How does the masses feel about employees who moonlight? I did this when I worked for other companies, but it was always in an unrelated field. I think creativity is important, as well as freedom. Some of you have no doubt dealt with this. This is not an issue here at all, but the bigger you get, the more prone you are to those who think you're "getting rich on them" I am careful who I hire. But, there is a fine line between ignorance and sharing trade knowledge. I'm anxious to hear/read.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I was always told.... Long as it doesn't interfere with their main job, ie: too tired in morning/phone calls etc. Not in competion with main job,like a different sign company. Does not throw a bad light on main company.
posted
We had that problem too. Now we don't. We let her go some time ago. She was helping another shop after 5pm. We didn't need someone who knew our customers and our in-house techniques working with someone else. Now we're all family here cept for Liz, but she'll be family soon, and my best friend Monique helps part time. Even if it were a different kind of business I don't believe that she would have been rested and alert enough to give us her best. I think this is a bad idea.
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When I worked for Jack it was basicly, as long as it didn't take money out of the shop, it was OK.
Of course Jack (Lindenberger) is a great guy and so easy going and willing to help someone else. Not to mention Nick who I also learned just as much from, if not more because we usually worked side by side.
-------------------- Troy "Metalleg" Haas 626 Kingswood Dr Evansville,In 47715 Posts: 1100 | From: Evansville,Indiana, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The shop I apprenticed to permitted me to come in on Saturdays to make patterns for my after hours jobs. My agreement with them was that if I was out on a shop job, that I represented the shop. Should someone approach me with a request to do after hours work I would decline, and provide them with a shop business card. However, if I was at the market getting dinner stuff and asked, it was OK and encouraged. I was essentially taught to respect the man that was teaching me. Etiquette was an expression of gratitude.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6836 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with what Robert and Rick said if your employee wants to improve themselves you should not hold them back, you should also do what you can to promote it. I think it would only be a problem if your employee had no ethics and tries to undercut your business or make you look bad.
Are you really that worried if someone else makes a few extra bucks and makes their life better?
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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I look at it like a mairage, would your partner be ok with you being creative or expresive with the lady down the street ?
If my employee was workin for me, then part time botteling their own products and selling them.
Well, I think they are not showing respect, if they wish to have they're own competitave buiss. then "quit and go sell on your own please !".
When I was going thru my apprentiship, I was paid and taught by someone who depended on the income of they're buiss., I would not have felt respectfull dipping into that which he had worked so hard to build (not while he was teaching /paying me).
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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I agree with Rick. It was a policy that my instructor at L.A.Trade Tech held and I like it, too. During working hours I would refer to the shop. After that it's on my time and they get my business card.
Working at Lenny's was a unique situation. I averaged anywhere from 10 to 20 hours a week there and got paid if & when I could hit the bank whilst there was money in his account so I had to moonlight, but we were all subcotractors there, not legitimate employees. Many of the customers were fed up with Lenny and knew we were individually responsible for getting out the work in spite of him and often asked us to do the work outside or they would have to go elsewhere, anyway. If they came to me with that I would do it if it was a small enough job that I could do on Sunday or at home. I feel Lenny brought it on himself.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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You all are a big help. As I said, It's no problem now, but quality people are usually self motivated. I too tend to hire zealous, passionate people.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3506 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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My policy was that anyone working for me could not moonlight in the same industry. They could moonlight doing whatever else they wish. As long as they were rested and alert for their regular job, it wasn't for me to say she couldn't handle more.
I offered my emp. bonuses instead, if they were approached shopping and she gave them my card and an order went through, she got a % of it. I encouraged her to secure her position with me, not shake it.
I invited her to do little things for her close friends and family though. She just paid my cost for materials and she could work after hours and 'play' on her own time.
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As an employee I moonlight and think it should be allowed, the main reason I do it, is because I need the money and love creative work, but never competes with my jobs time or resources. Most sign shops do not pay enough or are not creatively free to express themselves, or have no drive to do better work, so moonlighting can keep a good employee happy, BUT in a small town where every penny counts, I can see a sign shop having a hard time with it.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1540 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I agree with Rick's points about 'representing your employer'. And let's not confuse 'apprenticing' with doing work out the back-door.
Randy took the word's right out of my mouth. If it were my employee and I cared if I lost him or some of my customers or not, I'd have a real heart to heart with him. "Are you doing extra work because you need more money?" would definitely be part of the conversation. If this is the case, offer him a healthy piece of the pie(profit) on any job that he brings into your shop. Get him to care about the success of your shop by offering him a monthly commission on work he brought in the door over and above his 44 hours a week.
I think many in our industry get frustrated because they see their 'boss' charging a shop rate of 65, 75, 100 bucks and hour, and they're getting paid 12 an hour. So, they figure, what's the harm if I do a little side action myself (I do all the work anyways) and pocket myself 30 bucks an hour or something.
One thing I'll say. If someone is doing side work without your approval in your shop, using your equipment, be damn careful. Last thing you want is them cutting their hand off on the tablesaw at 3am on a Saturday trying to make a little extra money.
posted
I worked for a SHORT time for a guy, in 1977, who told me I should not do jobs outside his shop because I didn't know how to price them and might wind up doing the work for half price. I should bring it to him, who was willing to pay me $2.00 an hour. Minimum at that time was probably around $5.00/hr.
The shop charging $100 and hour and paying the guy doing all the work (me) was the deal I had gotten myself into in 1987. I got no % on jobs I brought in. No benefits whatever. I'm a firm believer in a 50/50 split being about right, anyway, after materials. That level of exploitation (12% of the take) will guarantee losing a good worker and creating an enemy. Would YOU do it? Would you loyally bring in work, design it, perform and deliver it, deal with the customer whilst the boss sits in an air conditioned office and drives a new car, for pocket change? Of COURSE I moonlighted. Took a few customers with me when I left, too.
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ultimately, it is whatever the employer & employee negotiate. As an hourly employee, I feel that my boss only controls my activity to the extent that he's paying for it. If I am off the clock, he has no say. Period. I would never agree to anything less, and I personally think less of those who do. What I do with my personal time, knowledge and tools is my own business. Most non-compete agreements are coerced (sign here, or no job), and restricting employees' side jobs is clumsy way to hold onto a customer base. If the only way you can keep your customers is to threaten your employees, you are most likely not a pleasant person to work for. I can understand having employees agree not to use confidential or proprietary company info, But only a retard would blindly sign away their right to make a living. I strongly feel an employee should get extra compensation if they are required to be "exclusive" to one company.
posted
I used to do contract work for several shops, frequently, even. I would get 1/3* if it was in house and 1/2 if it was in the field. Substrates where covered by the shop and I furnished paint, tools and brushes. I did stuff they did not have the artistic ability to do.
*(1/3 was for materials, 1/3 was for profit applied to shop costs, utilities, etc.)
Knowing ahead of time how it would break down, made it easier for me to help build the quotes when asked by the customer, "...what if I want this too?" I knew what the materials were running and how to schedule around the shop's schedule that I was representing.
I was always treated with the utmost respect and could not wait to do the jobs! It was a passion on my part and applauded by everyone else. That put me in the zone. It does not get much sweeter than that!
On the other hand, I've been waitressing all winter to keep my hands warm and food in my belly. I was so wiped out when I got home, that it's been 6 mos since I fired up an air compressor or dipped my brushes...well, except for stoppin in at Timi's on the way to see my girls in Georgia. The rested and alert thingie is so important! LOL
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