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I have a current order for two 12" x 60" dibond signs. The background color is burgundy. Has anybody successfully applied a sheet of vinyl to use as a background color? I'm not setup very well to paint and have not had much luck with painting in the past.
I tried one last night and got lots of bubbles (using application fluid). Any ideas? Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Eason Admiral Signs Juneau, AK Posts: 62 | From: Juneau | Registered: Jan 2003
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"Luck" has nothing to do with painting. Dibond is dead easy because its smooth and needs no priming. Wipe the surface with Wilbond chemical deglosser (available at any paint store) and roll on a coat of One-shot maroon. Nothing to it.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Cam, the other night I took a piece of scrap dibond and tried rolling one-shot. I used a small foam roller on one section and a cheap foam brush on another. Both looked pretty bad.
I didn't use any type of a deglosser, just scothpad. Is it possible to get a pretty decent finish rolling one-shot (at least close to sprayed)? Do you thin it out any? - Steve
-------------------- Steve Eason Admiral Signs Juneau, AK Posts: 62 | From: Juneau | Registered: Jan 2003
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Steve, Cams right on this one, use a very fine scotch brite pad, scuff lightly, wipe down with a tack rag, clean with a good quality cleaner, I use Glass cleaner. Then roll with a good quality foam roller. But here's the secret, you will notice at first that there's bubbles in the paint, wait about 10 or 15 minutes and with the same roller, re-roll with out any more paint, but just use the weight of the roller and roll toward you, just once, don't go back and forth, re-rolling I find knocks down the bubbles.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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A couple of thoughts here. If you're not comfortable with paint or set up for it then find a good auto body guy in your town to become friends with. You want to sell a durable sign with a quality finish then go with a two part hardened enamel.
As for rolling 1-shot. I can lay down a nearly perfect finish with throw away foam rollers but that is from many years of developed technique. I would never tell you its a simple goof proof thing to do. You better practice on scraps before attempting it on a good piece of Dibond.
12" x 60" vinyl can be done and you should get good results. It too requires some practice and experience to get it down without a lot of bubbles.
All I can suggest to you is practice all these techniques because they will all have there place in making signs.
As an aside. I recently discovered another source of Dibond like material that blows Dibond away as far as color selections go.
This product even comes in many stone finishes, wood patterns and all of your primary colors and then some. The sample kit I requested came with nearly fourty different sizes and color samples...
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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After rolling on the paint you will have some bubbles. Let the paint set for a few minutes and then take a foam brush and very lightly skim the top of the paint film. This will break up the bubbles and you will have a very smooth surface. It takes a little experimentation to know when to go back with the foam brush, but you'll catch on quickly. Of course, the weather has a lot to do with how fast the paint dries, so you will have to constantly adjust.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes you can put a piece of vinyl on that size. I do it all the time. Use the middle vertical hinge method and apply dry. Move your squeegie along as you go and don't let the vinyl touch until the squeegie has smoothed it down. Hopefully this makes sense. Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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The easy way, if you have a little overhang on the vinyl is to. Lay vinyl face down on clean, smooth table. Spray the vinyl, with fluid fairly heavy after removing the back. Spray the hell out of the Dibond (clean), and lay it face down on the table on top of the vinyl. Now they will suck together, so turn them over and squeeqee out by using one trip down the middle end to end then work from that line out to both sides. Using a correct amount of pressure it will work like a dream. The next day you can wrap the corners to get finish edges if you want. But you will have to wait until those edges are dryed back. Try a sample. It works great on small signs.
You might need to polish it with a auto clearcoat polish if you scratch the surface with the squeeqee, but you should keep some around anyway. 3M Makes one called Finesse.
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Jack, I gotta ask the stupid question...you are also using transfer tape on the vinyl right? I tried a similar approach last night. The result was lots of bubbles w/ fluid. I only sprayed fluid on the dibond. I'm guessing the random pattern which I squeeged was the problem. -Steve
-------------------- Steve Eason Admiral Signs Juneau, AK Posts: 62 | From: Juneau | Registered: Jan 2003
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Steve, I wouldn't use application tape if the Maroon is a solid panel. Unless there's letters cut out of it, you don't need to mask. But it shouldn't have mattered. Your bubbles must be coming from your squeege technique or not having enough app fluid. Its OK to flood the thing.
But then again, I wouldn't usually use any application fluid neither. My first choice is always to apply everything dry. Especially if the panel was smaller or if I could get another pair of hande to hold one end for about 10 seconds.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I should probably add that dry application is much easier to grasp when you've seen somebody do it. In dry app, squeege technique is everything. Not a big deal if using liberal app fluid though. You probably just didn't have enough.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dibond recommends acrylic laquer....for a finish. Yep laquer....thats what they told me second choice is automotive enamel with catalyst. Prime first then spray. they told me NOT to use one shot....
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Don't use a "random pattern" when applying vinyl, the trick is OVERLAPPING strokes. You can apply a piece of vinyl that size without transfer tape. Spray both the vinyl and the Dibond, wrap a piece of transfer tape around the squeegie and spray that too, this way it will slide easy on the vinyl without scratching it. Remove only half the liner and apply one half first, then do the other half. Hope this makes sense.
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The dibond people say not to use one-shot because they have not done testing with it, not because it doesn't work. The panels used for the big Bill Hueg wall mural in Belvidere in 1999 were dibond, ant the mural was painted with one-shot. To my knowledge there has not been a problem with adhesion.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I ussually flood the panel with RT, and with one hand spread teh RT all over the entire panel (no dry areas). Tack on end of the vinyl on the table just past the panel, and remove the backing while holding the other end of the vinyl above the panel. Lay the vinyl down gently, and use a roller instead of a squeegy to remove bubbles and excess RT. Trim edges as required, or wrap edges once RT has evaporated.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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I have found a window washing squeegee works well for large panels. Use plenty of application fluid on the panel and the vinyl and plenty under the blade of the squeegee. I use the Bronzeo/Jack Davis approach often. When everything is dry, you can trim the excess vinyl with an Olfa knife or razor blade, if you do not want to wrap it.
Bob mentioned Alpolic. I have used Alpolic for a couple of decades. I love the stuff. They also have mirror finishes for use indoors under the trade name A-Look. The Aluminum sheets on Alpolic are thicker than that on Dibond. Years ago, I could buy it for $1.00 per square foot from a company that used it to make clean rooms. I bought all their drop, often in pieces about 24" x 48". Sometimes, I would buy 900 SF of the stuff. It was cheaper than MDO for me and I used it everywhere. That source has since dried up and I had to switch to Dibond.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5107 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Laying vinyl on dibond or MDO is another way I've found for abusing a 60" laminator. I gotta say though, it goes on like a second skin (dry). I use just a little heat (~105f or lukewarm). It's a good method if you need to coat large or numerous panels. With smaller panels a speed press makes it easy. With out speedpress I would hinge it and use a 6" hard roller to apply (dry)-no transfer tape.. slightly oversize the vinyl and trim after..
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i'll defer to the more experienced guys here, but i just wanted to add that i've found the paint seems to roll on more easily and flow out more smoothly if you add a bit of reducer, "Edge", "Penetrol", or other flow agent. 1-shot straight from the can can be a little thick.
Also, i've found that the paint seems to work better if you use less paint, rather than more paint. (less and more are relative, but when i started out i thought a LOT of paint was better, and i've learned that it really doesn't take much to cover).
Now that I've sort of learned how, I'd paint rather than use vinyl, because it costs less. 1 oz of paint is $1 plus, a buck for the roller cover, for a total of $2. 10' of 15" vinyl is about $10. Labor is probably about the same -- both are less than the time to read this post. I'd use the vinyl only if I had to get the job done in one day.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Good point on costs Scooter, but when you factor in the prep & cleanup time, and also waste (how many partly used cans you throwing out, years later), it becomes more even. Then there's the RFN factor, with vinyl the panel is ready to use immediately.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Thank you for all of the replies. I figured that the only way to learn was to just jump in and try some of this great advice.
On painting with 1shot, I did this on several small panels of dibond. I used penetrol to thin the paint and it seemed to work well. I used a 6" foam roller and applied a thin, scratch coat. After about 10min, I rolled another and finally "tipped" out the air bubbles after that coat set for awhile. Other than the drying time, the end result looked pretty darn good.
I also used the opportunity to apply vinyl sheets as a background. After a couple of trys, the really wet application produced the best results for me. Doing a dry-app, I struggled with air bubbles and some small creases.
Personally, I think that both methods have there merits and flaws. Once I got the hang of it, both methods could be done pretty quickly. I think that the paint produces a nicer end product although the vinyl is ready to use sooner. In the future I plan on painting when I have large areas and not pressed for time.
Thanks again to all who replied. I sure gained some great tips, hopefully a few others did also. Regards, Steve
-------------------- Steve Eason Admiral Signs Juneau, AK Posts: 62 | From: Juneau | Registered: Jan 2003
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Like Joe Rees, I don't use transfer tape when covering a flat panel with solid vinyl. I apply very wet. And after laying the vinyl, but before squeegeeing, flood the top of the vinyl. Wetness on both surfaces of the vinyl will allow the squeegee to glide smoothly and prevent it from marking the surface. You should be able to achieve absolute zero bubbles.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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