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As the old adage says 'be careful what you ask for, you just might get it', I was asked to bid on a a job painting letters on a wall (area 6'x6', couple of lines of ~3" letters). I purposely bid high on this part of the job. The owner still wants it.
After watching Al Zanetti's video (Thanks Kim!), I'm pretty intimidated. Nobody like that around here.
I have to start this project by the end of this week so I don't have much time to practice. Does anyone have any suggestions? I have a couple of options and obstacles. I was thinking about making a pattern with my plotter, although it doesn't pounce. I thought about pouncing by hand. I do have a projector available also.
The wall is textured (big swirls) and I plan on using 'one-shot'. If I make a mistake, is there anyway to wipe off the one-shot (like with mineral spirits)? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Nothing like baptism by fire. Regards, Steve
-------------------- Steve Eason Admiral Signs Juneau, AK Posts: 62 | From: Juneau | Registered: Jan 2003
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Hi Steve, I think 90% of the hand letterers out there probably started the same way. You can practice all you want, but when that first job comes in you start to doubt. Make a pattern, pounce it with a pounce wheel (if you don't have one use a pattern wheel for sewing), sand the back lightly to open the holes a little and use charcoal powder on the wall. Then...let-er-rip. If the pattern is simple, you'll do fine. Until you learn a few alphabets, just stay in the lines.
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
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In almost 30 years of business I have yet to start a job knowing exactly how I was going to do it. But I always seem to manage fine and learn lots in the process.
Once started you can't go back though.
If you have the ability to make a pattern or project a transparency you can't go far wrong.
I would mask off the wall and area below the panel... thats where the biggest potential for problems is and if you can protect that area you can always paint the wall five times if you have to to get it right.
I would consider acrylic paints on a plaster wall.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Steve, I would do the job using a water based paint, it will dry quicker and is less likely to run than one shot would do on a plaster wall and you can second coat the lettering the same day !! Easy job...... enjoy the ride.
Brian.
-------------------- Brian the Brush brian the brush uk Yorkshire, UK www.brianthebrushuk.com Posts: 123 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2001
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Be light with the charcoal powder. It's best to have the pattern taped to the wall along the top only, then you can check to see how heavy you're putting on the powdre, and whether you got all the letters pounced. getting excess charcoal off a textured wall is very difficult. Duct tape will often work for holding up the pattern where masking won't. Use a fitch, Its a "broom-looking" brush, costs less than quills, but it's THE brush for this job. You cut in the edge of the letter, then fill in the middle, using the brush anyway you need to to get the job done. In a way, it's good that this is your first hand lettering job, since you won't have to deal with slippery oil based paints on a slick surface. You'll be fine! Here's another idea: Test out your ability to "cut" a line in the middle of a bigger letter stroke, instead of on the edge. You can save yourself alot of hassles with paint dripping off the brush, too much paint on the brush, not enough, and such by THINKING about how the paint is loaded into the brush. Some people load the brush, then unload most of it along the edge of their paint can. Instead, load the brush, wipe out a little bit at the heel of the brush, where the bristles meet the handle, and wipe out a little at the tip of the brush, leaving a "loaded" brush in the middle. This way it won't drip off the heel when you're not expecting it (a big problem) and it won't touch down with a big-ol' glob of paint. Later on, on other kinds of jobs, that "touch-down" is an important step, and you don't want to conditiom yourself to be nervous at that point. I hope I havn't made it over complex, you'll be fine, it's manipulating colored varnish with roadkill attached to a stick. At least, if you mke your own brushes! Ha! Also, if you do fudge a little, don't spread the clean-up out any bigger than you must. The clean-up is a scrub then dab dry operation. Sincerly, Jim.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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its actually easier than you think -- i did my first stucco wall last November and it was actually a lot of fun. slow, but fun.
yes, use you plotter to draw the pattern on white butcher paper (bond paper) or brown kraft paper, and pounce by hand with a little pounce wheel. You can get a couple of yards of felt at a craft or fabric store, and put it under the paper to make the pouncing easier. it gives the points something to poke into.
and pick some simple font/fonts for your layout -- san-serif is easier to paint than something with serifs and doodads. i use a lot of House Industries "Sign Painters" fonts and I also use "Impress" (also a hand-painted style font). Those are made to be done with a brush, and you learn a lot by following their "swing".
you'll spend most of your time pushing paint into, over and around the swirls -- dont try to make it perfect. its more important to look consistent.
paint thinner will remove 1-shot. I find that its easier to remove 1-shot from a wall with thinner than to remove latex paints with water, but maybe that's just me. keep the paint sort of thin, and dont get too much in the brush. if you're pushing on the brush the paint drips out of the heel. don't try to put it on "heavy" -- its probably faster to go back and do a light second coat than to glob it on and have drips.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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From one new member to letterville to another "WELCOME", Steve! Is'nt this place a breath of fresh air!!! Don'cha just feel right at home!! Steve, you did'nt mention wether your wall was interior/ exterior....sheetrock, paneling....? Metal corrugated building, cinder block, or brick......? I'm thinkin' you know how crucial good prep is to the longevity and customer satisfaction of your sign....I guess I get bogged down in details, but I even take into account which direction the building faces, "cuz if it's gettin' the sun all day, I might haf'ta charge extra in August!! Get you a set of pounce wheels....it'll take you about 10 minutes or less to hand-pounce a pattern that size.....you can't "tape-off" brick too good, but you can get a good stiff cutter and actually have fun.....I kind'a like that One Shot letterin' enamel, but Ive only ever wiped it off cinder block that had been filled & finished, and off metal or other smooth surfaces.........if your on brick......you might haf'ta go back and touch up an err. I hope ya' just have fun, enjoy the process and meetin' all the people who are gonna stop and ask if you're paintin' that wall!! Hey, take a pic of it to look at in a few years...you'll say " I did pretty g'ud on my first wall-doggin' feat!!! come chat with us!! oneshot
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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OOOH! Boy am I glad I'm not you! I don't like to be discouraging, but three inch letters? On swirled stucco?? Thats a job a lot of very experienced hand letterers would find challenging, not to mention someone who has never lettered at all.
I realize this will not be what you want to hear, but.... do yourself a favor. Find someone who has experience at this, sub the job out, and learn as much as you can in the process. If you absolutely can't get anyone in your time frame, you may want to seriously consider pulling out of this job. It may save you a helluva lot of aggravation and trouble, and if the customer is annoyed by your not doing this job, imagine how he'll feel if it turns into a mess. And trust me. This can turn into a nightmare in a hurry.
I don't want to discourage you from learning, far from it. I'm a great believer in sharing the knowledge, and this much I know - I've done small copy on stucco. Everything about it sucks. Bigger stuff is different - it doesnt have to be super clean to be legible and look decent from a distance, but it sounds like this is meant to be seen fairly up close. That's tough to do well in the best of circumstances.
It's good to get encouragement and support, but there's times when a vinegary dose of reality is more helpful.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Granted there are a lot of details left out here, such as how much copy, and what letterstyle, but with what has been offered, I agree with Cam on this one. You should be nervous, and I dont mean that in a mean way, like cam said just reality here.
Having never done this before, a week is no where enough time to practice even if you lettered day & night. You will need to get some good fitches, try some of the merchants to the left in the purple section. Dont buy the angled ones cuz after a bit they become angled anyway haha.
Also get yourself a fresh pack of underwear and some stress tabs, 3" letters are a bit small for even a smoother cinderblock wall.
But..... I encourage you to try it, if you are not willing ot sub it out to a seasoned letterer and learn along side him ( or her ) like 90% of the hand letterers have.
Let us know how you make out! Good luck!
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just to add some more info about the job. It is on an interior wall, behind a counter. The swirl that I am talking about is just the way the drywall mud was applied before being painted with a latex interior paint.
I bought my shop from the only "hand letterer" in town and he has moved out of state. Subcontracting isn't an option. I figure that I have to at least try it. - Steve
-------------------- Steve Eason Admiral Signs Juneau, AK Posts: 62 | From: Juneau | Registered: Jan 2003
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What I think Cam is talking about is that what's an acceptable "imperfection" on a ten inch letter won't fly on a three inch letter. If you're gonna do this annyway, I'll try to give you a few more tips. Probably you're only chance here is to disregard how much you're making per hour. If I was doing this, and I didn't have a half inch fitch (real small) I'd use some other kind of brush. Artist's oil brushses come inalot of sizes, that's what I'd use.That's the key here, small letters, smaller brush, big patience. The first letter will be the slowest. It's not beyond me to get ahold of some of the background paint to cover those little "jags" here and there. Sincerly, Jim.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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What I think Cam is talking about is that what's an acceptable "imperfection" on a ten inch letter won't fly on a three inch letter. If you're gonna do this annyway, I'll try to give you a few more tips. Probably you're only chance here is to disregard how much you're making per hour. If I was doing this, and I didn't have a half inch fitch (real small) I'd use some other kind of brush. Artist's oil brushses come inalot of sizes, that's what I'd use.That's the key here, small letters, smaller brush, big patience. The first letter will be the slowest. It's not beyond me to get ahold of some of the background paint to cover those little "jags" here and there. Sincerly, Jim.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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DUH!! Steve, sorry I missed the part about a swirled pattern on the wall (which to normal people describes stucco)....I'm also sorry I forgot to mention the effect of paint fumes on your brain!!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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--James Donahue is on the right track. 1-shot, definately a fitch, pounce pattern, snap-line, paint containers, ect. ect.
The fitch will conform to the rough edges of the lettering.
Clean up "boo boo`s" with the background paint.
"It is one of my most favorate type of sign to paint." Have fun with it.
When you are up on the wall, you'll get people who'll come up to you and ask, "Can you paint my wall." This happens almost every time I'm painting a wall.
The pic below shows a wall that is extremely textured. I used a fitch, and 1-shot.
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Steve....just as you are getting ready to put your brush to the wall.....remember...breathe.
Good luck.
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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With due respect to Cam And Bob just do it! If you turned this job away you would not practice you would wait untill you got another job like it. This is the way I learn. If the pressure is on, you have to learn. You have no choice but to figure it out. If it screws up could you paint it on a light substrate and hang it on the wall? Go for it, this is how I have learned alot of what I know. I pinstriped my first hotrod this way. The guy asked if I had any problems pinstriping with the body lines of a 50 chevy. I told him no I took the job and it took me 9 hours for a simple design. I was happy and the customer never knew he was my first.
-------------------- Ryan Young Indocil Art & Design indocil@comporium.net 803-980-6765
I highjacked Letterville!! Winter Muster 2004 Posts: 904 | From: Rock Hill, SC | Registered: Sep 2001
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Cam has given you some really good advise...however if it can't be subbed out and you really want the experience there are a couple of musts here for you (that no one mentioned).
Obtain some of the original color used on the wall for touch up after the runs (oh you're gonna get them)if it's not avalable get a paint store to match it perfectly before you start.
And use a round terminal end alphabet like Vag or American Typwriter...it will take the misery out of the job for you and speed it up considerably.
What ever you do DO NOT use any kind of solvent to remove any drips either leave them or wipe them away with a dry clean rag and touch them up after they dry (with the backgroung color)
I think it's admirable you are tackling this job I love to encourage hand lettering in all aspects...but I gotta tell you that after 35 years doing this stuff...I'd talk them into a a nice panel sign instead of lettering on the stucco...but then I've been there done that!
In any event...good luck and post a picture and description of the job when you are thru and most importantly ...Don't get discouraged (this kind of job can do that).
Oh ...one more thing never try to pul the paint up-hill on a stucco wall (it makes the paint collect and creates runs...always pull everything down and to the right...if your "pushing" the brush you're gonna have troubles...always pull (down and to the right) Oh my god you're not left handed are you?
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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Hi Steve:I started out painting and Painting walls is the easy part.My first nightmare came when I was asked to letter a $50,000.00 truck with vinyl.Like others have said-Just Do It and have fun.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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speaking of vinyl...i would(mind you i'm into speed, ease and i am no hand letterer)cut it in vinyl mask, weed out the letters in a box, stick it on the wall and paint from there...i realize this is cheating but the end result will be paint. also you could practice your technique and not worry too much if you go out of the lines...i realize vinyl doesn't stick well on a semi rough surface but it should stick enough for you to do the job. just a thought
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I'm gonna side with Cam and Monte, this is no place to start out learning to hand letter. I've got the same experience as Monte and I'd too would find another way of doing this job. 3 inch letters on stucco are gonna look pretty crappy even when done by the best in the business. If it were an exterior wall with 12 inch letters I'd say go for it, but three inch letters on stucco, that's right up there at the top in degree of difficulty and is definately an ass puckerer.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Karen has a valid option with the mask. Its still painted letters. On interior walls I have often done this mask method and I'm a 30 year hand painter.
The trick is to coat the stenciled letters with the original wall color first. All the seeps and runs seal the edges of the stencil and your finish coat color is super clean when you remove the mask. Allowing enamel paint to dry on a mask is a no-no, but you can put a few layers of interior water based wall paint and still get a super clean edge. Of course this doesn't work on very textured surfaces though.
Good luck, whatever you do.
-------------------- Mark Casey Casey Sign Co., Inc. Berkley, MI Posts: 76 | From: Berkley, MI, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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O.K. Everyone, after being sufficiently scared I spoke with the customer. He was indifferent as to the copy and has agreed on a simple list of bullets: * BRAKES * ALIGNMENTS * TIRES * (etc. - about eight, with a title on top)
The good news is that the letters are now 6 to 8" and I can smooth the area if I repaint it, i.e.- sand down ridges and repaint wall.
I'm more apt to attempt this one now. I will let you all know how it goes. Thanks again for all of your help! - Steve
-------------------- Steve Eason Admiral Signs Juneau, AK Posts: 62 | From: Juneau | Registered: Jan 2003
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Welcome to the glamorous world of hand lettering! After 28 years in this business, I just realized, when reading your post, that everyday with a sign kit is "pulling it out of my ass" day.
I admire the way you leapt in here with "not doing the job" ...not an option. That's how I learned every thing I know! Committment is key, as well as confidence and professionalism. Well placed humour can ease tension and help you relax.
I admire the way you turned your customer into your friend, by caring enough to share the dilemna. Apparently he respects you, you still have the job.
My favorite brushes are fitches, you can study the bristles, if you practice any, practice getting a tight pin line from it and how to whip up two stroke corners to drool over. The crisper the sign, the better you will be spoken of.
I once did helvetica, in a fanned arc, with the height 1 inch, and the width being 1/4 inch at the bottom and the top at 3/4's of an inch. The brush I used was a 1/4 inch wide fitch. Oh baby, did I mention that it was on canvas? I received a $100 tip on that job.
I spent 56 running hours on that job. It was on a snatch and hurry level. I napped for 30 minutes in a recliner before the last 4 hours were done.
I found out later I was underpaid on that job by gangbusters hahaha! But I was stretched into learning something and I hope we can all see that is the true spirit of a Letterhead! I agree with all of the posts. It's good to look upon all points to a job so that your end result, works for you, not against you!
Soooo, when do we get to see pics of it as you go along?
Wow! ...talk about painting with passion!
[ March 26, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]
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I was wondering about the smoothing out the wall surface idea before you mentioned it Steve. I think that could help, but I would sell them on some kind of nice reverse radius border to frame the sign. Otherwise there will be evidence of your new smoothed texture, & the fresher coat of paint (hopefully a perfect match of hue & sheen, but you never know if they don't have the paint or remember the brand, sheen, etc.)
posted
Well okay then! Smooth the wall and go to 6" or 8" letters - suddenly you will breathe a lot easier. I'm curious though, why this customer requires direct wall lettering, as opposed to a nice panel sign...ah but thats the joy of this business, it does'n have to make sense, does it?
George, I loved that "ass puckerer" comment. Couldn't have said it better myself.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Steve, you did'nt mention wether your wall was interior/ exterior....sheetrock, paneling....? Metal corrugated building, cinder block, or brick......? I'm thinkin' you know how crucial good prep is to the longevity and customer satisfaction of your sign....I guess I get bogged down in details, but I even take into account which direction the building faces, "cuz if it's gettin' the sun all day, I might haf'ta charge extra in August!! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
but you can get a good stiff cutter and actually have fun.....I kind'a like that One Shot letterin' enamel, but Ive only ever wiped it off cinder block that had been filled & finished, and off metal or other smooth surfaces.........if your on brick......you might haf'ta go back and touch up an err. I hope ya' just have fun, enjoy the process and meetin' all the people who are gonna stop and ask if you're paintin' that wall!! Hey, take a pic of it to look at in a few years...you'll say " I did pretty g'ud on my first wall-doggin' feat!!! come chat with us!! oneshot ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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