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i'm sure this won't pertain to folks who live in the big cities but do you find yourself ever feeling bad when you do the signage for lets say 2 coffee houses/or 2 restaurants/2 hair salon/2 gas stations/2 variety stores that are within spitting distance from each other? you've done one location and you frequent the establishment then another one moves in selling the same thing and you do their signage so you maybe buy something from them too...of course the other store sees you walking out with product and they have that wounded puppy dog look on their face. i try to be fair and give business to my customers when i can(if i use their product)...does this only happen to me?? i actually had one customer say, "oh you're cheating on us." they said it light hearted but i still felt like i had to explain my cheatin ways.lol
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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What do you do when you do jobs for 27 plumbers and you need a leak fixed. Get a quote from all your customers? I have 1 trades person that I deal with for electric, plumbing, heating and don't get quotes from others. These are long time, close customers. It can be difficult if your other customers find out, but would you like to give quotes on small jobs knowing that your customer was checking with 27 other sign shops? When a new customer tries to solicite me for business and I already have multiple other customers in the same business, I don't lie and have him find out later I didn't deal with him, I explain that I have many customers that do what he does (lawn mowing,car dealer, house painting) and it's a problem knowing how to pick someone. If you go the quote way,(especially on small jobs) you end up with hurt feelings. I had one guy who quoted me on a house addition (large job), was 30% higher, and got angry and left when he didn't get the job. The most important part is to always, always, always deal with your customers if you buy something they sell. How would you feel if the opposite happened to you?
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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Karyn it has happened to me many times. I even go as far with my loyalty as to pay a higher price when I know that I could shop it around and find it cheaper. But if someone supports my business and doesnt question my price I beleive in giving back.
As to the same kinds of business's, I alternate between the two establishments by odd and even days. If the date is say 4-17-03 then I shop at Joe's and if its 4-18-03 I shop at Moe's...Its all so simple. Just make sure you tell the client that he's your odd customer and his competitor is an even one.
[ April 17, 2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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Our town has a zillion Plumbers. I always trade work with the one that I use.......this holds true for most of my steady customers that are in a privately owned competetive Retailer situation.......RESTAURANTS, CONTRACTORS, PRINT SHOPS, etc. In other words, small businesses like mine. If a situation arises like what Karyn experienced, I just tell them I have an "arrangement" with so-n-so. I try to give a non-commital answer, because none of it is anybody's business anyhow.
[ April 17, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
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We do the same thing with service people like plumbers, electricians, etc. and use the one we have used for years. But you can eat out occasionally at ALL the restaurants you do business with and like wise with other retail (flower shops etc.) We just recently did a window for a fourth flower shop in town. Our town is 11,500. The other three are long established places with a good customer base. Don't know if this will be a success for these people but they did pick a great location so who knows. One suggestion for the new guys you do business for. We have a table that is right in our entry door that has a little display with a couple sayings, a glass sand blasted panel and a container full of OUR cards. I usually tell then new guys (ESPECIALLY if we designed their logo!) if they would like to leave some card on the table, we would be happy to distribute them to interested people. It's good PR and they are happy to get the exposure. Our other customers are free to pick up a card or ask questions about "the new guy". Jane
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hi Karyn, I'm in a town so small that this happens alot. The worst is the two country stores in town, directly across the street from one another. They both want something that's going to draw attention away from the other. I've explained to both of them that I'm going to do the best job that I can for both of them and can't become involved in the competition. I've got a running tab with both and am loyal to both. Business is business and I'm in business to service everyone.
I once lost the business (briefly) of a small town because I did a sign for a strip club that they were trying to shut down. It was very tasteful, but it just bothered them that I would "lower" myself to that type of clientele. If someone calls about a sign, I'm going to pursue it!!! I might not put pictures of it in my portfolio but I won't turn it away.
Just a quick edit... I do turn away some jobs that I feel are distasteful or hurtful in some way, but I try to remain neutral.
[ April 17, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Terry Baird ]
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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A lot of my customers are auto dealers. It's impossible to get prices from all of them..so what do you do? So far I haven't had any major problems with my customers. I do remove the dealers name from my truck just so it won't remind them that I didn't buy from them. Judy
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2621 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Karyn! Yeah I do signs for alot of beauty shops. I have a few who still say they owe me a highlight...or cut....or blow dry.
well guess what? Last night I cut my own damn hair. Geeeeeez . (It isn't a pretty sight.) Oh well...it will give them a chuckle when I do finally stop in the salons. hehehehe
But....to answer your question instead of babbling...you are right....in a big city it is different. Am I loyal. nah. you know me.....I do what I want. I make signs for mechanics who are really overpriced.....so no I don't go to them. Who I am loyal to is my sign supply people, lumberyards and paint stores.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I know what you are saying about the puppy dog looks and the comments. When you think about it though ... those companies are probably not feeling bad about serving more than one sign designer their products.
For instance, do you think the beauty salon only does one sign person's hair?
Everyone's in business to make a living. We can't take it too personally when someone uses another person's services.
Also, about trying to give my customer's my business. That one has bit me in the butt before. I've used a painter once that really did a cruddy job. I wouldn't hire him again. But I still do his signs.
In fact, there was another painter I referred to Dave, who never called back, never showed up. That was a bummer ... but I know I'd never use or refer him again. Still ... I do his signs.
Nobody owns a customer. Nobody owns a contractor.
I heard a good quote once. "No you are not my only customer ... do you think I live on 150 bux a year?"
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
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I do business with business' that do business with me. Anyone who helps to feed my family, I support. I have 2 hardware stores in town and one has bought 3 aluminum signs & a truck lettering job from me. I goto him when I need something because I return the favor. The guy accepted the price with no hassle at all and paid promptly. I still goto the other hardware store because they are a lumberyard/hardware, the other one doesn't sell any lumber.
I like the idea if having more than one in the same biz is to have even & odd days, that seems like a great way to be fair to all your customers.
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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I am passionate about this issue. I support those who support me. If that means supporting two hardware stores, so be it. I have customers who tell me all the time about sign companies that take their $$$ and NEVER patronise them. That's not me..They have no doubt that I support them. I do signs for a local grocery store with two stores. I always cruise the aisles until the owner notices that I am shopping at his grocery store, not the big conglomerate down the street. I often have to drive past the big store to shop with him, but, it's worth it. It really matters to them.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Well now, it's certainly commendable to give back to those giving you. I'm all for it, and as a consumer, I do try to turn to my customer list first for things I buy. I guess when you're talking hardware stores, or grocery stores, it would be easy. I frequent both those types of businesses, and would most definately stop in, say hi, and pick up some screws or some milk, .... most probably if it's in the neighbourhood, and not likely if it's in Clearwater or some distance away.
Call me crazy, but I think customer loyalty is earned, not bought.
For instance, when a customer "does me a favour" and hires me, I return the favour by giving them a bang up job for their money.
I would hope they would use me again, or refer me to others on the merit of my work, and not based on whether I do business with them.
In turn, I refer those who do a good job for me also, and not just whether they are my customer.
I dunno, but let's take a hypothetical. Let's say I hate sushi. You aren't going to find me in a sushi restaurant choking down raw fish just because they bought a sign from me.
Now let's say I really like sushi (really, I do) ... and I go to my customer's restaurant, and am served rotten fish. Do you think I'm going back? Will I sick my friends on that experience because, after all, they DID "do me a favour" and buy a sign from me. Hmmmm.... I guess I might refer them to some fishermen for bait.
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not always going to use the products my customer's sell. I'm not always gonna like their products or need their service enough to support them. And they may not always be good at what they do.
Like those two painters I mentioned earlier. I tried to give them both business, and well, it didn't work out. They dictated that outcome by their action, and in the latest one, his inaction. Both guys still like the work I do for them, and we are all still on friendly terms.
I will always support my customer's in the way I can do it best. By giving them my best on whatever I do for them.
posted
.....I really don't worry 'bout it here.....'cuz it really does'nt bother me if my regulars need to go somewhere else to get somethin' I don't do...I guess each shop here is pretty lucky, 'cuz we all supply different signage needs, we're all in co'hoots...HHAHAHAHHAH!! But if my regular can go somewhere an' get somethin' for less cost an' I can't meet it, he ought to go for it.....if they, I guess you'd say, "went out on me", I'd just assume it was 'cuz they wanted somethin' different or they must have a barter goin' on, or somethin' like that........lucky for me this has seldom happened......likewise, I make no excuses if I'm questioned about somethin' like that...tho' it's n'un their biz...I still just tell 'em the truth, whatever it is...like "A'well, we gotta lil' barter goin'" or " Heck, John, he's doin' it fer 100$ less"....everyone knows you gotta save money, or you got yer fav. people....Just keep givin' 'em that awsome grin you got an' hope they'll gro' up an' get over it, LOL!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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What really hurts is when you support a local supplier spending 1000s a year, and they bypass you and get signage done by someone from elsewhere without even asking you for a quote. Then you need some more stuff and you go back. You're sort of obliged to say "Nice signs....." even if they're ordinary, because you don't want a name as a grump. It makes for some interesting psychology in future dealings. Best wishes, Ian S-K
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I've had same thought like Ian a few times, but then realized we got 20-some signguys around here & just a few lumber yards, or a few Ford dealers, so most likely my competition has spent $1000's at those places as well.
I had been given a call from a mortgage broker I had done work for at her previous place of employment. She told me to expect an upcoming request for a quote when they got the specs from their building manager. I thought it was nice of her to seek me out for her new employer based on work I did for her old one. Later I saw they had the sign done & I never got the call for a quote. I felt a little bummed for a minute until I remembered one of their competitors just made several thousand dollars off me by geting ma a great refinancing deal for my house. Then the other day I even got a call from the woman who first called about the sign. The head office went around her & got it done, but she gave me a courtesy call anyway. Now that may be beyond the call of duty, but to me, thats class. (I hope she doesn't know I got re-fied.
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On the flip side, we earn our money and don't really owe our customer a thing. They bought a sign, and hopefully paid a fair price for it, end of story, right? Wrong. I recently did a job for a customer. My competitor does $1000 a month with them. I do less than $100 a month. I got the job because of follow thru, and service. He flat out told me that. But, I feel compelled to shop there because he shops with me, and will do so as long as I fill the need in a professional manner, (like the sushi theory) The cool thing is that this has led to other work for us.
[ April 18, 2003, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hmmm.... I coulda just opened a can of worms here ~ sorta related to this topic also. Recently purchased/started the sign business. Just got a pretty big (for me-anyway!) sign job for a guy who does excavating & such. He lives 2 roads over, at the far end of the lightly traveled country road. Making him a Big Very Noticable sign to go out on main Route going through our way.., One of his biggest competitors lives at this end of that same lightly traveled country road. I haven't been approached by this guy yet. But I'm sending him a brochure today telling him of my Sign Painting Business ~ and such.... He's also the town road supervisor - I noticed their town garage doesn't have a sign - gonna offer a couple of suggestions & such..... Now for the fun part. The guy at this end of the road? He's my Brother!!!!! Can of worms! Hey - it's business! I wouldn't expect him to not do an excavating job for my competitor ~ and that's the way of things....., .....ya sure can't please all the people all the time.....
~~~Lorna RiverStone
-------------------- Lorna A. Herman RiverStone Signs RiverStoneSigns@aol.com Posts: 29 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Apr 2003
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Nettie said it best: Loyalty is earned, not bought. It works both ways; an example is a restaurant in our town where I have bought more than a few meals over the years. When they did some remodeling they approached me about window lettering. They wanted black lettering with a mint-green shadow (they are restaurateurs, not designers!) which I convinced them, over the course of several conversations, would be a bad idea all around. Well, well. Two weeks go by with no response, then I go by and someone has lettered their windows! It wasn't my design, but it WAS my color selection. I asked about it and they said how much they appreciated my ideas, but my competitor had given them a cheaper price (difficult to see, given the only conversation had been a very general estimate, aside from color suggestions.) I took the opportunity to ask how much my competitor has spent in their restaurant over the last five years - no answer. He's in another town and never goes there.
Okay, so business is business. I obviously hadn't earned any loyalty by spending money with these folks. But they've also seen their last dime from me. BTW, for those of you you came to our Letterhead meet in Stonington in 2000, remember where the group went to dinner, and spent hundreds of dollars? Same place. As I said, no loyalty, no respect, and I won't darken their door again (with or without thirty other paying customers!)
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have a fav 'junk dealer' (antiques etc) that I frequent. Once they got to know me from my repeated visits (no purchases yet) they immediately wanted a quote from me for some new signs. The way they put it is, "Hey, you give us a great deal on signs and we'll give you a great deal on furniture!" Before this comment, their prices were so up and down. I noticed they never sold by the amount shown on their product, so in other words, I had no idea what their true value was.
I turned down the work and chose to keep it where they would continue (on their own) to give me 'good' prices and that was that. It would have been a messy price war if I had done otherwise.
I'm happy with my decision. I went there yesterday and found a cool antique storage box/trunk, great yellow patina, natural crackle finish. And their signs still weren't done! I commented on it and the guy said, "Yeah, I know, I'm slow." But the last time I went in, he said, "Yep, my signs are coming." They're holding back for a reason, probably don't want to put out the money. If someone isn't wanting to spend money, I'm not willing to work for them.
On the other hand, I did work for two major firetruck manufactureres for awhile. The smaller place commented all the time that I worked for their competition and would pump me for info. I always told them, "I'm sorry, I work for both of you and I'm a neutral party, I can't share that info with you. I just do your lettering." The bigger place never questioned my ethics and they knew I worked for the other. Eventually the smaller place started using someone else. I had worked for them for years and finally one day they decided I may be a traitor and may talk about 'their success' with their competition. If they have that little faith in me, I'm better off not being there. It stunned me, but the last few times I did work there, something was up, it didn't feel right, so it was a blessing in disguise.
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Along the same lines as Donna, I've found Antique Shop owners very tricky to negotiate with, as their ticket prices can ebb and flow depending on their mood and bills, and establishing a 'barter price' tends to leave you on the wrong side of good value. Stick with money in this case, even if you return the next day and spend some of it there, you then have the upper hand. Best wishes, Ian S-K
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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