posted
What is the general experience on the board at this time concerning patriotic signs? At 9/11 I sold, and gave away to very happy recipients, flags, decals, magnetic images of the twin towers and memorabilia and patriotic car adornments ad infinitum.
The only signs I have seen in my town are signs that say "Another Citizen for Peace" -corrugated, mass produced (and no, I did not even get to bid them).
There has not been a single request by phone or in person of any of the above.
Is this a local phenomenon?
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Myra, I only got one request for a flag decal after 9/11.....and today I just made two for my window and van saying Support Our Troops......I see a lot of those around here, home made, of course.
I was wondering the same thing...If I wasn't hurting for money right now I would give them for free...if asked I would probably do them for less than the recommended book price.
posted
Adrienne, what I did after I realized the great desire and the lack of availability at the time of 9/11 (after all we were not prepared for it) is that I put a sign at my road with a little flag on top that said: Stop in for your free car flag decal.
I had more foot traffic and my parking lot full all day long for weeks.
Some of the people of course placed orders. Many are now customers.
I would do this now, but I do not see the decals on the cars, I do not have any requests, and I do not see the desire.
posted
shortly after new years I took off the full window coverage flag decal that I made after 9-11 for my shop. This week, I have felt like I wanted to re-do another patriotic decoration as a show of support. I have not had the demand for this sort of thing from customers, but even after such a catyclismic (sp) shock such as 9-11, the demand for flags, at my shop anyway, didn't really take hold for a few days. Since we are thinking about it, I feel sure others will be as well.
I like the triangulated image shown on the TV of a corner of the field of stars & a few truncated segments of stripes fit into a flag shape. For me that has become a version of our colors that represents this conflict & I may use it on my truck.
posted
After 9/11 we donated our time and materials, and a local supplier some additional materials, to produce decals for the local firefighters to get donations with. They raised $1.1 million with them and their other efforts that went to the FDNY.
The goodwill we reaped was converted into some original decals we sold here, flag decals and general signage. We donated a sizeable percentage of in store sales to various charities and still saw about an extra month's volume in the 4th quarter 2001.
But we were attacked and everybody wanted to express their sorrow and/or anger.
This time around there is a virtual goose-egg for similar demand. It's a totally different mood.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Fred, this is fascinating! $1.1 million, way to go. could you give us any details: what they said, how they were distributed,etc? Did you see the article some years back in SC about how much influence the great Parsons had in a political campaign? I loved it. Maybe there's apart of me that's yearning to believe I'm not powerless. There's alot of talk about how the media has a bias. But please people, I'm not trying to turn a good post political. Just inspired by Parsons. Any details would be appreciated. Thanks, Jim.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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i havent done any...nada ot one. when 9-1-1 happened signs now was givin yard signs...away. i got one request last week for a 3'x5' flag on the side of the building, and they just wanted a price. as for my own..i got 2 honerable discharges, 1969 and 1972....i did my time...
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by James Donahue: Fred, this is fascinating! $1.1 million, way to go. could you give us any details: what they said, how they were distributed,etc? Did you see the article some years back in SC about how much influence the great Parsons had in a political campaign? I loved it. Maybe there's apart of me that's yearning to believe I'm not powerless. There's alot of talk about how the media has a bias. But please people, I'm not trying to turn a good post political. Just inspired by Parsons. Any details would be appreciated. Thanks, Jim.
We had been doing some firehouse mascot decals for several stations on our Gerber Edge before 9/11. After the attack we were asked to make some banners and general signage for a fund raiser the Palm Beach fire fighters union was commencing. A few days later we were approached with an example of a cut vinyl piece that the fire fighters wanted to sell for fund raising. It was pretty inefficient to produce and awkward to apply for a lot of people, so we suggested a window decal of the same layout with white print on clear vinyl.
This was approved and we began producing them as a donation for the first few rolls of material and then at cost after that on their insistence. The yield, as I recall, was about 500 pieces per roll and the firefighters asked a donation of $5 but many people gave more. One firefighter told me about seeing checks being written often in the $100's and a few in the $1,000's.
The actual selling was done at most major intersections by the firefighters with a boot in hand for donations and a second person applying the decal. According to our contact, the typical yield for such efforts in donations was about $2,000 per two man team an hour at it's peak.
We also printed up a variety of flags and patriotic decals for sale in house from which we donated just under $5,000 to the firefighters as a percentage of the proceeds while still retaining a fair price for ourselves.
posted
After 9/11, our newspaper printed out a huge 2 page american flag. My husband promptly hung it up in our upstairs window to face the road. When I first saw it as a surprise while driving to work, it brought a lump to my throat.
Also, there were some firefighter decals circulating for a long time with the american and canadian flags on it. I couldn't believe my eyes when my husband drove home one day and someone had attempted to rip it off his truck window!
Yes, very different this time in many respects. The canadian papers are certainly doing a good job reporting the goings on, but I've yet to see anything else. I think people are maybe somewhat hushed and overwhelmed with it all, very confusing emotions to deal with. I know I am.
posted
since there already still on my server, I'll link to the decals I designed from the Roland "badge & shield" collection back after 9-11. I gave away about half, & sold enough to fundraising groups & end users to break even.
posted
I was told by loads of people that I missed an awsome oppertunity to sell 911 stuff. Instead I gave away flags and such to people and municipalities that would use them and not abuse them. I personaly have great distain for profeteers from any calamity. It is well known that my shop offers legitimate discounts to veterans and serving members of our military, fire and police. Today after riding past a pathetic looking group of "demonstrators" I curbed my appetite to flail obsenities and instead went home.... made flags with "suport our troops" at the bottom and returned to hand them out to the "demonstrators".
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
It takes all kinds, Glenn, and I dislike seeing something that nasty on my post. It took less than 2 minutes to find something on line to counteract it.
Coming back to my original question: There is a store here in town that heavily sold magnetic flags during the aftermath of 9/11, and who even parked a van at an intersection completely covered with them as an advertisement.
That store started running big ads for the same flags in the paper on the day we started bombing Bagdhad. I had thought about calling them, yesterday, to see how sales were going. No need. Today, the ad is in the paper again, and the price is cut in half.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I saw the best presentation of anti-war views I have yet seen on TV the other day. Several VietNam veterans against the war spoke at a meeting about their views. It was refreshing to hear intelligent anti-war views given airtime to have their views heard. Adm. Gene LaRocque was one of the speakers who I found very informative.
Too many in this country do not make an effort to find information, so when other folks spout prejudiced caricatures of those who support peace, either maliciously, out of ignorance, or misplaced perceptions of patriotism, they are helping no one, while hurting their own credibility.
Here's an offering from my 2 minutes worth of searching the net
quote: Support the Troops: End the War and Bring Them Home
I'm getting pretty tired of hearing well-meaning but ignorant people say, "We can't protest the war--we need to support our troops!" As anyone who wasn't a right-wing fool in the 1960s knows, one of the strongest and most vocal contingents of antiwar protestors was Viet Nam veterans themselves. "Vets to the front!" was the ubiquitous cry at antiwar protests, and the members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (some 300,000 strong) were present at virtually every antiwar protest during the Viet Nam war era. Ten years ago, Vietnam Vets Against the war rallied once again to support GI resistance among Gulf War soldiers. Today they've joined forces with Gulf War veterans and other groups of veterans for peace to challenge all those who claim that supporting our soldiers means letting our government send them to war. The liberal wing of VVAW has been issuing statements against Gulf War II, and about the concerns of and for soldiers for over a year now. The radical wing (splintered off in the 1980s, with a hard-line Marxist perspective) is still active as well, and operates under the name Vietnam Veterans Against the War-Anti-Imperialist. You can find the comments of more antiwar veterans at Veterans For Peace and Citizen Soldier.
The right wing has done everything it could to erase the voices of the majority of Viet Nam veterans in the wake of the disaster that was U.S. policy during the Sixties and early Seventies. The idea that the peace movement is anti-soldier is an outright lie. Of all the tales of peace activists spitting on Viet Nam veterans that I've ever heard or read about, not a single one has ever been documented. I have, however, seen footage of World War II veterans, who belonged to Veterans of Foreign Wars, spitting in contempt at the feet of Viet Nam veterans at a peace march. It's the right who hates soldiers and wants to kill them. It's the left who wants to bring the soldiers home, who respects human life and human rights.
posted
I believe Myra's intent was to discuss signage relating to patriotism. It's so easy to get off topic as we all want to discuss this in depth! Best to get back on topic or risk getting another post locked.
You're right, it is important to find out information from all sides. So, I submit to you and others the following.....
quote: A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head." -- http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r
While the Anti-War crowd say they want "peace", by their actions they are unintentionally protecting sadists and murderers. Its a lesson these human shields had to learn the hard way. War protestors may think they are helping cause of peace. All they are doing is extending the war and misery of their fellow human beings that they say they support.
Sorry, thats just how I "feel."
---
As to patriotic signage, I'll add this.....
I love the hat.
[ March 23, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
See, as time passes more information becomes available to Glenn, & the world. With more time spent on getting information out to the world, maybe global opinion could have turned more fully against Saddam, & with more universal & unanimous opposition to Saddam's murderous ways. (which BTW no one needs convincing of)
If world opinion had been aligned fully before going in to disarm Saddam, maybe the increased imbalance of a unified world against one country, would have increased the chance of more surrendering troops, less pockets of resistance, & as a result less death & destruction on both sides of this war.
Thanks for sharing the graphic description of screams from victims being brutally shredded by Saddam, but I have the 12 American POW's on my mind right now & that is depressing enough.
As I said, I don't think anyone needs to be convinced of Saddam's brutality. I have said this past week that I became convinced that the goal of disarming Saddam would probably not be achieved without force. The issue of U.S. force being applied before the global community rallied their support has got to have some effect on the outcome, both in how Iraq's troops evaluate their option of surrender, & in how global public opinion shapes the future of America's standing in the world.
All of that is well and good. But, sometimes you have to do what is right regardless of "global opinion." What is sad to me is that it has taken the start of this war for it to begin turning.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
link 1 : No Glenn, those 41 countries are not the international support GWB's father was suggesting dubya wait for
quote:In an ominous warning for his son, Mr Bush Sr said that he would have been able to achieve nothing if he had jeopardised future relations by ignoring the UN... ...Mr Bush Jr, who is said never to forget even relatively minor slights, has alarmed analysts with the way in which he has allowed senior Administration figures such as Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, aggressively to criticise France and Germany.
Link 2: once again you prove that given time, the evidence that is gathered & made available could shed light on an incredibly important issue to the world. If even "Stormin' Norman" didn't have enough data to stop denouncing this war on Iraq until last month, maybe the rest of the world should have been given a little more time as well. Thus allowing dubya to proceed in line with the advice from George Bush 41 (in John's link 1 above)
Link 3: Having read all three in their entirety, # 3 did the least for me so I'm not inclined to put much into defending it. Regardless of what Maureen Dowd's reputation is (I have no clue)she does have quotes from Newsweek, Fox News, Bush senior, & Bush junior so I would think it has more credability then just a single reporters opinion.
oops, forgot a pic...
[ March 23, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
It seems that not only has German companies been illegally supplying Iraq weapons manufacturing equipment, Russian companies have been illegally supplying GPS jammers, anti-tank weapons and night-vision goggles. All four countries - Russia, France, China & Germany - have been circumventing Iraq's "containment." No wonder they were opposed to the coalition. Seems Rumsfeld was justified in his criticism.
Now the troops have found a 100 acre chemical weapons facility that Blix and the UN didn't know about.
I'm just curious as to why France said it would veto any second resolution regardless.
and the sign is cool, too... Great illustration. I like the retostyle on it. The lettering is clean and nicely laid out. Good use of negative space. The colors give the sign some nice visual impact.
I'd give that piece... er... peace a chance...
Have a great one!
Almost forgot...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
If there were another outlet for our emotions, which are running amok at this time of war, I feel this post would not have been hijacked to pose as one. I guess the “political” in the heading drew the patriots and nationalists with their various offerings for public perusal.
I looked it up:
Patriotism is the love for or the devotion to one’s country.
Nationalism is the loyalty and devotion to a nation, exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promoting it’s culture and interests as opposed to those of others
So to me these definitions mean that a true patriot does not have to hide behind nationalism and the waving of flags to justify causes that are clearly not altruistic; in favor of humanity. A true patriot does not have to support the requests for more guns and weapons from a President who behaves like an out of control war machine, and then, out of the other side of his mouth, asks us to pray for peace.
Instead, I think, a true patriot carefully and vocally questions the actions and words of his or her leadership and always seeks the truth. There should not be any faulting of him or her for this by nationalists.
Confusing patriotism and nationalism is happening and it is a dangerous mistake, because in the inflamed and hateful rhetoric the truth gets distorted, unrecognized, lost.
On my rotating quote screen saver one quote keeps showing up: “Nationalism is an infantile idea. It is the measles of mankind” Albert Einstein.
Americans are an honorable and loving people. We Americans at this very time must guard against unquestioningly and blindly accepting the actions of our leaders as honorable. There are, I believe, some 160 countries that do NOT think we are doing the right thing. Some of those are long time friends and allies; who, in my opinion, instead of going along with what they think is a rash and unnecessary action are acting as global patriots by opposing it.
Somewhere in what I just wrote is an answer to explain why at a time when we are losing our soldiers in battle, and at a time when many say they support the war, those honorable and loving Americans are not putting the flags on their cars and in their windows.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Mainly I was just showing I can dig up some "credible" types against whats happening. Course, it'll be broken down and slanted towards the other viewpoint. These are scary times. Not due to the fact that saddamm has weapons to worry about, we still dont know that, but because of the process being used to find that out. We have struck first now. We are being seen as the agressors, a position alot of americans are not comfortable with. Im afraid we will have alot to answer for after this conflict to the international community. And say what you will, we need our alliances. We are a strong country, but the alliances we have built up are important to us. I hope they are still there after all this, and I hope we are still here. We have absolutely stirred up a hornets nest. God help us all.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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My problem is with those who use such things (peace protests) to subvert and destroy from within that which we fight to keep and those unable to recognize the difference.
BTW, Einstein supported socialism.
---
Obligatory pic.....
God bless those patriotic protestors! Except for the margins, the layout isn't half bad.
[ March 23, 2003, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
With things pretty much rolling along in the exact way you have been supporting - why is there so much rage, disdain and judgment prevalent in the images you keep digging up and parading for us.
When things are going my way I get happy.
Or is it some more of that same syndrome of not really being too comfortable in our skin, which makes our citizens keep those little flags tucked away.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I had to check out where you got several of your pics Glenn. kinda scary IMO...
quote: FIGHTING THE LEFT... DOING IT RIGHT! Welcome to ProtestWarrior.com, a website created to help arm the liberty-loving Silent Majority with ammo -- ammo that strikes at the intellectual solar plexus of the Left.
Encouraged by our successful crashing of the February 16th San Francisco anti-war protest, we decided it was time for the Left to put down their megaphones, peel off their bumper stickers, and listen to the people who believe in the core values of this country.
not a lot of "freedom of speech", "agree to disagree", or "live & let live" values on that site. I hope your not taking on more then just pics from those folks.
my pic.. Kenneth Watersbey, 10, holding a picture of his father, Staff Sgt. Kendall Damon Watersbey, who was killed on Thursday after a CH-46E Sea Knight helicopter crashed in the desert near the Iraqi border.
Which pics are showing rage? The only "rage" I see is from the "peace" marchers.
Personally, I find the guy in the wig a hoot! And, the babe in the bikini cut jeans is...well...ask Bruce.
As for the disdain and judgement, you misunderstand. I enjoy clever demonstrations of "absurdity by being absurd". We Pro-USA'ers aren't the ones waving banners promoting collectivism and hate while demanding "peace".
Am I happy that we're at war? No. No one wants war. But, I am happy that we are finally saying what we mean and meaning what we say. To do otherwise only emboldens people like Osama and Saddam. At the same time, we are offering an opportunity to those who want the freedom we have. To some of us, its something worth fighting and dying for.
I'm quite comfortable in my "skin". I just wish my legs would tan better.
As for those who hide their flags, they're the ones with the problem. Its a symbol of the greatest and free'est nation in modern history. My grandfather died for that flag. My uncle was tortured for that flag. For all its imperfections, I'm proud of America and what it stands for and I'm not afraid to say so. If that bothers anyone, I will not apologize.
quote: not a lot of "freedom of speech", "agree to disagree", or "live & let live" values on that site. I hope your not taking on more then just pics from those folks.
Doug, Perhaps you should read up on some of those pics. ANSWER, the organizer of the "peace march" tried to rope them off "illegally" from the march. That is, until a report caught wind of what was happening and started asking quesions.
Protestwarriors.com is just a small but effective counter to what we see as an effort to destroy the principles this country was founded on. They are also doing it with a bit of humor.
As for the pic, I have one too. Its of my grandfather in uniform before he was killed in an ambush. My grandmother and my mother, who both lost so much, support the current action.
---
Speaking of *"freedom of speech", "agree to disagree", or "live & let live" values*, why are the peace marchers defending someone who murders anyone who is the antithesis of those values. When can we expect the peace marchers to begin their parade in downtown Baghdad?
[ March 24, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
glen, i got one thing that you dont have....to base my decision on how i feel...its called an HONERABLE DISCHARGE !!!!! when you have worn the uniform of a soldier and lived as a soldier then i will take all your CUT & PASTE seriously. untill then son, you need to really open your eyes. and i see the same road being takein here as the govt did back in the 60's.....only your so intelectual you can see past your own ego. iam done .....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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You're right. I have never worn the uniform. The military has some silly medical rules against those who have pins in their left knee.
It doesn't weaken my argument.
Ego has nothing to do with proudly standing up for something you believe in. My grandfather, great-uncle, three uncles and father - all of whom have worn the uniform - can attest to that.
posted
you must got the pin in your knee when you tryed to punch a demonstrator.....good way to stay outa the war....and it DOES WEAKEN your position....with me anyway. and youre family was...CONFEDERATES?
[ March 24, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The pacifist and anti war wariors kept the USA out of WWII almost long enuf to let Hitler win...
The pacifists kept the US out of Korea long enuf for it to turn into a conflageration.. the killed to many of our troops
The pacifist public opinion kept the world out of Camboidia long enuf for them to have killing fields that killed millions. The pacifists made public opinion against the viet nam policies.. ( remember when they dint want to bomb the levies) and caused the US to lose more than necessary, The comms finally went to the peace dable when they started bombing the levies
And twelve years of pacifism has cost the US attacks on the embasies, the Cole, Samalia, Yemen
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
i stand very proud to be am american, with the true convictions of a VETERAN of WAR THAT MENT NOTHING and a son of a WW 2 VETRAN father. and iam more of a patriot then most who use the word!!!!! sorry myra....but I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND I PUT IN MY TIME. and iam not proud of this administration!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Sad to see how a conversation can deteriate. The truth is always changing...depending upon the beliefs of the person telling. Will you ever understand that your truth is simply YOUR truth? I fear not.
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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Was it really necessary to cast dispersions on Glenn's character by inferring that he was a coward or worse?
That was a cheap shot. Being in the Armed Services may give you a different perspective but it does not give you any other rights, light, or benefits.
I knew it was only a matter of time until someone started acting very stupidly. You disappoint me, Joe. Not that my opinion means anything in the big scope of things.
I truly thought you were above that. I won't thank you for proving me wrong.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I just returned from a wonderful weekend with my Venture Crew, camping high in the Whites, at Carter Notch.
It was great to get up into the mountains, to escape the cacophony of witless drivel from armchair generals and from Bush-bashers, from the self-styled world experts and the so-called voices of reason.
Tuning back in this morning, I find that there are a still a handful of you slugging away at each other, using ad hominem arguments and vapid bumper-sticker retoric.
How unbecoming.
This is no longer a debate between war-mongers and peacenics. This isn't even the left against the right. This has now become Dumb vs. Dumber.
There's a war on. Grow up.
[ March 24, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Steve Purcell ]
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 900 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Kenneth Watersbey, 10, holding a picture of his father, Staff Sgt. Kendall Damon Watersbey, who was killed on Thursday after a CH-46E Sea Knight helicopter crashed in the desert near the Iraqi border.![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Sad to see how a conversation can deteriate. The truth is always changing...depending upon the beliefs of the person telling. Will you ever understand that your truth is simply YOUR truth? I fear not. 
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