posted
Hello all, Anybody run sandblast resist through a friction fed cutter ??(I'm running a Summa DuraSign) Working on blasting donor names into SAR Acrylic ... farming the actual blasting part.
Have tried the Anchor med. and high tack but they crushed in the pinchers and the little pieces didn't hold well (insides of A's etc.) ... and the way they powder it is a mess.
Tried Gerber 521, much better through rollers, little better holding the little stuff.
The blast guy suggested the 3m520 ... wait another week for roll to get the variation with "easy release liner". The second I loaded it the rollers spun the resist right off the liner ... it was almost comical Tried to get the 520HRL (high release liner) ... nowhere to be found.(did hear "maybe" but a 21 day lead "maybe") Now I have a roll of the 3m523F (friction fed) coming ... this roll I will have to eat if it doesn't work. Haven't found anything that tracks very well either ... understandably. Have a tractor fed SuperSprint under a bunch of dust and paperwork, maybe that's the way to go? (want to cut larger than 15" but...)
Anybody have any advise on resist materials that work in "a pinch" hehehe
I'm runnging out of scrap pieces to test
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The Hartco 425 series is thick and more rigid (like flexible PVC or something). I use it on my friction feed without problems. I use anchor as well though without problems but I have never seen the Hartco get the little ridges like you mentioned. Hartco doesn't do well on prepainted signs for me. Always pulls the paint/primer off. Hope that helps!
[ March 19, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Thought I'd respond, but have no effectively *proven* suggestions.
I've heard of some people having marginal success with friction plotters/resist stencil; however, as you might know, the other problem occurs over *lengths*. Those who have had success with certain resists usually had to use some supplemental glue (for applicatiion to substrates) with the low-tack resists that worked for them through their plotters.
One of my plotters is a 30" Ioline Super88 (Good, decent, friction plotter) and I tried many times to get it to cut resist. I had to do a whole time-consuming setup and test cuts and even then...past two feet I'd often loose tracking.
I've tried tables to allow the media paths to and from the plotter an *easy* run. I had a few successes with a lot of aggravation and lost much time(and $)until I bought a Gerber Envision 750 (sprocket-fed)and it's been a breeze ever since.
One thing you might try to allow more roller *grab* is putting tape (masking) under the path of your rollers with the *thinner* resists.
Also slowing plotter to its minimal speed and putting plotter in the center of a long table and reeling out your resist for as straight and level a path to and from the plotter as can be achieved; i.e., not coming off the roll (to the floor).
In every instance, follow mfgr's setup suggestions or do a web search on the subject for your particular plotter if info is not readily available in manual form.
Also, I recall taking one of the paired set of springs out of the major pinch rollers to reduce friction against the resist and avoid *curling*. (Your rollers may be different).
I used to tape cardboard ramps on the front and back of the plotter (on a table) to accomodate smooth transition of the media...minimize drag, etc. Other than these ideas, I'd suggest investing in a tractor-fed plotter if you can foresee doing more sandblasted signs in the future. I know I haggled with the idea for a while before purchasing one myself. One of he best things I ever did was to stop *resisting* ...LOL... and buy an appropriate plotter for the task.
Finally, don't necessaily believe what certain mfgrs. of friction plotters tell you. Most don't cut resist well and those that do, well, entail using the thinner, low-tack materials with a setup akin to what I described above.
All in all, my signs could have been done to completion by the time all my setup, tests, cutting and ajustments were over.
PS...paper back (vs. quick release acetate) backing also helps feed and tracking problems.
Hope this enlightens you somewhat...
-------------------- Fran Maholland Pro Sign NJ Posts: 169 | From: Voorhees, New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Just to add my two cents, we are still in the "dark" ages and have no friction feed plotter at all. We have a vintage Gerber HS-15 that is sprocket feed and only 15". We use high tack Anchor blast mask and have very little problems. It is a pain when you can only cut 15" at a time but we don't waste a lot of time either on trying to get it run. Just set up my panels in GSP plot and away we go!
I ususally run the HS-15 at about 58% of normal speed when cutting mask. Tends to keep things going better. The only trouble I've had is some rolls of Anchor aren't powdered well and when the mask runs in and out it will bind on the bar. To solve this I run out what length I need through the plotter and then powder it myself and the run it back through.
Good luck and I hope you find something that works in your friction feed.
I have an Ioline friction feed and use Anchor tape with no problems...I have some #153 and it is trimmed back from the edge of the acetate backer about 1/2", and that's where I set the rollers. Don't put the rollers on the rubber.Transfering it after I cut it is sometimes a prob. I clean it real good and use high tack transfer tape and move the whole piece onto the board and then weed. It still can be tricky to get registered though, but it's probably me "cause I still act a little clumsy with vinyl at times.....I guess I just have too much 104 red in my blood...........
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I also run the material through my plotter twice. Once is not enough for me. I don’t like to have the force at it's maximum. (don't ask me why ) After the first pass my plotter return the blade to its origin. So registration for the second pass is not an issue.
Running it through twice cuts completely throught the resist. This eliminates the jaggies you get if you don't cut through...
BTW I have a Roland friction feed plotter.
Good luck, Joe
-------------------- Joe Abner Talisman Signs Middleboro, MA
"We are limited only by our perception of our abilities." Posts: 445 | From: Middleboro, Ma USA | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
I have a Roland 950 and use it to cut Anchor 125. It took me a lot of experimentation to get it to work. The only real problem is when I try to cut something that requires the plotter to make a long run to the other end and then come back. As long as it is just working its way through lettering a little at a time it works good. I've tried Hartco several times and it just will not stay on the substrate when blasting. I weed the 125 and then mask like vinyl and transfer.
posted
Hi Mark... Here's my approach. for little letters I also use the edge strip method.. On larger signs I dont use the plotter to cut resist. I make a rough layout on the board that will be blasted and I cover the area where the letters will go.Then I cut the layout in intermediate vinyl and apply it over the resist material and hand cut it. You can save a lot of resist by using this method since you only apply it where there will be letters as opposed to covering the entire board. IF you Do use the plotter to cut resist...slow it down to a crawl and dont forget to switch to a 60 degree knife. Bout time the sun came out huh???????????????
posted
We've cut ooodles of resist with a zacktoe. Many late nights and gallons of coffee.
We started using the plotter. After much trial and error, advice etc. we have it nailed down now. It was worth it.... Use the plotter.
Your cutter must have enough down-force which is about 150 to 200 grams for Anchor #153.
For an Ioline, use a 60° Cobra blade.
For pre-paints use Anchor 153 resist.
Cut the stencil off the roll, just long enough for the sign, but leave about 2'' extra.
Wipe the powder off the stencil thoroughly with damp paper towels.
Align the stencil in the plotter with the 24 lb. wheels riding on the exposed mylar.
Clean the pinch wheels with alcohol.
If you have them, use 8 lb. pinch wheels (made for drawing on paper) in the middle of the stencil and they won't mash it. I got mine from Ioline.
Set your software to panel the job. That is... cut one foot of stencil then go to the next etc. Then your plotter won't be running the stencil back and forth so much..diminishing accuracy.
I cut the graphics, letters, and borders with the plotter.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Thanks for the advise. See, what I'm doing is ... 2'x4' clear acrylic, each panel is 24 name "panels" ... meaning the lines between the name "panels" and the names are blasted, names then painted/filled ... lots and lots of names. The tracking problem isn't realy one, as I made a paper plot to put under panels on light table... not ideal but works. I'm worried more about the insides of the letters (small) blasting out ... but still have an out by painting in with thick clear. Two or three more brands (like hartco)and I think I'll have tried them all LOL. Hoping the 3m523 has some tack.
Yeah Mike, gotta love that sun. Had to sticky a 53' trailer today ... got it about 1/3 into our bay before it got stuck (because the way our drive dips a 48' is no problem but some 53's wont make it) Got "stuck" doing it outside ... and almost enjoyed it.
Just kept thinking about Terry Baird doing those gas stations in 20 degrees and a bit of breeze on a sunny day blowing my 3x6 panels around didn't seem so bad.
Thanks all for the info.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We have cut resist on a Graphtec. We had to slow the cut down to 10% of full speed, sort the data so it doesn't rip back and forth from end to end and finally have 2 people hold on the resist helping it along.
Cutting stencil is only one of the many reasons we avoid blasting and rout everything.
Wouldn't your parts be better suited for routing or engraving?
By the way we'll be out your way Saturday afternoon delivering a few cases of screen printed shirts to RIT.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Hey Mark, Give Hartco a call at 800-543-1340 for a free sample. Our PVC SandMask resist doesn't bunch-up the way rubber will in a friction feed plotter. We don't need to use powder on our mask, so you won't have the mess.
The only thing that we ask of you is that you give us feedback on our sample!
Anyone else who would be interested in trying our resist feel free to let me know!
I used Hartco on my Gerber machines a few years back then had trouble getting it over here.
I bought Anchor for my Summa T series plotter, but never had success with it always going off, that was running on the mylar edge etc tried tape tried cleaning all the powder off etc.
Anyway recently we have found a distributor over in Europe for Hartco, and life has become a breeze, it cuts the best in my opinion, and blasting in really cold Scandinavian weather, anchor used to come off during blasting. The Hartco stays put. We use the S425 and have it in 3 widths here.
Great to weed too...I have also tried Gerber and a couple of other Euro types..we are goiung to stick with Hartco though.
posted
I have a graphtec FC2100-60A. I have to cut my stencil as slow as it will go and babysit it. One thing that seemed to help was switching from a 45 degree blade to a 60 degree. less drag. as far as the little pieces blasting out, I've found that if I staple them to the substrate good before blasting they'll stay put. makes a little hole and usually a little filler will take care of that. hope this helps.
-------------------- Norris Sign Works 102 Doogle Lane Shallotte, N.C. 28470 Posts: 117 | From: Shallotte, N.C. USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
To do Glass mirrors etc we use avery 500 economy fascal and turn the peressure down on the blaster using fine carborundum blasting sandworks a treat and no problems cutting it
-------------------- Ian Wilson Signmaker Retired 3 Panorama Drive Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your troubles be little ones. The man that never make a mistake never makes anything. Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey, all... I've been away for a week or so, but will give as complete a discussion as I can over the weekend. There ia a right way to cut stencil on a friction plotter. If you have a Graphtec, you'll be particularly interested. Howard
-------------------- Howard Keiper Independent Contractor Benicia, Ca. thekeip@comcast.net
posted
Mark... Cutting sandblast mask is one of the things the Graphtec machines excell at. The 4100 and 5100 series machines particularly, have some features that make them unique. But there are a number of things to look into for a really good job. Friction machines use pinch rollers to grasp and move the material through the machine. If you're using Anchor or 3M material (the rubber stuff) the rollers will make silly putty out of the material in short order. Sometimes it helps if you can avoid having the material shuffle back and forth so many times. You can use stencil material with the stripped edges and put your pinch rollers on the mylar or whatever it is. This works if your plotter tracks well. I use Hartco if tracking is going to be a problem. It's hard (good for tracking), but hard to cut because it is both hard and thick. It's both blessing and curse...if your plotter IS able to cut it well, the results are sensational. The 5100 can (although in a practical sense, it's useless) routinely cut 1/2" Times or University with absolutely perfect serifs, in 35 mil stencil. Since the circumference of the drum or grit wheel that moves the material depends on the radius of the drum, you should expect a scaling difference in your cut if you go fron a 2 mil vinyl to a 35-40 mil stencil. If you were to cut a 6" letter with an outline, you might not see anything wrong with your cut; but if you did a string of 6" letters and tried to put an outline (weed border?) around the whole thing, you might be unpleasantly surprised at the result....might even think your plotter was "slipping"...well, it probably isn't. If the error is almost exclusively in the X direction, that's your problem. Yes, the Graphtecs can correct that. You absolutely MUST use a sharp 30* blade for mask thicker than about 10 mils. You will never be able to cut stencil mask on a plotter really well if you don't have a "tangential" mode. Tangential provides a means to insure that vectors that are supposed to intersect really do, and that acute angles can be negotiated without butchering the corners. Tangential may be the most essential feature you should consider if you intend to do professional work cutting most any very thick material. The 4100 & 5100 cutters don't measure the distance from the cutting platten to the bottom of the blade like most cutters do. They determine exactly where the surface of the material is and determine the correct blade extension predicated on the thickness of the material, not where you think the bottom of it might be. If you're going to cut thick material, especially if it has a sissy saran wrap adhesive protector instead of liner, you should consider that. Practically, it means that the machines can cut multiple passes any number of times until the depth is just perfect. You can't ruin a sandblast cut unless you work at it.
If any of the members are 4100 - 5100 owners and would like to have a step by step walk through, please call me. I'm generally by the phone about 0500 every day.
Howard 707 746 7172 280 6360 cell
-------------------- Howard Keiper Independent Contractor Benicia, Ca. thekeip@comcast.net
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) After the first pass my plotter return the blade to its origin. So registration for the second pass is not an issue. 
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