posted
All I have to say to all of this is the two quotes from Bush that will always stick in my mind. It set the image I have of him. #1. When he put his hat in the ring to run for president, he was asked what his inspiration was to run for the highest office in the land. He put on the "smirk" and looked at the interviewer and said, "they asked me". Would like to know who "they" are. #2. Also being interviewed on TV, was asked about a year ago, why Iraq? Answer. "they tried to kill my dad". Oh....forgot the "smirk". I'll stop here! Got to get to work!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
All I have to say to all of this is the two quotes from Bush that will always stick in my mind. It set the image I have of him. #1. When he put his hat in the ring to run for president, he was asked what his inspiration was to run for the highest office in the land. He put on the "smirk" and looked at the interviewer and said, "they asked me". Would like to know who "they" are. #2. Also being interviewed on TV, was asked about a year ago, why Iraq? Answer. "they tried to kill my dad". Oh....forgot the "smirk". I'll stop here! Got to get to work!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
The bravery displayed on this board is commendable. Future generations will long remember the noble efforts of the brave laptop bombardiers, war bloggers, and armchair generals who sacrificied so much to vanquish our enemies.
And to think that many of those did it without any previous military or battle experience other than the skills aquired playing Unreal tournament and Doom. (What's the difference anyways?) Regardless, that's enough for me to believe all of you have the moral authority to send other peoples children to do the job.
The freedoms lost over the years to these un-constitutional adventures will never be regained. Si mentioned the cost is worth it, the billions spent for making the world safer for Haliburton and Israel. Sure, I'll remember that the next time one of you posts about our large, socialist government taking too much. How do you think they get into position to do it? Now a war is started, supposedly, on the premise of what a nation might do, not what they have done. We have crossed the Rubicon.
Well I have to go now, being just miles from the Canadian border. I hear word there's trouble a brewin'. Hey, just a thought though, why is it the Canadians aren't generating the hostility we get? Not as much prosperity or freedom as we have, or do they mind their own business better?
Just some ramblings from a right wing antiwar nut. See Si, there is such an animal. More of us here= http://www.antiwar.com
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
America...If you don't love it LEAVE IT! (Qoute Merle Haggard) Hit the border Mr. "Right". Canada would be a nicer place for you to hide behind a Anti-war protest sign with all the High School kids that don't have a clue either.
You're lucky you can hide here behind the great freedom we all enjoy thanks to the Veterans who went before us to give you the freedom to cowardly say what you wish. Just as I can speak my mind as well. As someone who travels overseas and was a Military Infantry Vet, I quite frankly LOVE AMERICA. Just Bring it!
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
if we are going to be at war i would rather it be in iraq than in the good old usa.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ya steve, and who is goona sooth them kids who lost thier parents 9/11????
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I’ve been off thinking, like I said I would. I find now that this thread, much to my surprise, is still here! I also find support by some, and that is very much appreciated. I don’t post my opposing views for fun, sport or games. I do it to keep the pendulum swinging, and thought and hope alive.
Doug is, like Cam was in the monster post, anguished and giving it his all. I can really appreciate the work and care he gave at expressing his struggle with these issues. I can’t be the only one who thinks that there is merit in such labor for him personally, and a benefit for us whom he allows to share in the journey as he arrives at his own opinions. This ought to stimulate us, too, to think for ourselves. The difference between this and canned off the hip one liners, usually negative or derisive and mostly not even original, is blatant.
In Adrienne’s post, as well I see genuine and honestly searching questions. I also see implied answers, and I see that her mind is pretty much made up about what these answers are. I don’t mean this as a judgment, just a mention of that I notice it. I talked about her question where she compares Hitler and Saddam at length in another post. This is a subject dear to my heart, and it will always pull my strings, because I was born into a war ravaged Europe 2 weeks after D-Day, and lived with gratitude for the liberators my whole life. I feel that the Americans gave me my childhood, which would have been doomed otherwise, or ended before it began. Then they took me in and allowed me to become one of them 35 or so years later. The differences of then and now, of an unqualified need then to go to war to end one, and an unqualified need now not to start one, are glaring in my view. Unfortunately that post was taken off the board in less time than it had taken for me to write it. I think for Adrienne, who is expressing a desire to understand this difference, it would have been beneficial to read it. Had this been possible, and had she thought it through, I am willing to place a small bet that this question would not have appeared in her list any more.
It has been more than 6 weeks now since our President last spoke to Jacques Chirac. It has been way longer than that since he spoke to the German chancellor. Nobody questions that the Iraqi dictator should be removed. The unanimity of the world was in reach. There were ways to do it without engendering world distrust and ill will and by playing by the rules. I believe we messed up.
Victory in Iraq is a certainty. We have 400 billion and they 1.5 billion in what we spend on the military. But our victory will not bring the world back on board as our allies - because we did not play by the rules. Much has been destroyed in the last two years by our professed and demonstrated lack of team play. Cheering Iraqis, liberated into bomb delivered democracy, and then ruled by the US will not rebuild world cooperation.
I read that in February of 2003, according to Ha’aretz the Israeli newspaper, undersecretary of State John Bolton told Israeli officials that after defeating Iraq the United States would “deal with” Iran, Syria and North Korea. Think about it.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey Steve, You are Right!! IT IS ABOUT OIL!!!! It is about the oil money that will feed a nation and not go into creating a military empire for a madman. The world is willing to buy this oil at a market value, but only stupidity would allow the profits go to Saddaam. So please feel free to BOO at the next hockey game, basketball game, or circle **** you attend.
I have never booed a (Sports Game in My Life.) as I believe that these overpaid "JOCKS" with NO True Talent!, will never get my money!!!!! I do give to the people that really need the help!
But that is just me.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I for one would be willing to bet; NOBODY over here relly wants a war or the results of one, but I also bet that NOBODY wants to give up they're rights or liberties ! Its always some "mental case" dictator who starts threatening our quality of life, our ability to earn a lifestyle we prefer, they call us "capitolist pigs" why cause we built a soceity based on FREEDOM and they're people would like the same? Well that upsets the applecart for they're plans to stay in power, to rule their people and keep them burdened and hungrey. The U.S usually ends up paying for most of the food and meds for these people, these people who are fed constant propaganda of how the "capitolist pigs" only want the oil.
Get serious folks, you are here because you are givin the right to be, without that right (protection from a country not afraid to be politically INCORRECT)you might be in the middle east, and they wouldn't "ask you to fight", they would MAKE YOU FIGHT !!
Years ago, as a 'workin man", I observed a conversation between my (arogant boss)and a damn good mechanic in the shop, the boss never liked the mechanic because he wouldn't bow down, act afraid, nor would the mechanic worry about being "politically correct". So in the conversation, the boss dramitically requested the mechanic "get his truck and load-up his tools" !! The mechanic calmly pondered and finaly said to the boss "ya know, it would be a lot easier if YOU just picked up yer pencil, load it in yer pocket and get on down the road"
It would have been a lot easier if Saddam just loaded up and went on down the road, let his suffering people have some rights, and some liberties, food, health care, all those things we AMERICANS seem to take for granted !!!!!!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
What is it with you people, making too much money? well you must have too much time on your hands to sit here bitching at each other, why can't you agree to disagree and move on, and some of it, man I've never read so much jingoistic rubbish in my life, if you hadn't noticed we have 8 dead British royal marines, 4 US aircrew and 1 US marine so far and its gonna get worse before it gets better, now think on their loved ones not yourselves and go and make SIGNS!!!! back to work.......
[ March 21, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Broughton ]
-------------------- Steve Broughton Alpha Grafix Signs Lowfields Road Benington, Boston Lincolnshire, England Posts: 315 | From: Boston, Lincolnshire, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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To the war protestors here... We're the bad guys here in America? Just one question then ...if Hussein were to leave the country he professes to love - and if he cares so much for his people - and he understands that the world is against him and his days are numbered - then HIS choice to NOT leave is what is causing this aggression - not the United States. Would he be the hero if he said "OK - I'll leave"?
We are only answering the (up to now) silent call from almost all the other Middle Eastern countries who want him gone also. Get your facts straight. There are many things of which you have no knowledge so your debate is founded only on your opinion - not 100% fact. (I despise war also - but I'm not in politics so I refuse to armchair QB)
So how is it that we are the selfish, uncaring aggressors? The Iraqis are the ones who are quietly pleading with us to help them. How will you respond when you see them kissing the feet of the coalition that freed them after this is over?? Will war have been OK then? I'd like to see it not happen as much as anyone.
Just by our first salvos launched on the first night, we tried to eliminate Hussein - based on intelligence reports) and end the chances for this going further. That's a policy that reeks of aggression? "Let's spare these people and just get this guy - and then it's all over" sounds less like an aggressor and more like a reluctant, compassionate, yet powerful world leader. Somebody has to be the big dog on the block - and it sucks to be us - but if not us then who? That's how history has been shaped since the art of war was introduced. We don't dominate countries and own them after we finish - we leave and let them govern themselves. Then WE pay to rebuild them. That's the mark of an aggressor?
It seems that most everyone here - if not all of you - understands that Hussein is a bad guy who inflicts punishment on his own people. Yet the name calling and labeling goes on in this post and others. Pacifists, liberals, conservatives, etc.
How about this... we are all free human beings living in free countries and enjoy that right as a result of past wars and aggressions. Yet every person critical of the Iraq policy so far benefits from past actions like these. We are not the same country we were with silly foreign policiies like we had in VietNam. It is a new world - and the enemy does not have borders, wear uniforms or possess armies. But despots like Hussein only empower them by giving them credibility - and supporting them because of sharing a common enemy - the U.S.
This is all based around a policy/doctrine written by Paul Wolfowotiz after the first Gulf War that suggests preemptive strikes to stop problems from arising before they must be dealt with by the nations of the world - specifically the U.S. The policy was reintroduced by V.P. Cheney (who rewrote the original doctrine after the U.S. and Wolfowitz got ripped by the press after it was leaked back in '91) after 9/11. It seemed at the time that the Wolfowitz draft of the original doctrine/policy was seen then as too aggressive for a united coalition of willing countries.
Our freedom (the worlds freedom) has come at the cost of a lot of blood (as I said, I personally don't care for war) and though all countries have suffered through war - maybe it is the only thing that will help stop further attacks on innocent citizens.
Europeans and Canadians and other countries may not care for our governments policies - but they don't label all Americans as aggressors or war-mongers. Only our Government. Since we are all signmakers here, why don't we give them a chance to see if their foreign policy and ways of dealing with terrorism work first. Then let's have the finger-pointing and the "I told you so's".
It sure seems like a lot of the armchair politicians and political science experts here are in the wrong business. How would you like it if the politicians came into your shop and told you how to run things?? There is much that we don't know people - and while it is our right to express our varied points of view - the name calling and opinion bashing should wait until this is all done. Then you can begin the name calling.
Again, if Hussein left, no problem - no war. He stays, he causes war to happen against "my people". Our fault? Then answer this: Which came first, the chicken - or the egg?
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We've been watching this post closely. Emotions are running high and we have bent the rules to allow you to express yourselves. I hope I have made the right decision.
Last night I watched the pro and anti war protesters fight it out on the tv screen. In one instance, protesters actually came to blows with each other.
Those of us who remember the Vietnam War protests saw families torn apart. Many of the emotional wounds were so deep, it took years to heal. In extreme cases, it never did heal. I have no intention of allowing all the positive things we have accomplished here together, be diminished or destroyed because of political issues that have nothing to do with our Letterville community.
All my instincts tell me to delete this thread before you start beating up on each other personally. To be honest, I see the same old people debating the same old issues. I suspect some of the editorials are not even the writer's own words, but comments by cut and pasted. Is their really anything good that can result from this debate?
Barb and I are going out for dinner with Joe and Angel Endicott. Maybe I won't be so upset once I get something to eat. In any event, there is a good chance that this topic and future attempts to keep things stirred up over political issues may be deleted. This is a Letterhead Meet. Remember?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Some of the support here for our troops strike me as looking like the cowboy riding in on his white horse. Some references to protestors sound like convicting the villan with the black hat. (not you C.J. )
As we all know in a lucid moment, we are not really so polarized into black & white.
So off with the rose colored glasses for some, & out from the shadows for others, & let a little light shine on the colorful diversity in our neighborhood. We owe each other a little more "bit depth" in our views. We may not really fall so far into different camps if we apply a little color management into staying in the light.
I scanned the posts on this thread one by one, looking for cut and paste opinions, and I simply cannot find a more personal array of commentary, full of individual and well known idiosyncracies of the people posting.
It is not up to me to agree or disagree with your assessment. But I surely can't see it. I hope you have a splendid dinner, I hope this will remain sufficiently civil to not warrant deletion when you return.
Everywhere we look it's "America at War." It will fester on our minds whether we as the Letterville community have a way to talk to each other about it or not. We can't be single dimensional, or we would not be the diverse group of people our posts show us to be.
I, if given a voice, also vote for locking vs. deletion of posts.
posted
as most of the war mongers have said....us liberials are reactionary and the right is ACTION. heres a point to ponder, since we liberals think... this whole thing is similar to a disease. yep the war disease. it all started with an infection of the AL-QUIDA virus with the attack on the U.S. not all of us got infected with the REVENGE flu. those that did are now into the last stages of the disease, sort like a rabid dog, before the disease consumes him and he dies from it. we have all seen this, and totally understand it from a "illness" point of view. but this war virus is insidious, sorta like alcoholisum, most are consumed by it even after they realize they are sick. now iam not saying that i wasnt affected by 9-1-1 far from it. but aperently i didnt get the flu.....i dont want more DEAD PEOPLE because it will make me feel better. those of you who have the flu will not get better even after this war because you will need more of the drug(killing) to try to make you feel better...war is infectious, you have been bombarded with stimulants(washington, rush, media hype) on how its gona make you all feel better once we get rid of the revenge flu. well some understand your plight, we are the one who are imune or have been infected before and gotten well. their is hope for a cure.....its called UNDERSTANDING, FOREIGN DIPLOMACY, GIVE AND TAKE, AND LETS ALL TRY TO LIVE IN PEACE. someday this disease will no longer be a threat to any of us......we can always hope.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Does one really have the jewels to post their 3800 post as a non resident? Their is just not enough entitlements out there...
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Why don't you organise a "peace movement", yeah, instead of all the "street protesting' in this country and others, you could start a campaighn for all liberals.
You get the phone #,e-mail addresses,etc. of all the tyrants, dictators, opressive types in control of these agressive countries/ groups.
Then you liberals could get on the communication lines and ask these bad asses to PLEASE stop the teiriny(sp) and "give peace a chance" !!!!
What about it Joe? think all you liberals could get together and do something positive ? Or , did you just want some cheese with that.....
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Awww give my buddy OP a break. He is a good guy. He just wants peace. And who the **** cares if he isn't a resident. I don't.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I'm all for locking this one Steve. It's kinda odd how the debating went so civil, until the war started . I'm quickly gaining respect for some folks and losing it for others. That applies to people on both sides of the dabate, or what was once a debate
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
conservative gloating is simply a pumped up self-important form of whining. Don't confuse your gloating with "doing something positive" because for those with eyes to see, it is purely negative.
You don't have to agree with everything OP says (I know I don't) to show him respect. I respect the different viewpoints here & the people who stand behind them, but views that are nothing more then an attack on the views of others do not garner much respect.
posted
I think the anti war people are painted with too broad a brush. I see them a anti war which really is anti killing. This is a great and noble cause.
But if they are percieved as anti self-protection then I would guess that would bring contempt.
deleting posts. < please don't
whenever a society has no legitimate outlet of expression there are consequences. The main of which is that the participatns will go underground which in the long run detracts from the respect and authority of those in charge.
a point:
In the past some emotions were vented thru less than professional emails. Locking and editing a post is good. Deleting sometimes backfires.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Mike...someone suggested I do a bumper sticker with a peace sign that said "Footprint of the American Chicken" But I didn't want to bring chickens into this!
We are a loveable Signwriting Community here. Recently got to meet many of you in my travels. Known many of you thru this place and the Chat Channel for years.
Never in that time have I found amoung you a "Neighbour" I feel I have to build a 12ft razor wire fence on my boundry to keep yer out!
I respect your political opinions. I have my own! But use somewhere else to grab each other by the throat! This is a SIGNWRITER'S town!
I haven't found one person yet who wanted this war. It's there now for reasons beyond our individual control. Yer can't change life. It has no boundaries in this modern world of air travel and internet. We all suffer together.
The Pros and Cons will go on forever!
Steve ... please lock this thread ... before friends here stop being worldwide SIGNWRITING mates!
posted
Roger, dont throw stones that can be thrown back. OP offers alot to this board. Hell, I dont always agree with everything he says, but hes always there to help out on posts of sign nature. Its too bad you think of liberals the way you do. This liberal uses quite a bit of your rapid tac. Doubt I will anymore though. Your words are too strong on a post that seemed to be very intelligent. To a point. And Jack, the old idea that only residents are allowed to participate in certain issues is long gone. There are quite a few visitors that add alot to this board. Out of those 3800 posts OP has made, most of them have been of a helpful nature. Some of you just cant let it get away from being personal. Ive thought all day about this war, and had alot to add to this post, but the heck with it. Im too liberal to be taken serious. See now, you guys got to me. Thats what you wanted, to get the sh** stirred up. Oh yeah, OP for president.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
OP made lots of those posts as a resi ( i believe) that is until he fell upon a few hard days..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Even though some of his comments sound like he has a few bubbles in his think tank... on Chat, we all consider him a personal friend!!!!
Myra, John and Doug...please don't take these debates as personal attcks! None of us like or enjoy war. We all need a chance and place to vent and express our feelings, at a time like this. Personal attacks are not appropriate.
Hopefully this war will end soon, with minimal losses to both sides.
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Who mentioned O P? I just think there is a time to join, or stand a little further back with the opinions. I don't understand the liberal ways, but will respect your rights to have and to share them.... and I am certainly not anti-guest. I share a lot of generousities with people down on there luck, just not 3800 of them. Oh, and when I share generousities with them, I don't expect to listen to all their long winded political debagle, telling me how pitiful my conservative ways are. If you don't catch a lot of this in a huge percentage of those posts, then you aren't reading them. Oh, and this is not meant as a personal attack against anyone, unless you make it one. Maybe if you will read the last of those posts, you will see a personal attack on every conservative person reading this thread. I'm a conservative, as are most others on the board. Just something I felt compelled to say after 3 years of reading this crap (amazing how you can defend it), and I will say no more on the matter... Oh, and here's my friggin smilie
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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