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What is the concensus of my peers as far as competing with those who are willing to work for free?? I have found good old customer service to work the best for those customers who like to split hairs, because my competitor cut it below the bone. How about the masses...
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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well i think they are idiots with no self-worth. even morons have to eat, pay for a roof over their heads..not to mention equipment & materials...they can't work for free forever..unless they have a trustfund and that's what they wish to do..then you just gotta hope that person doesn't live in your town...of course i think it cheapens the trade but it also shows poor business sense. if i want to work for $8/hr..i'll go greet people at wallyworld and have co pd insurance and 401k...i won't play the game with people on price dickering..i dont have the time..i give a fair price and my service is great. i work hard for every dime i make and i certainly don't feel bad about it!
[ April 06, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I very promptly tell clients that I cannot afford to finance their art collection and or marketing efforts.We have a very selective art school here in town and the students often as not offer to do free wall murals in the downtown and arts district areas.I make it very clear promptly that I am a proffesional with decades of experience and refuse to participate in such bad business pratices as they are out of my personal financial capabilities.At the same time I stress the age old business wisdom that you get what you pay for,...
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Persons have plenty of reasons to dislike me other then what I'm about to say, but here goes.
With the influx of computer and plotters, vinyl and as much BS as I've heard that goes with it, its no wonder there are people cutting and undercutting each other. It almost seems like there aren't any professions one could get into with such as low learning curve. Everyone thinks they are artists whether or not they have an eye for color, design or balance. Layouts are made easy with the click of the mouse, got a problem? Ask on the Letterhead BB. Maybe there should be a Letterville Diploma so ya can hang it on your showroom wall or attach to your invoice!
Alicia said it best that someday there will be personal label makers which make signage, and they will be in everyones home across the world.
I find that persons wanting to compete should learn all they can including hand painting which will go on, as its been going on since day one.
I found Cam's post most interesting with his top 10 professions, all of which probably have the same exact learning curve if you want to be successfull or should I say, if money is the only thing that moves you. Ever since I could remember, this trade has been for the love of it, and making money was the bonus. My craft has been good to me for alot of years and I'm thankful that it still takes talent to do what I do, some things never change.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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Rick, you really can't compete with those who do work cheap and cheap work. Some customers are perfectly satisfied with them. They would drink milk coming from a pig's butt if the price was right.
A race car owner came in the other day and asked for a price. He said, "Wow, that's high! My brother-in-law's cousin will do it for $100.00." I told him he must not have a lot of confidence in the boy, or he wouldn't be here.
Next I showed him my exacto. I can cut that wart off your face really cheap! Because I am not a professional plastic surgeon. But then again, it may become infected, leave a pretty ugly scar, or sever a nerve. That may be O.K. with you. But if not, you need a pro.
I didn't get the job...or a new friend for that matter. But it may work next time on someone who doesn't have a wart, using the word IF!
We will always have someone's brother's sister-in-law's cousin's uncle's grandson's friend to loose work to, but we don't have to compete with them.
-------------------- Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist. Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Personally...I won't "compete" with them...I like to eat!
I'd rather do nothing for nothing than do work for nothing.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Dave, that is a pretty good explanation of this whole concept. we need to get everyone to understand that if we work together to keep prices up then we all make more money. people getting in the business should have to go through some type of pricing class before they can buy a plotter
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Kathy, great response...."I can cut that wart for you...." My sign friends and I have always felt that we could do Brain Surgery if things slowed down...!!!
Lately, I've been working on a TV series, on set, and will occasionally pull out my olfa knife and announce..." I do on site vasectomys..." Guys look worried, women wonder... all in a days work, eh?
John / SignRider
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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i dont do the dicker price thing...ill quote high sometimes and then if i see they are interested ill back off some....then they usually OK. but for those that want me to work for free...i tell em this:" OK ill do all the signs you want for free, BUT iam gona move in with you, you can feed and cloth me...and i get to share your wife." now do want this sign for free or would you rather pay me?
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have worked for a guy who is probably a millionaire in his mfg. business, and he does vinyl boat lettering at the local marinas for next to nothing as a favor to his fellow yacht owners. He sure isn't doing any favors for the local sign painters.
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Calm down, calm down. Remenber the days, about 30 or 40 or more years ago when a lot of business owners just made their own signs? Back then, they'd just paint a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" plywood and call it their sign. Or maybe they knew of an artistic teenager who would do the sign just for the price of the paint. And what about guys who would do signs with store bought wood letters. Man, people have been getting "Free" signs for years. And we have all been in this business for just as many years. It's just the way things are, in all busineses. So my solution could just be, you have got to be one hell of a salesperson. Remind people that there signs are a one time investment an all that other stuff. Stay tuff, don't give up. And always keep on learning.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3819 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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How do you compete those willing to work for Free?
Easy...Pay your customer to make them a sign, yeah that's the ticket...that'll p*%# your competitors off!
[ April 08, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: FranCisco Vargas ]
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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.....I find I need "Joe-wino" and "drive-thru-signs" to SEND the cheap customers to. I am SO over tryin' to educate people about quality an' service an' blah-blah blah-blah blah. I LOVE IT when they say thay hav'a "friend-couzin-aunt-nephew-etc." who will do it for X-amount, 'cuz I get to say "REALLY? WOW! They can do it for THAT? You should get them started on it NOW!!"...an' I just walk off an' go to work on real jobs. You could spend ALL day givin' analogies to some of these people an' they still would'nt get it, altho' Kathy, can't wait to hold up my 'zacto knife an' use that one!..get that visual aid thing goin'. ...But thank God for repeat customers...they have spoil't me rotten! An' good ol' word o' mouth, which has well served me to divert some of those people who "don't care what it looks like"...always tell THEM to just do it theirself.........man....I'm startin' to sound like the customers the enemy.........!! good luck to you!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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if your as good as you think you are, then there shouldn't be any problems. I tend to think quality work is the biggest factor. But, I don't agree with Joey. I see alot of paint around here that looks like it was done by an eighth grader. Does that say anything about painters? does it mean we should all learn to do vinyl? nope, just means that the signmaker wasn't too good. It simply has nothing to do with the tools.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've never understood the concept behind competeing for the lowest price or trying to see how cheaply I can produce a sign. Sorry, I think a little more of myself than that. I have a question for those that follow that line of thinking. If you were to apply for a salaried job and they said they would hire you at a starting salary of say $55,000 a year, would you offer to work for $43,000???
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Had a very upset lady come in the other day.
Says she'd been to the other sign guy, he gave her a price and now he suddenly doesn't want to do the job for her, too busy or something.
He gave her a low price, had second thoughts, and sent her to me.
Getting to the bottom of the 'story', and now I've heard both sides, he'd agreed to take down a 3' x 8' illum. face, strip it, reletter it, and reistall for $150.00!
I asked him how much just to take it down and put it back up, if I strip & reletter, he says "$130.00". Says he doesn't want the job 'cause she was wanting to know about changing the colors on the layout; the one he sent her.
He says he's not much interested in making signs "'cause he makes more money selling stuff on ebay".
I said please stop giving prices to people you aren't going to do work for, upsetting them, sending them to me after you realize what a mess you've made and if you don't want to make signs get the h**l out of my business! STOP ruining it for those of us who are trying to make a living at this.
Oh, maybe I should just thank him for making me look more professional.
-------------------- Shirley Carron Black Sheep Designs 184 John St. N. Arnprior,On.,Canada shirleyc@magma.ca 613-623-7053 Posts: 503 | From: Arnprior, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Of course the simplest answer is: "Do you want the cheapest sign, or the one that makes the customers business the most profit"
There are valid places for 6" Red Helvetica one line signs on cheap plywood. Usualy not the ones where a carved and guilded, hand painted redwood sign fits in. Both have uses. You don't have to make both, but someone will.
What they are realy paying for, is the knowledge of the differences.
-------------------- Bob Sheers 24 Hour Services Columbia, MD USA 410-995-3655 bob@go-to-airport.com Posts: 140 | From: Columbia, MD, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
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...But thank God for repeat customers...they have spoil't me rotten! An' good ol' word o' mouth, which has well served me to divert some of those people who "don't care what it looks like"...always tell THEM to just do it theirself.........man....I'm startin' to sound like the customers the enemy.........!! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
good luck to you! 
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