posted
Anyone experience problems with Avery A5 vinyls?
Having to redo alot of projects because adhesive will not stick properly. Used RapidTac as Avery suggested but still have random problems.
Local supplier says to "not waste their time" and Avery corporate seems to be playing games with my complaints (over two months now and no resolution).
posted
Yes I did have problems with the adhesive also. It would not stick to painted MDO.....or banners unless I heated it up with the heat gun. Avery did send me a whole roll tho, and I have not had any problems since. "thanks again Avery!"
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I quit using Avery vinyls years ago after repeated failures of their high performance cast and reflective vinyls.
The high performance cast would come off MDO, Aluminum or any other substrate I put it on. I had letters blow off on the way to the jobsite. Their reflectives would delaminate, leaving the adhesive on the panel and the vinyl missing.
I kept asking for a refund but they would only replace the material and the problems continued to reoccur. I have a few hundred yards (and over a thousand dollars) of useless material that I do not dare to use anywhere.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Problems of a different sort- I had a whole roll of 800 series vinyl which no matter how many blades I swapped, nor how lightly I set them, cut into and lifted the backing liner as you tried to weed them. With other vinyls it was never a problem, but this was a disaster and a terrible waste of time. I bought a roll of Real Estate Red from them a year earlier which wouldn't cut through on the fourth corner of small letters. It only worked on letters over 4" tall. Anything smaller remained stuck to the background. The suppliers were verbally helpful, but did NOTHING to help by replacing or offering to replace the stuff. I only stick with them because one customer uses a shade of cream that only they supply. Best wishes, Ian S-K
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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We switched all our Avery A5 to Oracal 651 and A8 to Oracal 851. Better pricing, much better appearance, improved weeding and cutting, no bad or dirty punching, and so far no adhesive failures.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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I have had no problems with Avery adhesives. I have had problems with edge print pulling off when transfer tape is removed. Sounds like your supplier needs to care more.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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One of my customers brought back his truck last week because the yellow vinyl I put on was peeling off (Avery). That is very unusual for a job to fail. I'm thinking it was just a fluke (I hope).
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Several suppliers I use are switching to the Avery lines from Arlon. Many now also carry Oracal.
I had been considering trying Avery(because of color selection and pricing), but am now rethinking because of the above experiences. If any others who have good/bad experiences with Avery are reading this, PLEASE post here.
Any good reports on Oracal?- they seem to have a few fans on this board. I may start a new vinyl poll type thread to try to get a wider opinion on this.
-------------------- Alan Dearborn Dearborn Graphics Hampton, NH USA Posts: 271 | From: NH USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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I have used Avery since they bought out Universal, which worked fine for me.
A representative from Avery called me about a color swatch I requested recently and we got to talking. She said ALL Avery material should have their name on the back of the liner now. If it doesn't say Avery on the back, then it isn't Avery.
This caused me to start asking questions of my suppliers that advertise Avery in their catalogs and brochures. Well, guess what, SOME of the colors are Avery, but they either convert their own materials or buy various cast and calender films from a variety of companies. So, although you think you are getting one brand for all colors, they are mixing and matching, (probably for price reasons) and we are blaming the company listed in their catalog. Some suppliers have changed totally from what they say they are handling to some cheaper product. I have found this recently with Alumalite too. I request Alumalite and they "substitue" with something else of lower quality. I spend way too much time analizing my orders to make sure I get what I am suppose to get.
Always look at the name on the liner paper to make sure it is the brand you are suppose to be getting.
Pam, Pam's Signs
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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We've (Dad) been Avery distributors for at least 12 years. Before that we distributed Arlon/Calon films. We've never had a failure with Avery in all that time. We've never had a sign shop complain in all that time either. I don't understand what is happening to some of you guys. If it had been happening to us we'd have quit Avery a long time ago. It could be like Pam said, no?
posted
I used some A5 two years ago on my mailbox, white letters on a black box, it's shrinking and curling terribly. That was from a 50 yard roll....makes me wonder what's going on with all the other jobs I did with that roll
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Isn't A5 a calender film? Cast and Calender films are made differently and I always understood that Cast films were made for long term outdoor use, but not Calenders. Calenders, as I understood, were for indoor use or short term outdoor use. I will use calenders on Coroplast signs, but not trucks or board signs. The calenders to not have the "memory" that cast films have and seem more brittle. Also, this is Michigan, so I guess a lot depends on the climate too.
Pam, Pam's Signs
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
Actually over here in Europe most people use calendered on outdoor signs, Avery's 5-7 year calendered was called 8800, then 600 then 700 series, and now new 700HP supposedly a totally revamped calendered vinyl with a life up to 8 years.
We have sold almost only Avery material for over 10 years, I have had more problems with their 800 cast series than anything else, that maybe similar to A8 in the US, its now sold as a cast film with life UP to 10 years, and then 900 supercast up to 12 years.
WE had a customer that managed to damage 800series medium red when washing his vehicle fleet in winter here, we changed to 700 series, end of problem.
Also had a couple of failures with one cast vinyl lifting off another (no overlapping edges), and with their silver metallic (not chrome, polyesters etc) normal silver cast, have pics of the glue left on the vehicle surface amd the vinyl peeling up after 4 years.
I think it could have been a roll a distributor had abit longer than they should have or just a bad batch.
On the whole its a good product, at the end of the day its stickyback plastic, and expected tp stand up to all sorts!!
I think its uneccessary to put a 12 year cast on a vehicle thats leased for 3-5 years, their are some great films out their both calendered and cast that hold the test of time, Oracal 751 Mactac and Avery 700 (A7).
Any of you using Averys new Surface Cleaner? I think its a citrus based product works great.
1. Cast vs. calendared films. In its simplest definition, the difference is in how they're made. Cast vinyl is liquified using heat and solvents then sprayed against a "casting sheet". When solid again it has the molecular memory of the sheet it dried into thus lacking any tendency to shrink through aging into some other form.
Calendared vinyl, including what Oracal calls extruded vinyl, involves feeding a lump of vinyl through steel rollers to make it into a sheet. This technique has built into it the molecular memory of the lump it started out as. So as it ages, it will shrink. If it shrinks it will crack and peel up.
2. Other factors of durability rest with the quality of the chemistry of the vinyl and additives that may be used along with different dyes. So if you're comparing a $50 roll of vinyl to a $150 roll, which one do you think has the better quality ingredients in the film and the adhesive? The adhesive is also a feature and variations are plentiful along with better quality and worse quality. For example, Gerber uses a different adhesive on their 3M 220 vinyl than 3M does. It is somewhat less aggressive thus easier to apply.
3. We used our first Avery cast vinyls back in the early 80's when they were called FasCal and came through an Avery division called Fasson. Even then, stock colors had quality control problems with both the adhesive aggressiveness and uniformity of thickness in their roll stock.
I recall a roll of Interstate Green that had an adhesive that was so unaggressive that you could squeegee it to itself and pull it open just as easy as if it was a Post It note. On another occasion, we experienced an adhesive failure of the bottom layer of a four color graphic on a 4 x 8.
While I could count these problems on one hand against hundreds of rolls that performed flawlessly, I would point out that we have never had these types of failures with any brand of film other than Avery.
4. In the last ten years or so, we have watched as manufacturers began to make durability claims for their vinyls that grew longer and more outrageous every year. Ten years ago, intermediate vinyls were all sold as one to two year rated. Now their up to five to six years. Here in Florida, we compete with people and distributors that either don't know better or don't care that are lettering vehicles with Avery A5 or Oracal 651. These graphics typically fail in one to two years while ScotchCal, Avery and Calon cast films outlive the vehicle.
The problem is the cost of the roll of vinyl along with the reassuring claims from the manufacturers that these films are "rated at 5 years durability". The actual cost per vehicle difference is minor ..... $10 to $20 more to use cast vinyl. But to go from Avery A5 to A8 is to pay more than three times the cost for the roll.
[ April 27, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Fred Weiss ]
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Can anyone tell me if avery use some kind of water based adhesives. Many years ago when I only used "Arlon-Calon" I had to buy in some avery as they had the logo color I required. The job was a price board out the front of a swimming pool. I was requested to place a sheet of clear acryllic over the top to prevent little fingers picking at the tape whilst queing to go in. During the winter months naturally enough the whole thing sweatted and condensed up, consequently the two surfaces stuck together. When I pulled them apart all the calon stayed on the sign and all the Avery was stuck to the back of the clear sheet which led me to believe that the moisture must have made the Avery let go. I have never used Avery since, except for BP work because they gave Avery the contract for supply of their colors world wide.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Fred- Thank you for the very good explanation of cast vs calendered.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I guess my biggest concern is the apparent "lack of concern or interest" both on the part of my local supplier and the Avery folks. I guess I expected better.
My problems occured with various colors of A5. Since most all rolls were purchased at the same time, could be an issue at the warehouse ....i.e. "old" vinyl. Maybe an Avery rep will read these posts and take an interest.
Thanks again for the valuable input.
Thanks also Fred for the vinyl lesson.
[ April 27, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Stan McKinnon ]
quote:Originally posted by david drane: Can anyone tell me if avery use some kind of water based adhesives. Many years ago when I only used "Arlon-Calon" I had to buy in some avery as they had the logo color I required. The job was a price board out the front of a swimming pool. I was requested to place a sheet of clear acryllic over the top to prevent little fingers picking at the tape whilst queing to go in. During the winter months naturally enough the whole thing sweatted and condensed up, consequently the two surfaces stuck together. When I pulled them apart all the calon stayed on the sign and all the Avery was stuck to the back of the clear sheet which led me to believe that the moisture must have made the Avery let go. I have never used Avery since, except for BP work because they gave Avery the contract for supply of their colors world wide.
I don't think the problem was the result of water based adhesive ..... rather it was more likely the result of creating a sandwich of plastics and the sun going to work on it. I had a similar happening with 3M translucent films in an outdoor menu board at a fast food drive through. We had a clear Lexan sheet sandwiched between beige acrylic in the rear and clear acrylic in the front. The first time changes were needed, we found that about half the vinyl was more stuck to the clear acrylic than to the lexan.
The 3M translucent series has an adhesive that is extremely smooth and doesn't adhere as well as most other cast films. It would be logical to conclude that the Calon film simply had a better adhesive than the Avery in your situation.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I thought most people were aware of the manufacturing process of cast vs calendered, that said, (thanks Fred for the update).
I have had severe problems with Avery 800 cast film lifting in the folds of panelvans, I am talking about their latest version of that film.
Can post pics if needed.
I have used cast and stock (approx 250 rolls)mainly Avery 800 cast series, so wonder why this is? Competitive reps always say that this "cast" series is not true cast in the way of 900 series. I have always questioned this for the reasons Fred mentions in the differing manufacturing processes.
Today all vinyls are made thinner and then some. Avery used to be really good for layering, now if you put some reds over a black for example the red looks brown, if you overlap a larger piece say in corn yellow you now see the join much more because of the colour change on an overlap this never used to be like this.
These are experiences in the field, and using a cast film, and from those experiences, and the improvements in calendered premium films, wonder what to do in the future!
posted
Fred, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I find it difficult to put in words what I try to say. The substrate that I put the original work on was sheet metal coated in the factory designed for signs. I only use cast vinyl always. The finished work was framed (airtight) and sealed over with perspex and silicin sealed. After trapping the moisture I was asked to remove the top sheeting (perspex). the 2 surfaces had bonded fairly well together. As I peeled them apart ALL the Calon stayed on the original sheeting and ALL the Avery stayed on the clear sheet in reverse with no apparent glue left on the back. Admittedly the Avery was a studio color which always seems to give me pain. It was enough of a test to convince me that I was not dealing with the best product and I have hed no satisfactory response from any of the reps.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
David, I think I understood your description. While my example involved a clear Lexan sheet that carried the menu items, the principle is the same:
A vinyl graphic mounted to a substrate is enclosed in a cabinet behind and in contact with a clear plastic. The sun's effects now go to work over time (probably somewhat intensified) and a contact bond develops between the top of the vinyl and the back of the clear plastic. When one attempts to remove the substrate from the cabinet, the contact bond is greater than the adhesive bond to the substrate.
In my case, the 3M translucent vinyl showed no remaining adhesive tack on the letters that failed. This I attributed to the effects of heat and UV that were intensified.
In your case and in mine, the problem would be eliminated by changing the design to include a spacer between the substrate and the clear plastic.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
We also had a few adhesion failures with Avery, always at the end of a roll, as if the roll wasn't coated properly.
About a year ago I talked to a process engineer from Avery, He had been with the company only 3 years but was burned out and looking to leave. Apparently they don't have engineers in the factories around the world, and he is one of a group of only 14 that have to fly all over the world solving every production problem. He didn't have good things to say about the company and quality.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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Actually Stan, I do tune into the board a couple of times per week and I am concerned about the problems that you (and anyone else) have mentioned in the last few days. I encourage anyone that has had a problem to let us know. Your area distributor is the best place to start, but we at Avery are glad to work with you on your problem. In order to help, we need to have information from the roll, as well as samples and pictures (if available). The more information I have, the better equipped I am to find the underlying problem.
You and I had spoken several times regarding your problems. Samples were to be sent to me but I have yet to receive them. Please call me at my office or my cell (you have both numbers) so we can track down your package.
Tim Doyle 513-682-7670
-------------------- Tim Doyle Avery Dennison 8695 Seward Road Hamilton, OH 45011 Posts: 19 | From: Hamilton Ohio | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nice to see that Avery is listening on the other side of the Atlantic, I sent pictures to my distributor on a CD and they say they have sent them on to our Avery rep (Who quit at the end of last month).
Still no news from Holland, seems to be an uphill struggle from this side.
When I first talked to Carina from Avery about our problems she said it would be taken care of but go through your distributor....this was months ago.
I am not putting down Avery, we use Avery all the time, or just about, just get abit dissapointed with product failure and not much backup.
this is what we have had problems with and have to redo.
This was done using Avery new generation 800 cast vinyl
posted
We use the Avery FT1000 series (fleet series) vinyl. We buy it direct from Avery and have not seen a vinyl, including 3M that can touch it's quality.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have had trouble with Avery vinyl sticking upon application. With a dry application on a Fiberglass (Gelcoat) boat and also on Painted sign boards.
In addition to this Avery vinyl seems to be particularly thick. Requires greater blade pressure to cut and doesn't weed very well even when I can see blade marks down to the paper.
It seems like the vinyl is cut through but the adhesive is reattaching (sp) itself making it difficult to weed especially small items and thin lines.
Avery vinyl (when I used it regularly working for someone else.) often had splices in the roll. Sometimes more than one splice. I consider this unacceptable.
Last thing, Avery vinyl is nowhere near opaque. Any light color on a dark background becomes a shade darker if not another color alltogether.
I personally use Oracal. No splices, no problems, that I am aware of. All the rolls are particularly uniform in color, adhesion etc... though they also are not as opaque as I might like they are much better than what I have experienced with Avery.
I do wish I could get shorter rolls from Oracal. (10 yd.) I can do 50yds. of most colors. However...this week I have some 4" numbers to make in pink. I really don't want to order a 50 yd. roll of pink. It will sit on the shelf too long to be economical.
That's my two dollars (inflation).
Steve
-------------------- Steve Aycock Designs 3489 Oswald St. Johns Island, SC zaor@warpdriveonline.com Posts: 124 | From: Charleston, SC | Registered: Feb 2003
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I use Avery exclusively. I have had one problem with a job I did on a pickup truck, the design had flames with really pointed end tips, and when the guy washed it, they started to peel up. I went back with a edge sealing pen and fixed it.
On one of the posts that mentioned using Rapid Tac on Avery A5 vinyl, I wouldn't. For A5's and metallic vinyls, Rapid Tac II works best. I had a trailer job with A8 black copy with gold metalic outlines and used Rapid Tac and it took a LONG time before it let the metallic vinyl stick properly. Since finding out that Rapid Tac II was the stuff to use on A5 and metallics, I have had no troubles.
[ April 29, 2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Tony B ]
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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Do you have no distributor who sell by yard?? Here in Switzerland I usually buy by meter! I have even a distributor who sell Scotchcal by half meter! Spandex/Gerber sell by meter here! Even the low grade Vinyl are sell by meter!
-------------------- Desire Rusovsky SDG Signs rue du Lac 24 1342 Le Pont Switzerland desire@sdgsigns.com http://www.sdgsigns.com Posts: 218 | From: Le Pont / Switzerland | Registered: Mar 2002
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I contacted Avery with my concern (not really a complaint at that time) back in Feb of this year. This was after no help from local distributor. After speaking with Avery, a sample was requested and I mailed it promptly. After several followup emails, finally connected again and was told...sorry can not locate sample...let us look and we'll be in touch. Well, you guessed it....no word from Avery.
So my Avery vinyl "concern" has become an Avery vinyl "complaint" due to their poor customer service.
Their recommended application procedure was followed to the letter.
I guess I'm still sorta old fashioned....I thought you satisfied the customer first, and then looked to cure the problem for the future. Guess I'm wrong.
posted
Try Oracal 651 series its priced nice and I have rairly or never ran into a problem with their vinyl as for HP Vinyl I perfer the Nicshen I have never had a problem with theirs. But I only use the short rolls 10yds... I wonder if the problems with the A5 and A6 rolls are from sitting in the warehouse to long Who knows how old it is.. They say 2 year shelf life but if they had it at the warehouse for a 1 plus years whats the life..
I have always believed that my issue was a basic one --- the vinyl had been sitting on the warehouse shelf too long.
If that is the case in my situation it would explain the reluctance to get involved on the part of the distributor. But the reluctance of the manufacturer makes me ponder other thoughts as well.
posted
Part of the problem also is that a lot of their distributors do their own slitting and punching. When we still used Avery we received many rolls of material with chad and paper dust all throughout the roll. Not much good for Edge printing.
The other problem we had was their very thin dried out liner which would often tear on the first pass through our plotters. We pointed this out to a visiting Avery rep several months before electing to phase it all out. We never did see any change or get any feedback.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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