Manufacture a frame out of 1 1/2" square tube to bolt the sign to (carriage bolts).
Sleeve in 1 1/4" "feet" (1 1/4" stub about 6" long with 1/8" or 3/16" 1 1/14" strap welded to it flush to one side and abour 2" to other side).
Make the frame 2" ssshorter than the span you need to cover...slide in the "feet"(ahead of time) Drill your first hole...lift into place ...loosly bolt it and mark your other three holes...swing it to the side dill other holes ...insert anchors and bolt into place. The feet will make all adjustments for out of square building and or column and involve a minimum of thought or measure.
Time to make frame? (1/2 hour maybe)
Install time (15 minutes or so) so what if it takes a half hour.
Beauty of this install ? nothing to delaminate... and it's much stronger than what you describe... looks professional from fron or back...don't want to see the frame? cover it with a piece of sheet aluminum painted asme color as sign...
voila
If you're interested let me know I'll fax a detail...really simple!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
You can also make your frame with the horizontal legs about 10' long and give it to the stone masons. They can inset it into their structure as they build.
I do this regularly with our stone mason. Of course, I have confidence that he will center it and set it level. He is as picky about his work as I am about mine.
When we do a sign with two columns, we have a monolithic concrete base under both columns, tied together with rebar. The base will be below grade between the columns so the concrete doesn't show. I dig piers under each column and bell out the bottoms of the piers as well as the concrete between the columns. This makes sure that the whole sign is tied together and helps lock it in place.
The soil around here moves so much, it is common to see adjacent columns leaning different directions. Some extra care in the foundation process goes a long way towards preventing those problems.
A few years ago, a customer wanted to save $500 by having his stone mason install the columns, rather than ours. A couple of years later, the sign was about to fall over. He called, asking me if I could fix it. I told him fixing it was out of my realm of expertise but I could have prevented it for $500. I told him to call a foundation repair company, maybe they could jack it up, pour a pier under it and salvage their sign.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wayne, I think you are on the right track with the Dibond. It is simple, effective and very strong, 1/4” Diabond, laminated to 1” SignFoam will get you over 100 mph of wind load.
If you can spare a few inches of sign, you can have instant, integrated fasting. If you make the SignFoam 93” as opposed to 96”, you can have 1.5” of aluminum flange on both sides. Have “ L” brackets mounted to the columns and through-bolt.
Regards Joe
-------------------- "I don't bother saying anything that doesn't take a long time to say"
posted
We are in the Dallas, TX area, so our ground doesn't freeze much, however, the soils around here soak up lots of water in the wet seasons and dry out and crack during the arid times. Most of our movement is moisture related.
Also, there is plenty of shoddy, "do it quick and cheap and get out of here" workmanship in this area, as I'm sure is common all over.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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So, is it probably better to drill and insert masonry anchors at install time or cast something into the masonry. If you put anything into it when laying the blocks it would have to go into a mortar joint anyway. Then they would have to lay the stone veneer around it...right?
The site is about 150 miles away, I will probably never see it, and they will be installing it.
Joe, would the Dibond flex a little in the wind?
Do you glue yours on with epoxy or Gorilla glue? Thanks
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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The Dibond/SignFoam laminated together would be quite ridged. I don’t like Gorilla Glue for laminating large surface areas, it bonds well but its tough to keep consistent thickness due to the expansion. Epoxy won’t expand but is so brittle that any movement has the potential to “pop” the lamination apart.
You may want to try a urethane adheasive/sealent …..like say, oh …..our Sign•Grip38T1! It comes in a caulking tub, its moisture cured, and incredibly strong. It will remain ever-so-slightly flexible to absorb any movement. You can get it from you SignFoam supplier, or you can get something like it from 3M at a Home Depot.
Regards, Joe
-------------------- "I don't bother saying anything that doesn't take a long time to say"
posted
What about "glassing" two aluminum angle brackets across the back of the foam. If you have the masons build two cross beams you can bolt the sign in afterwards. Easy to do, easy to remove to fix if it's ever necessary, makes the foam stronger.
-------------------- Mike Pulskamp Pulskamp Arts Sacramento, CA mpulskamp@earthlink.net Posts: 165 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
As far as the masons installing the frame as they work is concerned, they can chip out a section of block wherever the frame goes. As they clad the block with stone, they will be shaping the stone as they go along, so working around your frame wherever it sits won't be any big deal to them. Most block is 8" between mortar joints.
Your sign height is 48", which is a multiple of 8". They will probably place the bottom leg on top of a block and fit and shape the the next course of block at that joint at the top of the frame. Be sure they fill the interior voids with mortar and rubble, it will make your structure that much more robust.
Laminating a backing or glassing in angles to the HDU is a good idea. That panel will be a fairly good size sail and will be prone to being snapped without sufficient rigidity being engineered into it. Bolting it at the corners would not be enough without the extra support of a backing or angles. HDU is a fine product, however its flexural strength is rather low.
I have also used Monte's system. It works just as well as he says and allows flexibility for uneven surfaces such as stone. I have usually done it that way for retrofitting to existing columns. While the masonry work is still green, I am reluctant to do too much drilling into the stone or place too great amount of stress or weight on that exterior cladding until it has cured some.
As mentioned in one of the posts, be sure you also make the sign face removable for future service and/or replacement if the business changes hands or the sign gets damaged in some way.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wow, I didn't realize you could do it so many ways. I will probably use a combination of two or three of your methods. I'm just concerned that what I build might not fit what they build.
Monty, are those anchors that you use long enough to reach through the stone veneer into the block? How do you compensate for any uneven stone? Will I need to have the stonemasons leave some kind of square voids in the stone so that the feet can be mounted against the block? Will two feet on each side be sufficient?
If they were to cast square tubing into the masonry, would steel rust and leave stains on the surface of the stone? If they were aluminum, would they react with the chemicals in the mortar? I've seen where it reacted with portland cement.
Thanks everyone
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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The lintels used to support brick work over windows and doors are usually red oxide primed steel. I have also had frames built of steel and had them hot dip galvanized. If you get a good coat of quality primer and finish coat on the metal, either Aluminum or steel, you should not have much in the way of problems with rust stains or reaction to the Portland.
If the masons acid wash the structure after they finish, they should be sure to rinse the acid off the metal quickly. Again, a good finish coat on the metal will help protect against attack by the acid. The acidizing is to clean up the stone and mortar smears. It really freshens up the job when finished and also forms a bit of protective barrier on certain materials that helps retard later efflorescence. It also dissolves some of the salts that cause efflorescence.
If this was my job and I was worried that things would fit, I would make the frame with the legs projecting and have them mortar it in as they went along. I would make my sign face at least a couple of inches shorter than the proposed space between columns.
I would also wrap the sign in plastic stretch wrap so the masons don't have to worry about slopping some mortar onto it. When they are done with the sign and the cleaning of the stone, the plastic can be removed.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't know I'll have time to build the frame or not. The client asked for a price on a 5'x2.5' sign about a month ago. So, I didn't know if I would even get the job and didn't hear from him again until yesterday. Now he suddenly wants the sign to be 8'x4' and the mason is to start building the columns Monday morning. I've got other people's jobs in progress here.
I contacted the client this morning and asked him for the contractor's number. He hasn't called back yet but hopefully I will be able to correspond with the masons before they start work. My hunch is that they won't even get started Monday anyway.
I don't have a deposit for this but have been doing work for this multi-billion$$$ corporation for several years. They always pay and pay well.
Monty, thanks for the detailed drawings you faxed. That is ingenious and I hope we will be able to use it on this project.
Thanks so much for the help.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Monte, that technique sounds interesting. Could you fax or e-mail me your sketch as well? I'm always looking for new techniques for installations.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The client called this morning to inform me that the foundation had already been dug for a 5.5' wide sign and now he wants it 5.5' wide and two sided.
Now, would a piece of dibond sandwiched between two slabs of 1'' thick HDU be the way to go? Would two pieces of 1.5'' be overkill? I'm not too keen on the 2x4 "stringer-across-the-bottom" method. All of the treated wood we get here warps too bad and I don't like the way that looks anyhow.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Thanks Joe, I'm just about to use up the last of my SignFoam II. Was there a price increase when you came out with the latest product? I will have to order some 1'' as I normally only use 1.5.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
No ....there was no cost increase with the new material. I will be intrested to hear you opion of it......let me know what you think after you get a chance to use it.
Joe
-------------------- "I don't bother saying anything that doesn't take a long time to say"
posted
i am doing a hdu sign now that is 6'x3' 2sided. i glued 2 1" panels together withh gorilla glue and use fiberglass cloth between and it is stong. see if you blast 2" material on both sides it becomes weak. so thus the cloth. it is used in stucco for the base coat. also 2 angle iron on each side with a 3/16 flat iron on the end with a routed cavity to recieve it and bolt through it all. holes must all line up! also fiberglass to smooth out the edges where the tWo panels meet. oh beshure to weight it down good on a flat surface.
chris.
good luck
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
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