posted
A few things have happened lately that has got me thinking about sexism & how women in the workplace are perceived by men or even other women. I'd like both men and women to share their views.
Here's an example of what I mean. A couple of years ago, I attended a letterhead meet. I finally got my nerve up, and helped work on a mural. It was all women painting it, and we were standing on a scaffold a couple of feet off the ground. A group of men where standing back, commenting outloud on the "scenery" and patting the guy in charge on the back. When I finally heard the comment "Well, a few of them definately look better from the back than the front" I finished what I was doing, cleaned my brush, and walked away.
What I'm curious about, do men think I am oversensitive, that they where "just having fun" or do you think this is rude? It amazes me how this kind of thing happens all the time. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a sincere compliment, and I admit, I love it if I can turn a head once in a while, but geez!!
Do you women find that the general public assume you are less competent, because you happen to have a couple of bumps in your shirt?
Sue
------------------ "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, Sk Canada
Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi Suelynn. About a year ago I posted about MEN! they don't play fair. I was pissed because a customer that I had been making signs for, for years, was going to go to another sign shop, because I refused to go out with him.(he was freshly divorced) He would make sexist comments and basically was acting like a jerk. Well,guess what? I still make signs for him, probably because I called BS on his behavior. I told him he was using his 'power' (he is the owner of a commercial real estate company) to try to get me to behave to his liking. I told him that if he wanted to play like that, I am out of the game. I didn't NEED that kind of business. I guess he thought about it and realized he was being a pig. I have alot of male friends. I don't date them, but even they say Men are Pigs! This is true on occasion, but on the other hand, women can be just as strange. Just in different ways. It is probably best to get a good laugh about all of it. Hey..if I would have been helping on that mural...I might have suggested(read nly suggested) giving them a BA to ponder! It's better to be looked over, than overlooked! Have fun! And smile...you never know when you are on candid camera!!!
posted
Well, this is a comment from a guy.....here goes: I think it is very rude for them to make such a comment. I think that men cannot help thinking some of these thoughts, as we have 2 brains. One atomatically gives priorty to the other in many instances like you speak of. It not only thinks with a mind of its own, but in cases where it takes over the whole thought pattern, it will relay stupid and crude messages to the mouth. It is hard for some to control this. This is not an excuse, but maybe will expain it a little. I can't explain sheep at all. Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Sue, the men making those comments were rude. I say they were stupid. You did right by leaving. The fact is that this kind of behavior comes fairly natural - you can see its development in small children. But that's why parents are supposed to teach kids what is right, and how to behave toward the opposite sex. Some people just never learn these things and it shows when they make fools of themselves in public.
The sexes are different, and not interchangeable. And that's good. Given this understanding and with proper perspective, there should be respect developed between the two.
No matter how hard you try, you just can't keep a compass from pointing North. If men didn't behave badly, we'd lose the word "ga-ga" from the English language. It's what we do, we don't have a choice on the matter.
IN FACT IT'S GOOD TO BE A GUY BECAUSE:
Your ass is never a factor in a job interview.
Your orgasms are real. Always.
Your last name stays put.
The garage is all yours.
Wedding plans take care of themselves.
You never feel compelled to stop a friend from getting laid.
Car mechanics tell you the truth.
You don't give a rat's ass if someone notices your new haircut.
Hot wax never comes near your pubic area.
You never have to drive to another gas station because this one's just too icky.
Same work ... more pay.
Wrinkles add character.
You don't have to leave the room to make emergency crotch adjustments.
Wedding Dress $2000; Tux rental $100.
If you retain water, it's in a canteen.
People never glance at your chest when you're talking to them.
The occasional well-rendered belch is practically expected.
New shoes don't cut, blister, or mangle your feet.
Porn movies are designed with you in mind.
Not liking a person does not preclude having great sex with them.
Your pals can be trusted never to trap you with "So, notice anything different?"
One mood, ALL the damn time.
You know stuff about tanks.
A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase.
You can open all your own jars.
Dry cleaners and hair cutters don't rob you blind.
You can go to a public toilet without a support group.
You can leave the motel bed unmade.
You can kill your own food.
You get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness.
If someone forgets to invite you to something, he or she can still be your friend.
Your underwear is $10 for a three-pack.
If you are 34 and single, nobody notices.
Everything on your face stays its original color.
You never feel the need to wash your underwear because they are "slightly soiled." Just throw them in the dirty clothes with everything else.
You can quietly enjoy a car ride from the passenger's seat.
Three pairs of shoes are more than enough.
You don't have to clean your apartment if the meter reader is coming.
You can quietly watch a game with your buddy for hours without ever thinking "He must be mad at me."
No maxi-pads.
You don't mooch off other's desserts.
You can drop by to see a friend without having to bring a little gift.
If another guy shows up at the party in the same outfit, you just might become lifelong friends.
You are not expected to know the names of more than five colors.
You don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt.
You almost never have strap problems in public.
You are unable to see wrinkles in your clothes.
The same hairstyle lasts for years, maybe decades.
You don't have to shave below your neck.
Your belly usually hides your big hips.
One wallet and one pair of shoes, one color, all seasons.
You can "do" your nails with a pocketknife.
You have freedom of choice concerning growing a mustache.
Christmas shopping can be accomplished for 25 relatives, on December 24th, in 45 minutes.
The world is your urinal.
And let's face...women wouldn't want us any other way.
------------------ Louis A. Lazarus Milt's Sign Service, Inc. 20 So. Linden Ave. #5B 650-588-0490 fontking1a@aol.com
Posts: 560 | From: El Granada, CA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
It's too bad that had to happen at a Letterhead meet of all things but don't go thinking it just happens to women. I used to be flattered at compliments when I was young and good looking but the fact of the matter is, I lost 2 well paying jobs in the past because it was the other way around!
------------------ Robert "Bobby" Salyers Airbrush & Graphics Studio Clearwater, FL website:http://airbrushbobby.com
He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, in my heart he put other and different desires. Each man is good in his sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows.---Sitting Bull
Posts: 505 | From: Clearwater Florida USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
The men or guy was rude, of course, but why not have a comeback like "you don't look good from any angle" or something ? Surely there are more important things to get worked up over. I have seen men bend over backwards to do business with women, just because thery are women. The local gal here never has had a phone book ad and she stays busy.
Sexism works both ways too. I have lost jobs because I didn't take the bait. I think some gals take rejection harder than men do, they aren't likely to come back and apologize.
------------------ "hooked on fonix" Olympia WA
Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey Suelynn - this is an interesting post because in my experience much depends upon where you are geographically. Firstly though it sounds to me like the man at the meet was rude. When I lived on the continent I hardly ever noticed anyone passing those kinds of comments at either me or my women friends. The exception being whenever we went to Italy - it was a different story - there you get the full shebang - from comments (you dont need a translator to understand them!) to hands on pinching patting etc... When the Turks moved into Switzerland they had some very vulgar and upsetting customs stemming from their beliefs that European women were sexually promiscuous because they go about alone and dont cover themselves up from head to toe. An unacompanied woman might find herself being followed through the main bus and rail station by a bunch of these men making a kind of hissing sound, as if calling a cat. In my experience the countries where this isn't a problem seem to have a healthier attitude about their bodies. For example when living in the US I found that both men and women had a very sexualised notion about breasts. So when it comes to feeding babies there are problems - even though this is the main reason we have those curves under our t-shirts. I think that both sexes have valid issues here. It is nice to be complimented about how you look. In some ways it is a bit like the smoking issue - if people had remained polite and stepped outside to light up or checked to see if anyone was eating near them before smoking, as was the case in the past, well we probably wouldn't have the prohibitions we now have. There simply would be no need. So much of the sexism problem could be solved by being polite. Surely we women don't really want men who don't find women attractive. I don't think it is possible for men to find only their wives/partners attractive - however it is entirely possible for them to rise above their natural desires. I for one don't want men to be like women - I want them to be like men. as the french say "vive la difference".
p.s.---My Dad, who is of the "old school" is always a gentleman, recently held open the door of a shop for two young women. They went through the door and turned around and said right to his face "now go f*** off". My Dad was completely nonplussed and now he only holds the door open for women he knows.
posted
Suelynn,...Opinions are like,...well you know tha sayin' & there's one in every crowd,.... Whenever I hear something said off color or disrespectful in public, I remember what my mom told me,...First thing to consider of any statement is the source & whether or not the individual even begins to grasp the concept of integrity or ethics.Second thing to consider is is the speaker's motive,if it's worthwhile or of any concern to me,... often as not it will be some sort of insecurity or just plain ignorance that the individual is trying to disguise with off color "wit".It's kinda like complaining about the service at a fast food joint without taking into the consideration of the motivation of an individual who would work for minimum wage in the first place.
posted
How much do you spend on cosmetics, clothing, and keeping yourselve looking good? They were just letting you know your investment was well spent. Haven't you ever returned the favor? Vulgarity is not acceptable.
posted
Thanks for all the replies. I just find the whole concept of thinking with different sides of our brain, etc. very interesting. I didn't really mean to pinpoint just the Letterhead meet, it was just an example.
I guess what has brought this up, is I've noticed guys noticing my 12 year old daughter, and all of a sudden, I look at things in a whole different light. Funny how its alright for me to take these comments in stride, and laugh them off, but when I think of my daughter in future years, I think I'd want her to tell them to take a flying leap. I can't imagine being single (been married for 13 years) today and choosing from men who consider "God you've got nice t*ts" to be a compliment!
When I was 18, I worked for a man that actually stuck his hand down my shirt while I was leaned over a desk. Then he tried to convince me that I should take it as a compliment, and that when I'm more mature, I would understand "how men think". I look back and can't believe I didnt slap him right across the face.
I don't mean to start a man bashing post, because I know there are many good ones out there. Again, I'm just interested in how different we are programed to think.
Sue
------------------ "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, Sk Canada
Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Verbal opinions out loud are sometimes casted as Humour! And we all have done this here and other places! Really not knowing that we have given an insult to the parties in the hearing range (myself included as the verbal person)..But a good come back helps in the matter and I would have ask that person to step up to the scafolding so you could give a rating on his flat or fat ass too! But only people that know each other very well can joke this way if all are comfortable with it....
Raven/2001
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Sue, ya should have said to him (looking him up and down first) "You look like you must have a really big #$%^........too bad it's on your shoulders"!
They hate that!
A
------------------ Adrienne Morgan Splash Signs www.splashsigns.com "Rainkatt'
posted
Well... jeez... where to begin? As a foam at the mouth femi-nazi with a substantial library of feminist literature, beginning with Betty Friedan and moving right along to Susan Faludi, I can tell you, there is a great deal of sexism in the USA. Just because the USA doesn't bury women in dirt up to their necks and throw rocks at their heads because they showed their naked fore arms doesn't mean we don't have a problem here. Check out the stats. Women = 51% of the population. women = 2% of the CEOs of fortune 500 companies women = 3% of House of Representatives 97% of prison population is male. 95% of women homicides are by their husbands or boyfriends (or ex of those) 95% of the poorest of the population are families w/ women head of households.
One of my favorite jokes is: Why do women use makeup and wear perfume? Cause they're ugly and they stink.
There is a problem and the problem is called R E S P E C T In answer to Freud's famous question: What do women want... He might have found out if he'd ever actually LISTENED to what they said. R E S P E C T that's it. And the comment made by the schmuck watching the women painting shows a complete LACK of respect. In gangland culture, lack of respect is grounds for murder. I live in Utah, a state famous for its rabidly patriarchal religious control, and polygamy... (even tho it is "officially" disavowed)... we have double the rate of spouse abuse. RESPECT... that's it. Funny how some men are "excusing" their behavior based on biology.. but refused to allow the president to do that... Oh well. Guess it's a ... personal thing. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The guy you worked for did not deserve a slap in the face. A good grip and squeeze elsewhere would have done a lot more good(and YES I mean make it hurt)
The comments are a different matter. Some guys actually don't realize how they can make you feel(not an excuse but maybe an explanation) I have to admit that I have made some comments in the past that I am not proud of now.
I learned my lesson the hard way. Some guys will think this would actually be fun, until they actually tried it. Afew years ago, I spent 2 days lettering a wall in a halfway house for female convicts. Believe it or not, the comments can get to us just as bad. The difference is, most women do not subject us to that type of treatment.
My 1.5 cents worth
------------------ Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane.
Posts: 2289 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Well Suelynn I have run my business along with my wife since 1977 and most of the time it is just the 2 of us here. I get really annoyed with customers who demand that they talk to me. They think the little lady should be in the kitchen or the bedroom. We have both male and female reps call in and I must say that I find the girls much better salespersons. Now on the other hand quite often my wife and some of her female reps and friends will gang up and take the mickey out of me. I wouldn't take too much offence at what guys or anyone else for that matter has to say because women can be just as bitchy to other women. Personally I prefer womens company and find their conversation more stimulating than football and other blokish talk. It amazes me that certain menfolk are astonished that I work all day with my wife and then play golf with her on weekends. Evidently they think it is poofish, but I think it is a "manly" hangup that some men suffer. By the way that post of LE's is good but I don't think Aussies are like that. There is good and bad in both sexes and both deserve the garbage they instill.
------------------ Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesig@dingoblue.net.au Downunder "If we did all things we are capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves" - Thomas Edison
Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
LE what does having literature from sexists prove ? I haven't seen anyone excuse men's behavior while condeming Clinton's. You don't seem to be too concerned with accuracy.
It is interesting that you bring up those women and try to make a case for hypocrisy. Where were they all during the Clinton years anyway ? Why were they mute on his extracurricular activities ? Why didn't they step forward in assistance to the women that claimed harrasment and even outright rape ? They have shown what the their true agenda has been all along, simply furthuring their leftist ideologies caring not a whit for women who stand in their way. ------------------ "hooked on fonix" Olympia WA
[This message has been edited by Jim Upchurch (edited January 18, 2001).]
Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It has only been the last four generations that a woman could survive on her own and support herself. Women have been and still are second class citizens and often not classed as citizens throughout parts the world. If you are a single women who has worked your whole life you see a lot of the prejudice and men probably dont even realize or think about what they are doing. When young and pretty you get whistled at and can get away with some things because of being a young women. When you get older you see how many men and younger people just tune you out as "grannies" and "old women" tend to be a joke in this country. I remember the recent post of some guy we were supposed to feel sorry for cause he passed some "granny", probably my age, at 100mph and the poor stupid old thing panicked and swerved. And then the comments that slip out insulting women who are independent and speak their mind. It is hard to change attitudes and stereotypes. If they hadnt fought hard for it women wouldnt be able to own property or vote. They still make less money on the average for the same work as a man and are often even more skilled.
My feeling is those men who see this and do treat a women as an equal with respect are the real men who dont have a problem with a fragile ego that has to be bouyed up by feeling superior to another group of people.
The majority of the women friends I have had thru life have experienced violence and or sexual assualt from a spouce, boyfriend or family member at some time in their life.
I beleive that most men are not sexist. For many years my husband and I ran a gasline construction business, which is definately a man's world. Yes there were men who would not talk to me until the Boss would say "I don't know the answer to that, let me put my wife back on the phone." He he he I loved it! At times when I was talked down to I preferred to beleive that person treated both sexes that way because of their own self-esteem problems. At times it was actually easier to be female. Male employees seemed to take orders better from me. Guess I had the Mom image working for me! Our guys were polite and actually respected me because they thought I did a good job. It sometimes amazes men that we can grasp mechanical things that are generally thought of as "male things." Don't get me wrong, I ran into my share of pigs, but I find them easier to deal with than bitches. I'd much rather work with men because they treat you with more respect than our female counterparts.
------------------ Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics Ponchatoula, La. Old enough to know better...Too young to resist.
Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
David I must agree with you even though my wife and I don,t work together she is a nurse we spend all our off time together we are the best of mates I to prefer the company of woman as they can usually carry out an intelligent conversation without the main subject getting crude and below the belt and can also usually converse on a wider rang of sublects
------------------ Ian Wilson Signmaker Toowoomba City Council Cnr Anzac Ave & Stephen st Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your toubles be little ones The man that never make a mistake never makes anything
Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
My best customers are women business owners. Communication is far better. They seemed to be focused on drawing new customers into their business with sensible signs.
I have tow truck drivers (guys) who are only concerned with outdoing the other guy. This also goes for my landscapers, auto body & dump truck drivers. The "lets whip 'em out to see who's got the biggest" is hardwired into our mak-up and is demonstarted when talking signs.
Comments about women can be dicey. If you get a read and the word play is mutual, it can be joke time. This guy was off base and maybe didn't realize it. The group of women standing beside you said nothing...which is disappointing to say the least. There is strenth in numbers.
More important, always leave the offender a way out or a chance to retract and or apologize (also in a joking manner if other guys are around.)
And now a personal note.
My fiance' is employed by a female business owner. She has been a loyal and dedicated assistant to her boss for 2 years, often using her own personal time to run errands and do work on the weekends.
She works 30 hrs a week as a full time student with a 3.8 GPA. She has been told since day one that her business degree will be a great asset when she graduates this spring.
"I plan to leave this company to you" she would always say to her. Her salary has more than doubled in this time period as she took over the Human resources, Hiring, Wed site management, Contract negotiations..etc.
So this week she asked her female boss to give her an employment agreement following her graduation outlining all the promises she had made.
My fiance' was told that she has changed her mind. She is going to put the future of her company not in the hands of someone she can mentor, but rather has hired a 56 year old man who is retired military.
Not only has her future been taken from her, but this lady treats her like a dog, often giving her extra work, while the "new guy" often slips out with her for happy hour at 3 pm.
Needless to say, she and I will look twice if her future boss tries the "we women have to stick together" BS. Women in the workplace will never get anywhere if this cycle continues.
And thats my 2 cents.
------------------ Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Alexandria VA
I have never let schooling interfere with my education - Mark Twain
Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
What can I say... I believe that when a crude comment such as the one outlined above deserves a great come back to stun them into silence, at least... Or at least that is the method that I use It seems to work well, too...
I'm the only girl; in a class which had 14 guys in last year... Senior Technology Studies. For the previous two years I had taken out the prize for that subject. It took about three weeks, until they understood that I was going to give as good as I took, so the 'barrier' as such, was broken down. I have to say that it is actually one of my favourite subject, just because there AREN'T any bitchy females... That I can joke around with these guys and not have to worry about how I look, or what I say. I actually find males as better friends than females, most of the time. They don't fuss for hours in front of the mirror, worrying about how they look, and if they want to say something they will, instead of using cryptic clues to get the message across... Yeah, men will be men, but hey, I wouldn't want them any different
Just my three cents worth....
------------------ From Katie Wright, 16 year old professional signie wannabe from Aus.
"Life is a great big canvas, throw all the paint on it that you can"
Posts: 530 | From: Brisbane, Australia | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
That's a pretty crummy comment no matter who it comes from, I know I would never say anything like that out loud although I might be thinking it. =)
It's all lies in the way the person was brought up. If they were applauded for being arrogant when they were younger, they'll be rude when they're old.
I've always been the fat kid, picked on, made fun of, slight stuttering problem.. add on top of that the fact I had skipped a grade and there was talk about advancing me another grade...
So I know how it is to be the target and throughout my whole life to this point I've always had that in the back of my mind and couldn't imagine putting someone else through that sort of thing..
Now on the otherhand, I could fill libraries with books listing the number of times I've heard "I wish I could find a nice guy just like you Mikey."
HELLLOOOOOOOOOO!!! aint no one more like me than me!
Oh, that's right... you meant someone "with my personality" but skinny.. I see how it is.
whoops! sorry.. slipped into a repressed memory for a minute there.. =)
------------------ Mike Pipes -----trapped in a box with a computer and a slice of cheese-----
Posts: 145 | From: Lake Havasu City, AZ | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
The only time I had bumps in my shirt, Mall security was ankle tackling me in the parking lot.
Anyhow...
What those guys said was insulting. Any derogatory comments about one's appearance is an insult. Doesn't matter what sex you are.
Myself, I prefer the company of women simply because I'd sooner chat than arm-wrestle or see who farts loudest. (unless there's a Hockey game on TV. best that everyone leave me alone then).
But sexism is a two way street. Sure, women are confronted with it more often. But men fall victim to the all too common assumption that to be male is to be chauvanistic and crude.
Something else to consider: Pigs come in both genders.
and the old joke: If a guy talks dirty to a woman, it's sexual harassment. If a woman talks dirty to a guy, it's $4.99/minute.
------------------ Rob Hopkins Speedpro Signs Plus Red Deer, AB, Canada ICQ#22434888 mIRC:"Vinylist" email:rdspeed@connect.ab.ca
Posts: 87 | From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Hi Suelynn! (I hope I got your name right!) I am a woman, in signs since 1985. Sexism does suck. At times, I use my feminine charms to my advantage. I love going down to the local glass factory in my Peg Bundy pants to letter walls, even if I am a bit Rubenesque. Other times, especially dealing with new clients, being a woman is a definate disadvantage. Some have said "Is your husband home?" (meaning he was the sign artist, not me) Others feel free to haggle like they were at a garage sale or something. I've noticed at meets that the sign ladies (or "letter babes", as I've heard them called) who wear Daisy Dukes are definately more popular than those who wear Martha Stewart-like outfits. It's kinda like evrything else that being a woman entails...labor is a bitch but you do get a sweet little baby afterwards. So I guess you gotta take the good with the bad. I was once "felt up" by a local yokel cop while I was bending over a pot sink doing dishes at a diner I worked at. He did the same thing to a co-worker, and she put ex-lax in his hot cocoa! I would never choose to be a man. I'm not a super-girly girl, but I do love being a woman. I also love being an artist. Good luck! Jill
------------------ Jill M. Welsh
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
This stuff seems rather simple to disect. Why are we not hearing from the transvestites and transexuals amoungst our unit? Why are they remaining silent?
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Oh, for the faith of a spider! He begins his web without any thread.
Posts: 6736 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Sorry to bring an 'older issue' up to the top, I've been away for a few days. I think LE has a point when she says that women want respect, and for the most part they deserve it. I believe that if more men practiced what the Bible preaches, the problem would proportionly dissappear. For example: the Bible teaches that husbands should love their wives 1.'as their own bodies', and 2. as "Christ loved the church". If we take the time to discover just how much Christ loves the Church (His children - not a building or sect)we will find that it is a lot, further, the Bible descibes women as an honoured 'vessel', to be given special love and care. Women of the Bible are applauded for the very special ministry they are able to perform (such as to children and other women)and have God-given talents to that end. While male and female roles and ministries are seperate and clearly defined, both are regarded as unique and complimentary whether in the home, the church or the community. Now I know that many men who think they are christian may not act as they should, I speak only of what the Bible teaches and men of faith should follow. In short, this amounts to the respect that LE say women want, IMHO.
------------------ Gray Hodge celtman@ireland.com Cam River Signs Somerset, Tasmania, Down Under
nly suggested) giving them a BA to ponder! It's better to be looked over, than overlooked! Have fun! And smile...you never know when you are on candid camera!!!
A
Oh well. Guess it's a ... personal thing.
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