1) The check is usually NOT in the mail 2) I do not sell "stickers" 3) I work more hours now than ever before that I can never be paid for. 4) I now sell by design, no longer for price 5) I refuse to compete with those who are willing to work for free. 6) I love competitors who "could have done it cheaper" thats so easy to say when it is already done, and there's no threat of having to deliver. 7) I do not copywrite logos, I want people to come back because they wany to, not because they're forced by copywrite 8) I love people, most are basically good 9) Finally, I would'nt trade my job for anything else. I lasted only eight days in a factory twenty two years ago
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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#1. THE CUSTOMER IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT(in the head) #2. NO...YOU CANT HAVE THAT FOR THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY!!! #3. HOW STUPID ARE YOU? #4. YES....I GET THAT MUCH FOR A SIGN THAT SIZE! #5. $20 WILL GET YOU 36" WINDSHILD BANNER, IN ONE COLOR!! #6. NO...IAM NOT OPEN ON THE WEEKEND, I LIVE HERE!!!!! #7. IF YOU WANTED IT TOMARROW.....WHY DIDNT YOU CALL ME 3 DAYS AGO? #8. I CAN GET THAT COLOR....BUT YOU WILL BUY THE WHOLE ROLL OF VINYL. #9.BANNER & COREPLAST ARE TEMPORARY SIGNS!!!!!! #10. GIVE ME THE NAME OF THE GUY THAT DOES IT CHEAPER, ILL HAVE HIM MAKE THE SIGN FOR ME AT THAT PRICE!!!!
[ April 12, 2003, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've learned that "Murphy" (whoever the hell he is) seems to love signwriters, and brings to bear his "Law" and all of it's colliaries to signshops everywhere,at every opportunity.
If there's ever the remotest chance for a screw-up to happen....IT WILL! and at the most awkward, and most difficult time.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Rick, you have discovered the 'spirit'. Whatever that is.
Twenty-eight years ago seven guys in Denver started a movement that changed our profession. Since then I have tried to define what that 'spirit' is that drives the die-hard passion within us. I'm still working on it.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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O.P., $20.00 dosn't sound like enough money to put anything on a windshield.
And if your customer pays for the whole roll, does that mean they get to keep it ?
A friend of mine just bought a new BMW Mini Cooper S, he wanted tinted windows and a clear vinyl overlay on hood and front fenders. He paid $600.00 for the windows, $ almost $700.00 for the clear vinyl on hood. He was very happy, a very "close to perfect job"
Myself, I think you should charge what it takes to make a profit, not gouging anyone and not workin for free. Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Hi Rick... I have learned that most people are great to work with. But there will be weeks where you get a couple of bad apples! It's ok to get ****ed but get over it.
I charge by the book, so I am much happier. Sure you loose a few cheap asses but so what. I learned I was not happy playing the "how low can you go game".
Thinking positive does NOT always work! You need a good attitude absolutely....but to say it will all work out if you just think positive. NO. sometimes schit happens. Determination and persistent hard work and choices are most important.
Your #1 ...the check is usually NOT in the mail, is so true. I am trying to get all my customers to pay COD...but it doesn't always work with large corporations. This would have to be my number one complaint in being self employed.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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1. My customer is a party to a negotiation, in which both of us win - they get a sign, I get money, we both are happier than we were before. Anyone who doesn't agree with that basic idea is not my customer. 2. Never lower a price to get more work. I will always have enough work. I will never have too much money. 3. What goes around, comes around. Every time. 4. Success does not depend on talent, or skill, but upon self esteem. You will be successful if you believe you deserve to be. 4. I don't know enough. Not about making signs, or running a business - or about history, or culture, or geology, or anything. Realizing this keeps me curious and involved and learning. 5. Painting letters with a brush is one of the world's great skills, right up there with playing blues guitar. I never learned to play a guitar, but then, Muddy Waters couldn't paint letters with a brush, so it all balances out. Sort of. 6. Never say never. Example: I used to say I'd never buy a computer signmaking system. Then I said I'd never buy an Edge. Just now I'm fond of saying I'll never buy a CNC router. Given the way I was never going to buy the other things I now have, this worries me.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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1. I do my best work when I am charging outrageous prices,in fact I often suprise myself when cost is not a factor in the design process.
2. You can always lower a bid, but it hard as hell to justify raising your prices in the negotiation process.
3. A sign artist is a much rarer occupation these days than a brain surgeon/lawyer/insert any profession that is renown for high wages here.
4. More money can be made with a sharp pencil than any tool at my disposal, if I think clearly and bid responsibly.
5. I'm too lazy to work,...too scared to steal,...and I don't really know how to do anything else but signs, so I will enjoy it! I tried a couple of other jobs over the years and love of this trade keeps me coming back.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Marvelous stuff here, both in wit and wisdom.
Roger - I'd say $700 was more than fair on that vinyl job. In a situation like that, one has to take into consideration the risk as well as profit. One mistake and the applicator could be painting this or replacing that. It's like screenprinting jackets... the cost of each unit is so high, that one mistake can cause you to lose money on the whole job. The right price for ANY job, is the one where you get every dime the customer will part with.
Besides, you get $25 for a gallon of water with $0.25 worth of stuff in it!
As for what I've learned...
Nothing is impossible if you are willing to try. Some of the best jobs I've done were 'firsts' for me.
You're never the best, nor the worst. You never know enough, and you're never going to be. Keep improving or stagnate.
Photoshop and various plugins can make even the most creatively challenged retard, look like a genius.
and the number one thing I've learned in the sign business.... relationships with good repeat customers make you money, not prices, capability or talent.
posted
Rob, I sell wholesale (not direct), I have a labor forse,rent,insurance,utyl.,equip and repairs,advertising, packaging, promo., and 50 other real costs, not to mention the.25 for other stuff is a long way from the true cost for the "other stuff".
Much the same as any manufacturing buiss. we work very hard to turn a profit, now back to the topic.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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besides lettering your own truck..word of mouth is the best way to get business. do a great job..that customer may tell someone. do a sh!tty job...that customer will tell anyone who will listen.
[ April 12, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Roger (and all) - I was revisiting a point that Cam Bortz made light of in another post - 'perceived value' of a product. Be it a sign or a gallon of Rapid-Tac, the cost to produce does not have to directly relate to selling price. If someone can make 4000% profit on a sign, by all means - make it.
A similar case study would be Slick50. A teaspoon of stuff in a quart of cheap oil = $50! That guy was a genius!
Signs MAKE money for our customers. They need to be aware of this. An ill-conceived sign will COST them money.
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roger...$20 for a 6"x 36" piece of intermediate vinyl and all i do is cut, weed and tape it and hand it to the guy and get $20!!!!!! id say thats good money.......remember i have a mobile sign shop...and do car shows with it...R.T.A.(ready to apply vinyl)is what i do most of at a show..no applications. just thoought of this roger...little 1/2- 1 0z bottles of RP2....that these people can buy for a $1-$1.50 when they get R.T.A. vinyl.....send me the commission check....
[ April 12, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think the most valuable thing I've learned from this biz is to apply 'sign' techniques to other variables in my life.
For instance, when working with my hubby on a project at home,he can stumble on a ? in woodworking, and I use my 'frequently used and selftaught' measuring skills to figure it out.
My eye for level and straight is utilized for everything else that requires level and straight. To the point of driving me to insanity in some cases. I have this one picture in my house that I'm about to nail in place!
And knowing I can get what I want if I want it bad enough is a good one. If I don't set goals, I will stay in the same place or lower myself in some way. (I want to be really rich, but I don't want it so bad that I'm willing to sacrifice my whole personal life to get it. )
I love how this biz has taught me so many life learning skills I use in pretty much whatever else I do.
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