posted
well i just ruined all the edge decals i did for a van..i didn't have enough frog juice so i used krylon clear...well it wrinkled the vinyl and i'm running the suckers again...i'm tempted not to clear them but i know i'll be sorry in a year when they fade like h@ll.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Just clear them later when you get the juice. They may fade some, but not like "hell" I wouldn't think. I never clear any edge stuff & the Hawaiian sun is somewhat intense, but things look great after 3 or 4 years, so thats not so bad.
posted
Karyn...I have had that happen to me too...Kind of a bummer when it happens BUT at least you know that the clear is biting into the vinyl and won't pull off with the transfer tape.
If you were using a Krylon spray bomb try pulling way back from the surface and applying several light mist coats instead of one or two heavy coats.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
Has anyone had experience with FrogJuice 're-wetting' itself in the hot hot sun? I've heard stories about it going gummy/sticky in hot sun, but nothing really confirmed.
Karyn--with regards to your fading---are you using Gerber Foils? I kind of agree with Doug---I've done vehicles for years and seen no real problems at the 3 year point...
posted
Only fade problems I've had are the following... 1. Cheap vinyl, anything other than Gerber 220 or 3M Hi-Perf. 2. Cheap foil, anything other than Gerber. 3. Them F@#%ing power washers with dergreaser.... this requires educating the customer. Almost 10 years with my Edge and that is what I know at this point. Hey Karyn, how bout this weather huh????..... put 600 miles on the bike in the past 3 days..... yehaa!!
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
well it got done with krylon..i guess i must have put it on too thick...it sprays different than frog...i will get the one shot though..i trust all the powers that say its great. here it tis..for sh!ts & wiggles
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I had Gerber Foils fail after a little over a year, especially Sunflower Yellow, Orange, Red. That is why I now Clear coat, I've lost Thousands, that's right, Thousands of dollars using Gerber foils and Quantam Vinyl without clear coating, I just wish that when I started using these products, that the Manufacturer would have suggested that I'm going to have to clear coat, because they do fade, period.
I was using the bloody Vision Vinyl for a Lot of Vehicles, But I'll try not to anymore because that crap won't even last a year. They forgot to mention that to me also. And at the price they are charging for it, it should last 10 years.
I Know, I probably should have been using the 220 series, but with our Market, It's impossible.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
What fails first on the Gerber vision Neil? Is it a fade problem, or is it an inferior adhesive? I have not bought any yet, but sort of looked forward to trying it. Maybe not anymore though.
posted
Neil, I believe the vision is warrantied for only a year (with proper application). The main problem is what Doug was reffering to; that the design of the material causes it's failure. The holes in the perf allow dirt, grime, water, all kinds of things to lift the window film. Using the right laminate and installation techniques you should be able to get better results than less than one year. Proper prep/cleaning is a must. We use a 3M sealant on the edges to seal in the loose open edges. Also, many installers don't know to cut the film about 1/2" from the window gasket to allow for the sealer. These are a few minor steps that will help prolong the install of the window vision films.
-------------------- Scott Pagan Admark Graphic Systems Admark Motorsports Graphics 9700 Metromont Ind Blvd Charlotte, NC 28269 www.admarkgraphics.com Posts: 325 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
i'm talking foils that fade!! and YES i do use only gerber foils and 220 hp vinyl...pay up the a$$ for it so it does indeed pi$$ me off when one of my jobs go by faded to crap...yellow is the worst...that's why i don't think the edge is the best thing since slice bread...it's great for jobs that are for 3 years or less..i realize digital imaging isn't quite to the 5-7 year mark..that's why i will stick to hp vinyl when i know my customer is gonna have the vehicle for more than 3 years...i pretty much use the edge for pain in the butt jobs that have fades, radiant fills, outlines and shadows and pictorials. so that's why i do clear everything edged that goes outta my shop! sorry to pee in your cherrios fellow edge owners..i'm just being honest.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I'm glad you said it Karen, Because I was lead to believe that I was the only person having this sort of problem. I know the difference in that, always did. They want you to send samples everytime you have a problem... there's no need to, they know they have a problem and they won't attend to it, it's a simple as that.
Getting back to the vision vinyl, All the colors fade, in a very short period of time, it has nothing to do with application. I do install this product correctly, and it will still come off in spots.
It was just yesterday that I had to take it off a Van after only a year because the red completely dissapeared off of the window portion of the job, and guess who had to absorb the cost.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I don't sell the Clear vision anymore either. Same as Neil, no colours seem to last.
I am also siding with Karyn. I don't trust any warm coloured prints to last any more than a couple years (if that). And that's up here in the hot, sunny Canadian climate.
I clear everything that will be in use more than a couple years.
2 year - Pink 3 year - CMYK, Transparent, 60% of the spots 4 year - 35% of the spots 5 year - Black and Grey
Quoting from Gerber's Sales Lit; " These durability results are based on accelerated weather tests we believe to be reliable" A significant decrease in performance life of printed graphics may be experienced when graphics have been applied to surfaces which are other than vertical, or when exposed to harsh outdoor conditions, pollutants, chemicals, abrasive contact, or frequent washings. Climatic variations will yiled varying results."
So, to go back to Steve/GEET's post, washing or the manner of washing can make a huge difference. Many MANY commercial vehicle applications simply are not washed with Soap and Water these days----chemicals chemicals chemicals to get the job done faster.
Lamination when it comes to durability is always a good idea for a more harsh environment---lots of good ways to do it.
Neil, if you're having problems with EDGE prints at the one year mark, I'd be putting my graphics on HP vinyl, not Cal, regardless of the price. I hear what you're saying man, but is the difference really that much more in price when you get down to it?---I know, 3 times the cost for HP over Cal, but you also don't want to be re-doing or get bad mouthed.
I usually tell my customers that EDGE graphics on a Cal are great for up to 18 months---kind of like a bumper sticker grade product. HP vinyl EDGE graphics are more into the 3-5 year range.
posted
I've switched to Duracoat ribbons unless there's a color that only Gerber has. Print a 4-color process on 220 white with GSP ribbons, and then the same image on 220 with Duracoat ribbons. Do an alcohol rub test and notice which one comes off first. GSP comes off easier. Does that mean it's gonna last less? I'm not really sure, but I'm sticking with the Duracoat.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have a Fargo resin printer, works like the edge but prints on 12" x 26" sheets of vinyl. When I started noticing fading on my non clearcoated prints after 2 or 3 years I considered upgrading to a Edge, my biggest competitor has one....but after seeing that their Edge prints don't last any longer than my Fargo ones.....I think I'll save that 20 grand for something else.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ted I love my Edge, I just have to clear coat, it's no problem really. It's just that the prints don't last like they are suppose to. Yes using HP is cost prohibitive in my market, and like Karyn said It don't matter if you use HP, It still fades, so why use it? I've used Hp before and it faded for me as well.
I don't have the time to send in so called samples of every job that fades, It's a bloody pain in the Azz. You know the problems that we are having, and it would be nice if you guys would Aknowlege them and Give some kind of compensation for the money and Time that we lost, if you want I could start posting Photos of the Jobs that failed, I have a ton of them.
But like I said I do love my Edge, it's a money Maker, when you clear the Prints, if you don't....
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well, since I haven't hit the 3 year mark as an edge owner yet, I'm paying close attention here. I have bought wholesale edge prints from a shop who got there edge several years before me, so I do have some 4 years old jobs out there including my own sign, but I also want to keep learning & evolving my knowledge & production methods...
...So, what are the best UV protection methods? Frog juice from a can or spray has been mentioned, One Shot Clear seems to have a few solid votes here.
posted
The easiest thing I use to tell my edge customers is It will only last 2 years so they would know what to expect. I never had a problem with any of them becuse they knew right up front. So I used Zero 9 foils and Oracal 650 series. We actually has some graphics last well into the 4th year Surprisingly.. My 2 cents worth.
posted
My question is: How long will the prints last when you do clear it with One Shot? And do you have to spray it on or can it be brushed? I'm thinking of ordering printed graphics for an upcoming job (Town signs), but it has to last as long as possible. I would really appreciate some advice. Thank you.
posted
Have I been conspicuous by my abscence in this post, or what?!
Guys:
Gerber EDGE prints produced with GerberColor printed on suitable (for the job in question) Gerber EDGE READY materials are very durable (3-5 years), unlaminated/uncoated for most signage applications, period.
Certain applications and certain environments are more demanding and Gerber offer plenty of helpful recommendations for protecting the life of EDGE printed graphics under these circumstances.
If the application is vehicle graphics that will be subject to abrasion or relatively harsh cleaning chemicals, then the use of Gerber Abrasion Guard or GerberGuard overlaminate is strongly recommended. This is not a tightly kept secret.
Gerber have spent alot of time and money testing, adjusting print settings, retesting, fine-tuning and approving all of their Matched Technology System components in order to ensure that -- when used together -- they provide consistantly superior results.
Plenty of people do seem to be using the 1-SHOT UV Clear with good results, but this is not officially sanctioned by Gerber. Neither is using 3rd party foils on 3rd party vinyls. If you do, you are on your own.
Other applications to be wary of: Any application involving non-vertical exposure Apparently (according to industry friends in Atlantic Canada...not confirmed by Gerber) salty sea air.
Lotti:
(Hi! How are you?)
I would suggest that you ask your EDGE graphics supplier for their input regarding clear coating or overlamination. Chances are that (assuming they're using all Gerber materials) they will tell you that clear coating is uneccessary, based on their experience. On the other hand, if your customer is willing to pay a little extra for graphics protection, what's the harm? Your EDGE Graphics supplier can easily apply whichever Gerber product is most suitable for the job.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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What do you know regarding warranty when using this new UV Guard laminate? I'm bidding on a job that requires me printing spot black onto 220 metallic silver. If I use a cold laminator and apply the UV Guard, and any part of it fails....what would I expect as far as reimbursement from Gerber? would it just be materials? I need these graphics to last 3 years. They would be going on hard plastic tire covers for a major automobile manufacturer. I don't even want to consider a possibilty of failure on this one.
Thanks.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
A couple of things that you might find interesting if not completely relevant.
I have a bumper sticker on the back of my truck that was printed, gerber ruby red on Oracal 651 series white. It is I suppose a vertical application. I made the sticker for the specific purpose of testing the longevity of the red foil.
Two plus years later it still looks fine. It has faded a little but overall is just fine. I'll say that I don't wash my truck often so chemicals are not really an issue.
btw, the bumper sticker reads... "Excuse me for driving so close in front of you !"
The other and possibly more interesting test is my coffe mug I have been using also for over 2 years. It has a multi color edge print on Oracal clear (I think 651 series). The mug is plastic and insulated. This thing takes more abuse than any other item in my shop and must have gone through the dishwasher a thousand times and it gets microwaved pretty regularly too.
I would say that the edge stuff is pretty durable.
I think three years outdoors is a long time for anything to last. I don't warranty any of my work for near that long. There are too many variables involved that are completely out of my control. Thinking about it, I don't believe many people would expect a decal to last that long.
I should mention that I don't care for Gerber products very much and I would never buy an edge. All for reasons not related to print longevity.
Later,
Steve
-------------------- Steve Aycock Designs 3489 Oswald St. Johns Island, SC zaor@warpdriveonline.com Posts: 124 | From: Charleston, SC | Registered: Feb 2003
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Here's the product bulletin for Gerber UVGuard. The idae of this stuff is to put a physical barrier between things that might abrade or attack the printed graphic chemically...plus a bit of UV inhibitor to give some extra protection against fading caused by UV radiation. I don't think anyone will tell you how much longer it will make your EDGE prints last, definitively, however.
The "new" overlam (called "StrikeGuard") is a slightly different animal...highly conformable, for use in wrapping decalled helmets and the like.
I might be more concerned about you using silver metallic for this job than anything else. Going by memory (having problems accessing gspinc.com all of a sudden), I think it is only warranteed for 3yrs outdoors. Most metallics have a shorter life expectancy, compared to standard cast films. Again - going by memory - you might want to check out Gerber Stardust Silver...unique look and (I think) rated for 5 years.
Please check out Gerber's website to verify what I'm telling you. My memory isn't what it used to be.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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My work van has Oracal 651 w/Edge graphics. Two years old, still crisp and bright. Not garage kept, and machine washed at LEAST once a week....my two cents too!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
These were taken 8:00 AM This morning, this a lit sign out front. The Names Signs1st is suppose to have a Sunflower yellow Gradient fill like the North facing side, the Southern facing one has no fill, it's dissapeared. This sign has never been through a car wash, And I can tell you I have never climbed up 20ft in the Air to wash it with any harsh Chemical. Also it was intstalled about 16 months ago.
At the same Time the Magenta is perfect on both sides, there's No Fading at all.
There's a problem with "some" of the Gerber Foils, period! Certain colors don't last like they are suppose to, period. Like Sunflower yellow, olympic blue, Red, and some others.
But if you clear them with a UV Clear like superfrog or 1shot, then it should fix the problem.
I just wish that I was made aware of this problem when I bought this Edge machine 4 years ago, cause I was "Never" informed of this potential problem when I was given the sales pitch. It was suppose to last 5 years, According to the Salesman, and also the Literature that I was given at that time.
I know, I probably should have done more Homework, and Talked to more edge users.
And By the way, I still love my edge, I just clear coat the stuff, it's really no problem, When I used to Airbrush everything I cleared that as well, and it gives the same effect, it gives the Graphics more Depth, it also makes the colors more vivid, actually even if the graphics lasted 10 years, I probably would clear certain vehicle graphics anyway, for the effect.
Here is a Job we did a couple of months ago, the photos were taken with my digital camera in their shop with no special equipment or even lights, and they are clear coated. I know there's a lot of lettering on there but they wanted it.
[ May 02, 2003, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Rob that's a very Good Question, I'm not really sure what it was printed on, I know that it was'nt printed on HP Vinyl, that's for sure. And I don't expect to get compensated for this Job, But all the other jobs that failed when I used all Gerber materials, and they were numerous, that's another matter. I don't have samples of all those Jobs that I replaced, that's too bad I know, cause that's the part that bugs me, that is how they get around it. Not everyone keeps everything.... BUT.....
This sample of my sign is suppose to clear any doubt about the durability of certain foils, especially Sunflower Yellow and Reds, I Know for certain that it was Gerber Sunflower yellow, because that's the only manufacturer who makes it. What makes this really interesting is that Ted said that Pink has a durability of only 2 years. But the pink on my sign has no fading at all, and it's an aftermarket Foil. But then again it's Majenta and not Pink.
[ May 02, 2003, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
This is an actual 4cp print on GSP 225 with Gerber foils,mounted on aluminum. I had this on a non vertical, (maybe 15º off vertical), surface which was an east facing roof of my shed.
The tbottom half is just printed the top half has been hit with FJ, applied with a foam brush. It had been on the roof for 4 years.
This is an image that we reprint often and the juiced part still matched the new prints perfectly.
A year ago I had stopped using FJ because of some chipping which occured as the vinly was cut the next day. I had two jobs which it wrecked, one of which walked back in the door yesterday. I'm going to mix up some screen ink, touch it up and overlaminate the whole thing.
I ran a test yesterday, about 6 foil colors, each with a small overprint and frogged it. I just cut it up with my exacto and there was no chipping at all. Maybe I can chalk up the original failure to a bad roll of vinyl or foil but I'm still a tad gunshy.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1358 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm afraid that I've got to draw a line in the sand here.
I have personally offered to assist you in submitting claims with Gerber and have offered to act as your personal advocate in your quest to obtain compensation for these apparent product failures.
You are unwilling to provide anything that I have requested in the way of the types of samples or documentation necessary to substantiating your claims.
You've been offered assistance and have not taken it.
You have plainly stated that filing a claim is not worth the effort. This is YOUR DECISION. Not mine, and not Gerber's...So stop complaining about it!
To insinuate that you have been ignored, mis-treated or mislead is PURE HOGWASH, Neil...and I take offence to it.
The VAST MAJORITY of the materials you purchase for your EDGE are 3RD PARTY foils and VINYLS. From what I can tell, you don't keep good records of which materials were used on which jobs. How can you blaim Gerber for failures that quite plainly could be due to your choices in using 3rd party products?
The offer to assist you still stands, Neil...but you've got to be willing to help yourself. If you aren't, please refrain from blaming everyone else.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
That's great Bill, I'm happy that the Gerber Foils Last up to 5 years without lamination, ya right. Just look at the red, it's gone! How did that Happen? Huh? Oh by the Way how many Car Washes did you drive you're shed through?
My own company van that I had for three Years, faded Twice in that Time, Twice, I had to do my Van Twice using Gerber Foils and Quantam Vinyl.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
A quick follow up on yesterdays juice test. Seems I had missed slicing through one color combo, the one which gave me trouble last year in fact. Intense blue overprinted, in this case, over silver.
I just shot this macro with my Nikon 990. It shows the chipping where I cut the vinyl with my exacto knife. I printed 10 other colors with small overprints and this is the only combo that chipped.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1358 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Jon with respect, In the first year and a half I used nothing but GERBER foils and products, I Do understand what you are saying about not sending samples, I completely understand it. But that being said it's not Hogwash that there is a problem with these foils, there is.
And you are right about trying to go to bat for me, I don't have samples of all the Jobs that failed, it's too bad really, and I Apologize for that. But sometimes it's easier to just repair the job and get on with it
You know I could be out to lunch on this one, But how many people keep records on all the jobs they do, I really was'nt aware that I should be doing that at the time, and I guess that's my fault.
I will now stop complaining like an old man.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Bill Modzel: A quick follow up on yesterdays juice test. Seems I had missed slicing through one color combo, the one which gave me trouble last year in fact. Intense blue overprinted, in this case, over silver.
I just shot this macro with my Nikon 990. It shows the chipping where I cut the vinyl with my exacto knife. I printed 10 other colors with small overprints and this is the only combo that chipped.
Niel, I am not complaining about the fading on the non-coated print. This was exposed in a non-vertical, non-warranted orientation. It is amazing what protection the frog juice added though.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1358 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just one last comment on this and I'll shut up.
I LOVE THE EDGE, And support from ND Graphics has been great, they can only do so much, cause they have their hands tied as well, sorry Jon If I misinformed anyone. You know that I'm a big fan of the Edge, I honestly believe if you clear coat them, then they will last a lot longer.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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The SIMPLEST solution is to ALWAYS use Gerber Matched Technology System components.
By using 3rd part foil and (mostly) 3rd party vinyl -- and by not keeping records -- you make it awfully difficult to accept that the problems you have experienced can easily be attributed to Gerber...which only strengthens the need to supply samples for analysis.
Good record keeping is a MUST, in my opinion, regardless of what manufacturing process a business employs. It doesn't take alot of extra time to record batch numbers on your work orders...but it does take discipline.
Why record batch numbers on a job-by-job basis?
Manufacturers keep "retains" of all batches they produce. I'm willing to bet that if you were in a position to call ND GRAPHICS and say, "I'm having some failures with jobs printed using this batch number of GerberColor on this batch number of Gerber/3M 220 White" WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. We could relay the information to Gerber, who in turn could use their retains to test the specific batches in question, confirm that there is (or isn't) a problem, and respond accordingly.
Simple and effective, no?
So why not start today?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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