better service will long outlive a "hobby shop" that never tries to improve itself.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think with the rapid pace of new developments in communications and technolegy that most signage will be digital...moving across screens like TV.
-------------------- Rick Whitmire Trick Communications & Signs Box 1124, Hudson, WI Posts: 132 | From: Hudson, WI | Registered: Nov 2002
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