posted
I'm doing a bunch of paper banners for a local event. (Its a freebie -- I'm just doing it to practice my lettering). I'm using 1-Shot Poster paints on butcher paper, and the main letters are about 14" high. I was wondering what kind of brush you all would suggest.
I was using a 1" Mack truck liner (ie, flat grey squirrel, series ), and if the paint was REALLY thinned out, and if i tried REALLY hard, i could almost get a 1-3/4" wide line for the main strokes. Otherwise, it was two strokes for every line. I didn't like the edge I got one the ends of the lines, but the side were nice. What's the "right" way to letter something that big - outline and fill in? Different kind of brush?
(I'm just not able to practice painting ||||\\\\////OOOO, so I donate quikie signs like these -- doesn't matter how good, or bad, they look, and gives me some "real" practice with a minimum of cost, plus it generates some goodwill).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Use the brush that you are confident painting with is the one that makes a good swing and can make every strokes count with comfort. You form the brush from your use of it,practicing strokes of the art of brush lettering Then That's the good brush to use.
Poster paint on paper i would not outline and fill. Stroke lettering. One shot on metal outline and fill but sometimes you need to kind of do it gradually to blend the outline to the fill
posted
Scooter...you're on the right track. Letters aren't made, they're built! You make the left side of the stroke, then the right, establishing the thickness. When making the inside of curved letters, pay attention to the negative shape you're creating more than the letter itself. The single stroke letters come later. Learn to do the corners....the squared off terminals on each stroke. For paper banners, I always preferred show card color (highly pigmented water based tempera color that flowed) and a KAMOX flat. A 1" tool for 1 3/4" strokes sounds fine to me. Have fun!
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6812 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
also ....since your practicing...get some of those cheap spong brushes in different widths...and work with some TEMPA PAINTS. you will be amazed at how easy the foam brushes lay tempra paint!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Since you're practicing your handlettering, this may not apply, but for doing paper banners really fast, I draw the letters and outline them with a thick marker of the same color. Filling in is a breeze. The main reason for this method is, that thinned poster paint tends to bleed, and this way you don't have to worry about it.
posted
Paper banners are best done on a table with only about a 30 degree slope. When brushing on paper I have found it best to rest your brushing hand on the paper when painting. This wil give you consistant pressure on the brush, and help in producing straight lines. If your hand does not slide easily on the paper, just rub the side of your hand on the paper for 10 seconds and it should slide just fine. Keep the tunes cranked and have fun.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
thanks for the tips. here are some things i'm having trouble with:
1) I've tried tempera paints, but they wrinkle up the paper and i get frustrated. even though its a cheap (free!) practice piece, i don't ENJOY making wrinkled stuff. am i missing a step to keep the paper flat? Plus, with the 1-shot poster paints i can use the same brushes for other work (instead of having a set of oil brushes and a whole set of water brushes).
2) these signs are 10' long. i WISH i had a 10' table with a 30 degree slant. I wish I had a 10' table. I wish i had room for a 10' table. i'm doing these taped up onto the wall of my building. (hey, at least i'm getting out of the basement and into the "fresh" city air and sunshine).
3) I used my plotter to draw the first banner (using a marker). I painted it in (filling in the outline). Then i put the next piece over that and sort of traced through the paper. Not exact, but close enough, and easier than pouncing. Using a marker for the outline sounds good, but i'll probably use some of my liners, just so I can practice that too.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
To me the most important reply you receive came from Rick Sacks. Check it out. He describes lettering perfectly. It doesn't matter if you are lettering freehand, filling in plotted letters or following a pounce pattern. Form the left side, form the right side and pay attention to the negative space displaced by the letter. Thanks Rick.
posted
After you letter the first one and it dries, put the paper over the second and you should see the letters through it and just letter it without any marks. Move the second and repeat. When you make letters with a brush you can add some flare to the end of the strokes so they don't appear weak like computer fonts do. When I was an apprentice they used to tell me to "Put some sailor pants on those letters."
Oh, Scooter, If you're using the stuff they call tempera in art supply stores you will find it dries too quickly and wrinkles. If you use a quality show card color you can make long strokes and get great coverage and really experience a swing and rhythm that can be extremely satisfying!
Another comment made to me as an apprentice holding the brush handle close to the ferrule was "Quit choking that brush." I learned why those flats have handles that long. I'd get the tip on the handle in the crotch of my thumb and index finger and often wish it was longer. Doing this type of banner I'd never let my hand slide on the paper! I'd get a good step back and make longer strokes. Getting the right music going helps, and I'd far preffer lettering the banners on a wall than on a thirty degree table. That table I find comfortable for shocards, but for banners, I don't want to reach that far and want control to back up quickly should a drip be about to escape. But again, it really depends on the music.
Here is a photo of my son Jake with a paper panner he did when he was 15. The angle of the bench is what we find comfortable. I also have metal on it so magnets can hold the banner or a pattern for electro pouncing.
I hope this helps you Scooter and give encouragement to you.
[ May 09, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6812 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
One thing to keep in mind when doing paper banners, especially free ones, is choice of letterstyles. The ones you have chosen will require a lot of nit pickin strokes. The substitution of a script or casual for the top line and something like a condensed Cooper or Frankfurter would make these go a lot quicker.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I just read the replies and was going to write one to suggest using a more brush friendly letterstyle, but George beat me to it. Also I would use the 1-shot poster paint. It needs a lot of thinning to work good on paper, so as far as practicing, that will be good for more paper banners, but not really good practice for the usual lettering jobs that require a more full bodied paint. The two styles of painting are quite different in feel, since you have no drag with the poster colors (hardly, that is)
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Rick, I agree with you on the table angle, using the method of brushing as you've suggested. It is the more conventional way of painting. The method I suggested is what we used when we were doing 2 colour paper window banners for grocery stores. Most banners were 3' x 7'. We found by resting the hand on the table while brushing allowed us to 'load' up the brush to the maximum without having to worry about drips. I averaged around 4 banners per hour, while my dad could crank out up to 8 per hour using this method. layout was limited to light pencil guidelines for the letters, an outline for the larger numbers (price). We averaged around 200 banners per week, lots of repetition. I like the term 'sailor pants' for the flares on the corners of the letters. These take practice, practice, practice, but well worth the results. Your son did well at such an early age, still at it? Good luck scooter, have some fun with. What's the worst that could happen?
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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When I read your post yesterday, I thought the same, decided I would get to long winded???me?? to reply.
An easy way to get those casual styles going... do a little scale mock-up of banner and use felt pen, then project, lightly mark out with charcol stick. You'll get a smoother more natural letter, than trying to layout a full size letter. Make sense??
Same with script, using a Sharpie, you can do a bunch, pick your best, project, you got the swing and flow, after awhile, you're going to full size right off, then you've thrown your plotter into the Bay, and.........
"pigments and hairs....REAL old school!"
John Lennig / SignRider
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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NEXT time i'll use a more casual style. for this time, even "fighting" with the Franklin Gothic was educational. I read some place that it takes about 1000 hours to become proficient at lettering (not good -- just proficient). so every hour i spend -- even on paper banners -- is an hour closer to my goal of proficiency.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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If you don't want to worry about the paint dripping on the banner, try to letter you banners on an easel ( maybe a 4' by 8' ) tilted on the top ( assuming it is attached to the wall ) about 5 degrees from the perpendicular line of the wall. There is no way you'll get drippings on the banner, this way. You are doing fine. Stick to poster paint and to the widest truck lettering flat brush you can handle. ----For the horizontal strokes of the letters and the top and bottom of those straight ends, such as I, E, etc, try praticing away from your project ( meaning, maybe a piece of scrap paper ), and hold your brush in the perpendicular position ( assuming it's a flat ) and practice doing the same thing you were doing when you were pulling those nice vertical strokes you were talking about, but this time you are going to do the same but across or horizontally. I think you are doing fine. Just don't lose the interest in learning. Saludos compadre!
P.S.---For paper signs I use the same kind you are using, but in my days it was called bond paper and it used to be weight 20lbs or 22lbs. I found that, for me, it was the best medium and it still maintains a certain amount of transparency, which allows you to see the previous paper you painted, when you are lettering the same copy on all.
posted
Scooter, this won't help with your brush practice, but maybe 5 years ago I saw a grocery store employee using a really nifty tool. It was a felt marker type tool, for lack of better description. If I recall, it wasn't shaped like a big felt marker, but made a inch and a half or two inch stroke, real wide, real fast. I'll try to see if I have a note with a product name or number. I was really interested at the time, I wanted to start a sort of budget window splash deal. Money is tight around here, and people don't regard window signs as a temporary advertisement. If they're going to pay that kind of money, they want it to last 10 years. So I was trying to come up with a loud, cheap paper banner that goes on the inside of the window. I got a roll of florescent yellow paper and even made my own giant felt marker thingy. I used a tube like container, a piece of sheet metal and some felt, with thinned down One-shot. It worked, but was a bit tricky. It needed fine tuning, big time. I started getting busy with more conventional sign work, and havn't persued it. I'll post another reply if I find that info. Do they have Raley's stores in "The City"? (They did in Sacramento). Anyway, when I was there, the store department managers all were required to take a class on lettering, so they could make posters of the daily specials. They did pretty well. Jim D.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Scooter, I think I found it. All I have is a yellow post-it type note with a name and address, no comments like "giant felt marker" next to it. But I think this it: Ready Mark Co. P.O. box 374 Roanoke, Alabama 36274. I'm sitting here having a blast looking through a ten year collection of notes to myself and promotional ideas. Very inspiring. Some silly, some serious. One says: scientists should develope a variety of mice that feeds only on cockroaches, then leaves when the bugs are gone. Another says: (at the bottom of a page of my child rearing goals) Reward the children when they examine thier own motives and actions. I could go on, but suffice it for now. Jim D.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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