posted
Dave do you know this for a fact or are you taking some guys word for it who works at a body shop. Did u actually see these packages maybe they were right next to his zig-zags or on top of his water bong. Or maybe next to his lunch which consists of a 12 pack and a pickle.
I have a hard time believing 3m would ship anything with Orawhatever's name on it.
Even if they did the 3m schtuff that comes in MY shop aint the same as the oracrap I've used.
I'm not saying it aint so but before I stood behind that statement I'd get a better resource myself.
[ May 06, 2003, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
3m might SELL their striping tape to ORACAL....but 3m AINT ORACRAP 651!!!!!!! now oracal 851 MIGHT BE 3M....hehehehehehehehehe
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'm with Rob - I find it very hard to believe!!
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
as I extremely doubt the little auto shop is ordering directly from 3M, my guess, would be that the local 3m distributor is now stocking the Orafol too ... probably because it's cheaper
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Some people use 3M application tape on other makes of vinyl, to "look better"?
At one time there were 2 large companies producing vinyl for many companies in Germany.
Not all we see or buy is what we think today, saw an interesting documentary on global brands and their marketing last week.
Take Calvin Klein parfumes as people have been sharing their own preferances. You would think they were made by a french perfume house, but they are made by Lever Bros together with toilet cleaner and all the other products they make.
We buy a cleaner here direct from a chemical company, and a vinyl remover that is sold to 3M and labelled as theirs and costs many times more.
I have no idea about Oracal....but all is not always what it seems.
posted
We checked out the pricing on this stuff & N Glantz gave us a price difference of $20.00 (if I recall correctly) it could have been a bit less, but at any rate, when you are using a product like 3M, would you take the risks for that kind of difference??? We did not. When we say 3M, the customers can relate. . .I think I'll let our other sign shops in the area play & when their signs hold up for more than 2 - 3 years with out the crackle finish, only THEN will I think about changing. . .You know the saying, "Out of my cold dead hands"
-------------------- Lauri Goretski Custom Murals N6334 HWY 107 TOMAHAWK WI 54487 CustomMurals1@aol.com Posts: 127 | From: Tomahawk Wi | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Sorry Dave, I'm with Bob on this. There's no freakin' way that a company like 3M would do something 'outside their boundaries'. Huge HUGE company with lots of power---both buying power and business smarts. That said, if they were doing something 'outside their boundaries' with another supplier, you can rest assured that it would be so hush-hush that the only people that would know about probably know who the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th shooters were in Dallas back in '63 too!
I'd think it's more likely that the distributor the shop guys get their products from has either told them stories, or they're just plain Dazed & Confused is all---lots of fumes in those body shops---someone tell those buys to paint with a NIOSH mask!
posted
Selling 3m striping tape and other automotive for about the last 25yrs,i can tell you for a fact that 3m doesn't put out anything for sale that does not have the 3m name on it,nor do they tell you who manufactures what for them. The likelihood that anyone in the shop knew that maybe Orafol was a 3m vendor for this is about less than 1%....but the likelihood that he gave them one of these gems of wisdom and they thought about killing him and hiding his body is about 99.5%
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Yup, I'm gasping for breath, Dave. Idiocy just has that effect on me I guess.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If I'm off base with this question, then please accept my apologies. You do seem to be talking alot about it in recent times.
It just seems to me that if you're being paid to promote the product, it would be fair to let rest of us to let us know.
If you're not, then your clarification certainly lends additional credibility to your enthusiasm for the product.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I dunno about 3M offering it....but I do know this: Oracal has worked well for me. I use it in a lot of different applications, and have yet to have a failure.
What are some problems that you all have experienced with it?
posted
651 IS "BUBBLE WRAP".....compared to any other vinyl........dont like the way it feels, its hard as a rock, only broke one blade in my cutter....yep was cuttin 651!!!! like i told ken sanden when i got my roll of 851.....iam glad oracal found a use for the 651....as a liner for their 851!!!! try some AVERY, CALON, GMI, even BANNERCAL intermediate vinyl....then tell me you dont notice the diff.
[ May 07, 2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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We're not out to badmouth OraCal here---it seems to work fine for many people---glad you're having success with it. Which series of Oracal are you using?/
The main thing that irks myself and many others about this post is that Dave is making blatant statements about a manufacturer without confirming and substantiating them---I'm not even going to go down the road that Jon just opened up, but I am interested in the response.
posted
Personally I don't find Dave is out of line at all .. He obviously uses the product and believes in it, and is not afraid to stand behind it. I do the same when I'm happy with a product, Dibond & Graphtec come to mind. I don't hear a peep out of you, Jon, when OP is continuously dumping on oracal, nor do we hear complaints from you when anyone touts Gerber or 3M products.. Glenn Taylors (whom I greatly admire) posts come to mind..
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
I try not to be too brand oriented. I believe that many companies place both good and bad products into the marketplace. I'm not saying that they set out to produce bad quality but everyone makes mistakes. Both Ford and Chevrolet have created some fantastic automobiles. They have also made some humdinger lemons as well !
Having worked for a number of sign shops I have had the opportunity to use many different brands of vinyl. Like anyone, I have formed some opinions on different vinyl manufacturers. I am not fond of Avery vinyl. I don't like the way it feels, cuts, or weeds. I do like Oracal. I regularly use the 651 series for many different types of project and have had great results. The 3M in my mind is a fantastic product. Hard if not impossible to beat. However It (my opinion) is much too costly to justify its use on my everyday projects. If it's obvious that a job really needs to last far into the future It's jutified and built into the cost of the job.
I'm not willing to bump my, and my customer's price up for things that don't need to last that long.
I hope y'all find my post relevant.
Steve
-------------------- Steve Aycock Designs 3489 Oswald St. Johns Island, SC zaor@warpdriveonline.com Posts: 124 | From: Charleston, SC | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
All you guys are confusing people with legitimate complaints voicing them with someone who enjoys posting absurdities and 1/4 brained ideas that if posted by someone who said they were new at this buisness would start a 30 person flame & bash fest. I understand why Jon asked what he did...but Jon..cmon...if you were Oracal would you have paid for a post that was titled vinyl vs paint but took a logical path toward neither? I dont think this has much to do with vinyl period as much as it has something to do with him making up stories.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
....What Gavin said.......plus what I said earlier...I'm still gasping for breath.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Oracal 651 has it's place. I stock only Gerber, Avery, and Oracal. Anybody who buys Oracal knows it. An old Snap On slogan comes to mind...."I'd rather explain the high price of quality than apologize for anything less" Oracal works well on anything inside or short term outdoors. Nothing new, right? It is crispy and wierd, but it weeds well, and applies nice for us.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Another part of this weird little story that rings like a cracked bell: "What kind of vinyl you be using, with that look of motorcycle biker 'we're gonna beat the crap out of you' look." Apart from the redudancy (the "look of....look": Do you ever edit your writing before you hit submit?) and apart from that I can believe you get looked at that way more often than not, I find it hard to imagine that the native fauna infesting the average auto-body shop would know, or care, or ever even vaguely wonder what brand of vinyl you are sticking on their window, or if it comes from Germany, 3M, or Upper Carjackistan. The chance that one of these scoggins would associate vinyl lettering with vinyl striping tape in the first place is slim to none, at best. Indeed, this whole thing, like a fish left in the sun, smells worse the longer it's around.
Nice try though Davey.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I don't know what's funnier.. the digs on Dave, or people who seem to think 3M actually does in-house production on every single product bearing their name.
I know 3M would never let a product out the door with a vendor's name on it, and their vendor wouldn't let that happen either. I wouldn't even doubt Orafol makes the 3M product, but nobody would know that besides Orafol and 3M.. and if that is in fact true, it does not mean Oracal and 3M are selling the same product or even the same level of quality.
I personally find 3M's sign films to be too soft and easy to tear for my applications.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
The things you guys argue about is what is really funny.
I have other news for you guys...the earth is round....shhhhhhhhhhh don't say it too loud, cause it will only upset those here that think in X, Y axis movements only, and don't have a clue about the Z axis.
After saying that, this post should go Platnium overnight. Ya think?
Oh, yeah, remember, personal attacks are not permitted, so play nice.
[ May 07, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
Its not about arguing or whether we all believe any manufacturer makes all their products in house, its more about facts and whether they are true or speculation. If I were told the same info about Orawhatever and 3M I would check my sources and the facts before coming on a public forum of professionals and taunting people with speculative nonsence.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Oh my God, this looks just like the posts in the Amp forums I frequent, where 17 year old death metal guitarists are bashing each other's gear. I obviously missed a whole lot lately. Since when did Dave Draper become the whipping boy? That's rhetorical, I don't want to know the details. If I cared about the Oracal issue (whatever it is) I could look it up in past threads. What alarms me is the sarcasm and insinuations I see going on. I know for a fact every one of you are better than that. Its up to all of us to keep Letterville real. If there's some old agitation between Draper and some of you other long-time regulars, have any of you taken the initiative to contact him by email or telephone? I sincerely hope you find a way to work it out that doesn't involve flame threads. I get too much of that already from the rest of the internet.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ya know what? I'm just gonna say it. I think all that wonderful oversoft, OVERPRICED CAST VINYL out there is OVER RATED.
With a few RARE exceptions where conformity is a factor, I have found calendared materials to hold up just fine.
Years ago, and I suppose in some brands still out there today, there are/were some dimensional stability issues, but I just have not experienced that much of a problem with it.
In ten years I have had MAYBE five or six instances where there was calandered vinyl failures of any note. All those were minor, and provided excellent opportunities to provide good customer service.
I have used both--extensively, and I have to say that the cast stuff is more dud than bang for my bucks.
posted
What about the owners of vinyl failures who don't come back to complain Barry? Not saying I don't use my share of calendered, but know it's limitations.
Also, this is not a slam but there are some people who just enjoy being the turd in the punchbowl. Some will take notice, no?
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Gee Dave, you've gotten the "signgods" mad. Like tas, I believe cast to be overrated at times. I use Oracal 851 and 651. Never had the problems some of you mention here. Dont use 3m cause the 851 is better in my book. Avery is crap for sure.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
If we want to keep letterville "real" take a look at who started this thread...the same face,name and info that appear monthly in a national sign magazine giving advice,writing about letterhead meets,inviting people to letterville etc etc etc....so sorry if that makes him occupy a position in this industry that most here do not,and that fact should make him pay 4x's as much attention to whatever he posts here as anyone else does....sorry if experience has pretty much proven that if you want to be taken seriously you should act like it.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Many products today are "re-branded" in an attempt to corner other markets.
I think marketing folk try and instill a feeling of insecurity in people to maintain brand loyalty in a wide range of products across the board, whether its jeans, trainers or vinyl.
Dave found something he thought was interesting, and was enthusiastic to share it here, perhaps not so well researched. I was always under the impression 3M's Tartan vinyl was made by a manufacturer in Germany, I don't know who though, like Lever Bros making products for Calvin Klein, it doesn't make bad product, just another way for these huge corporations to compete.
We use some 3M products here, but found here that it was always a problem buying and building up loyalties with a company that made you buy from so many different distributors. I can't buystoneguard vinyl from a 3M Graphics Film distributor, and I can't buy 3M VHB tape or ScotchWeld from our vinyl distributors etc etc so end buying small amounts from several smaller outlets, instead of building up better discounts, and ordering all from the same place.
In Europe if you talk to Spandex here, they sell more calandered vinyl than cast, calendered is more popular than cast, "come on in the water's fine!" ( calendered vinyl is not a swearword)
Somebody made a comparison of $20 a roll, but didn't say what with, I did a truck 2 days ago using Avery 12 year cast, which is double the price of their 8-10 year cast which is double the price of their 7-8 year calendered, over here most people lease vehicles for 3-5 years, and if the surface is good why not use a product that works as well.
Here in a harsh climate warm in summer and very cold in winter we have found with some customers that they have destroyed cast vinyl washing in the winter whereas the same colour in calendered has stayed put.
I use mainly avery, as we have so much stock, but like the Oracal range, although I prefer the 751 to the 651.
Dave is not president....(that's another story for another forum). He is just an enthusiastic signmaker, who writes whatever he does in SBI. Don't we all read between the lines when we read heavily (advertiser baised) articles in sign mags or take on board comments made here, but do a little research ourselves before passing judgement
posted
well... i just went to sarasota...apr 22- may 1. stopped in to some of my old accounts(intermediate vinyl was used) and they are ready for new lettering!!!!! gee i moved from sarasota in 1998......did these jobs that year or 96-97!!!! now how long do you want vinyl to last....and by the way....i got to redo these signs for my old clients....iam gona cut R.T.A. for them in the same intermediate i used in 1996-97!!!!!!! now thats customer loyalty!!!! i just got done with $6000 worth of corplast/intermediate vinyl signs for the baseball field....they are happy iam happy....as for using hp vinyl...yea i use it on a job that the client will request it after i tell him the differance in the longevity and price. and for hp that new 851 is some spiffy stuff!!!!
[ May 08, 2003, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
One thing I agree on in this little conversation is that when you are making temporary signs... it IS pretty silly to use HP vinyl. Why on earth would you pay for premium when the signs will be tossed or taken down in a short while. Sometimes Letterville is a funny place. I use intermediate vinyls for temp windows, corex, decals and a lot of different things. I also use HP for a lot of things.
And I don't think Dave deserved to be jumped all over. But then that is just me. Remember I am sweet and nice always.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
i have a roll of fdc vinyl and it says that it is 220 scotchcal and a 3m label on the box.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have to agree with David Wright. As a young man, I worked as a cook in a 4 star restaurant. Every so often, a plate would be returned with some kind of complaint (cold, overly spiced, etc.). The chef would hit the ceiling and read us the riot act. "But chef, it was only one meal out of 200", I said. "Yes, but for every one returned, there are another ten dissapointed customers who won't send theirs back." I can think of at least a dozen loyal customers I've gained from vinyl failures of my competitors. I use only cast vinyl (Calon II by Arlon) for exterior use, and intermediate calendared for interior use only. NEVER have had a complaint.
[ May 09, 2003, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Tim Whitcher ]
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
he he he I agree with Cheryl on this one. EVERYONE knows that... Digital and Silkscreen prints,Cast and Calandered cut vinyls,Latex and Acrylic waterbased paint. Are ALL used,based on short term life expectancy! Every one of my customers want, and get, the best "BANG for thier BUCK" in design that advertise for them. Along with lasting duribility!
Thats right folks,..Enamel Lettering paint,applied on pre-coated Alumnium.
MY PERSONAL OPINION IS:"anything less.....is less"
hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Or maybe next to his lunch which consists of a 12 pack and a pickle.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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I use intermediate vinyls for temp windows, corex, decals and a lot of different things. I also use HP for a lot of things. 
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