posted
Finally did a box truck with a ton of rivets. The application wasn't nearly as difficult as I had feared. But the next day(today) I see the vinyl has lifted a little around many of the rivets. I had cleaned the (new) truck with Rapid Prep before applying vinyl.
Is this normal? Should I do anything more to the rivet areas before calling the customer for pickup?
-------------------- Alan Dearborn Dearborn Graphics Hampton, NH USA Posts: 271 | From: NH USA | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Alan, I assume that the film is premium film, no? As long as it it, it has something called "memory". Memory releases in premium films with heat. Lots of heat, but not so hot as to dicolour. You have to run a squeegee in a 360 around the rivets when they're hot.
We do all of the Pepsi, Coors and Budweiser trucks in our area. Millions of rivets!! All summer long! We don't use brushes often unless its a combination of corregation and rivets, then we do use the brushes. Good luck!!
posted
Rosey the riveter....hahahahaha....what a new name you just got branded with!
Well, young sister of the squeegee, you are so right about memory and vinyl. In fact vinyl has more memory than us old farts. :0
If you are using intermediate vinyl, it will probabbly pop up around rivets. No big deal, live next to a truck stop with big rigs rolling by all the time. I see very few jobs where the vinyl actually stayed put round a rivet.
Of course, if you are doing nicer jobs, like construction trailes or race car trailers, then you would want the vinyl to stay put where you stick it.
So on those bettter jobs, use premium vinyl, which is the very same stuff as intermediate vinyl, EXCEPT that it (premium hp) has been processed a few more times to give it alzheimer's disease, thus it "lost" its memory, sort of like me! hahahahaah
posted
Thanks Rosemary and Dave. I always use HP vinyl on vehicles- can't imagine how you would get Intermediate around the rivets. I'll try some more heat tomorrow and see if I can get some better adhesion if it's not too late.
-------------------- Alan Dearborn Dearborn Graphics Hampton, NH USA Posts: 271 | From: NH USA | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've heard a different story about the difference between HP and intermediate vinyl.
I was told that HP vinyl is made in a liquid state and is cast into very long molds. In this process it can have more plastisizer in it (makes it more plyable)and can be made much thinner.
Intermediate vinyl is made from a huge dough like glob of vinyl with less plastisizer and milled down to its final thickness through machines with rollers, similar to paper making machines. This process requires less plastisizer and cannot be made as thin as HP vinyl as it would not stay together during the process. But the process is much faster and thus cheaper.
The end result is the same though. Intermidiate is less plyable and has more memory than HP.
If you were using HP, chances are a little Rapid Prep might have still been present around or under the rivet and let the vinyl pop back up. Before I apply the vinyl, I always hit the rivets with the heat gun to make sure all the RP is evaporated out. Then I poke a tiny hole with my air release tool, (needle on a stick) warm the vinyl and contour it around the rivet as Rosemary does with a squeege. I've never gotten the hang of a rivet brush. It always wrinkled the vinyl when I tried it.
posted
Try using a heat gun...SET ON LOW!...on the rivet areas and form it using a 'rivet brush'...after poking a small hole on the bottom side. Heat it till it's soft, but not to the point it starts to bubble!
It will say put , even if you use intermedialte. The heat klills the memory of the vinyl
Werks fer me!
[ April 21, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi, Davey!! Dad just told me who "Rosey the Riveter" was! He said you must be an old guy too, no?
Actually Lat is much faster than I am with rivets, but I get mine done. I've never seen anyone as fast as Lat with laying panels on a 60 foot semi trailer! Just the two of us and the scaffold and we're pretty fast. Lat's big deal is "Just try to find a bubble!" (He hates it when I do!)
Dave Sherby, Oracal vinyl, was reported to me by the district rep in our area, to be manufactured in such a way that the same product is worked and stretched and reworked to make it thinner and cause memory loss. Thus 651, 751 and 851 are the same stuff, but refined to a greater degree of perfection in the 751 and even more in the 851.
Oracal is made in Germany and is Europe's leading vinyl for sign makeing. ORAFOL corporation has been around forever making products with gule on the back. Most sign people dont know that. For instance, Orafol knows how long 651. 751 and 851 will last in outdoor applications because those products have been around for many years in Europe, though not sold in the USA.
I suspect 3M, AVERY and ORAFOL don't share manufacturing secrets. So they may have different methods of achieving the end product.
posted
Thats why I don't use Oracal. I never cared for it. I tried some samples and just didn't like the feel. Oracal used to only make calendared film. I much prefer cast vinyl for quality and durability. I've never had a failure with cast vinyl.
posted
I gotta ask... ya' didn't happen to apply the vinyl wet using RT or soap n water. It would be a no,no for going over rivet and would result in the vinyl not sticking. If not, pokes holes, a little heat and rivet brush should do it.
posted
Good point Corey!!! Applying vinyl over rivits using ANY kind of liquid is a recipe for disaster!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Although I'm more comfortable using RT than dry, I knew that doesn't work so well with rivets, so I tried dry. It didn't take too long to get the hang of it.
Thanks for all the replies; I went back the next day and really heated each rivet w/ a heat gun on high and carefully sqeegeed the vinyl in tight and it stayed very nicely. No more fear of rivets...
-------------------- Alan Dearborn Dearborn Graphics Hampton, NH USA Posts: 271 | From: NH USA | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
Orafol is Europe's 3M equivlent. 851 is not their first attempt into "cast" vinyl markets.
I will say that I was called on to demo 851 at N. Glantz & Sons Open House in Milwaukee Wisconsin last month. I really liked it! I wasn't the only one who like it, either.
We tried putting it on wet, which I didn't care for, and dry which I felt was much easier and the end result better.
And, I kept sticking the graphics down in the wrong place on a van...very embarassing when doing a show, and the 851 lifited right back off without stretching out of shape, which made me ask the Oracal District Rep if 851 was "REPOSITIONABLE VINYL". Not intentionally was his reply.
Since then we covered a 24" x 96" x 1/2" piece of Sintra,(because I was too lazy to paint it black) and I even wraped the vinyl around the edges and onto the back of the board. Heated the edges down and the board looks like it was really painted.
I must say that this was a real time saver and was able to letter the board and install it on a brick wall at a doctors office the very same day the order came in.
I'm impressed with 851. I will use it because I believe sticking with one brand as much as possible. A person developes a "feel" for how the vinyl will lay down and what kind of trouble to expect.
Its the same way with Calon, 3M, Avery, and so on, meaning, once you get use to the "feel" and then change brands, those different little quirks from brand to brand can cause some grief.
One thing is for sure, we all love to defend the vinyl brand we use and bad mouth the other products. Very odd, since we are all professionals and having success using various brands of vinyl.
posted
I have heard that you must wait quite a while for any liquid to dry around the rivet...water (or whatever) will collect and bead there, preventing glue adhesion.
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
You may be right about Oracal having made cast vinyls before the 851 series came along but saying "...651, 751 and 851 are the same stuff, but refined to a greater degree of perfection...." is still incorrect. This may be true between the 651 and 751 series but not the 851. 651 and 751 are calendared vinyls and 851 is cast. Does Oracal make other cast vinyls? Anyone from Oracal care to jump in here?
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just lettered a piano moving van with a oracal 851 Black Lifesize Grand piano on it. The stuff went (three solid 12 x 80 panels each side) over hundreds of rivets quite nicely. At 137.00 a roll, it's a deal.
I'm sold. The second truck arrives next week...rivet...rivet...rivet.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic