posted
How many of you out there have a PC-60 and how many of you have had to replace the print head? Iam about to replace number 3 on mine. at $1000.00 cdn. I feel it's time that Roland admits they have a serious problem and compensates us for these print heads. If anyone is having the same problem email me at qsigns@ebtech.net I am going to submit all these to Roland and see if we can get some answers on this problem. Thanx Rick Lovell
posted
I have one but I have rarely used it from the time I bought it because the print quality is so poor. I did send it back once for service while it was under warranty but it still never worked well. It sits here as a reminder about how crappy a printer it really is. One of the worst investment decisions I have ever made.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
You'll find at least one ally here...looks as though this fellow is trying to find others who might want to take part in a class action.
Roland's thermal transfer printers are priced very attractively -- but (as you are finding) typically have an awfully high cost of ownership. Roland DGA is also a huge corporation, with (probably) very deep pockets and a whole host of lawyers ready to fight to the bitter end.
If you don't get satisfaction quickly (and if you don't mind the suggestion) you might want to quit spending (sorry) good money after bad...and talk to us about a Gerber EDGE.
Please don't mistake my comments for gloating!!
I hate to hear stories like yours, because they serve as a reminder of our own shortcomings as an organization...whther it was a failure to make the alternatives known to you and/or to clearly demonstrate the value in spending the extra money on our equipment.
Good luck.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I bought a refurbished Roland Color-CAMM a few years ago quite inexpensively (or, so I thought). I have never EVER been able to print something that I felt I could charge money for. It went back to Roland for a new print head under warranty and still did not print with any semblance of quality. Again, it went back to Roland and they replaced it with a PC-50.
After a few attempts to actually print something salable, the print head gave up. Roland again replaced it for free but their tech support person told me I had worn the head out from extensive use. I told him it had hardly been used at all. He said there is a chip that totals the head movement and mentioned an absurdly high figure (literally miles of print travel). I calculated to get that much print movement out of the head, I would have spent about $100,000 on consumables. I'm still working on the batch I got with the printer. I would have certainly noticed 100 Gees worth of ribbons going through here. If I was going to use anything of that type of volume, I definitely would have bought an Edge II. I bought the Roland for the occasional small detailed decal I did not want to produce in other fashions.
I know some on this board have had good success with this device and the PC-60 and actually make money with it, however, they are definitely in the minority.
I only use the Roland as a second emergency plotter (it does cut small letters better and faster than my Gerber IV-A with Unilink).
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Check this out. Might want to get into contact with this fellow and see what sort of response he is getting...maybe duplicate his efforts if it makes sense.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I had to replace my print head too. It was only used about 7 or 8 times for short runs and I kept it covered the rest of the time. It cost me 500.00. It's a piece of junk. The print quality was always bad and it makes a lot of noise. Thankfully I was able to sell mine. If you look around you'll find that most everyone who has one is trying to get rid of it. Roland you goofed with this one. admit it. It made a nice work table to hang loose vinyl over. that's about it.
-------------------- Norris Sign Works 102 Doogle Lane Shallotte, N.C. 28470 Posts: 117 | From: Shallotte, N.C. USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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You guys apparently have never used a ColorCAMM PNC-5000.
I bought mine refurbished at a pretty reasonable price for a printer/cutter, and if it hadn't paid for itsself in a week of just cutting vinyl, I'd still be upset that I never was able to print anything decent on it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Most "thermalheads" are pretty much the same, given a few minor differences.
Here's the problem....
The printhead on a ColorCamm is about 0.4" wide. This means that in order to print a 12"x12" square one color, the printhead has to travel roughly about 384 linear inches.
Compare that to the Edge which only has to travel 12 linear inches to do the same. Or, the Summa DC-3 and Gerber Maxx-2 which have 4" wide printheads and have to travel 36 linear inches to print a 12" square.
The ColorCamm printhead has to do a great deal more work to do the same job as the other machines. This means that the printheads are going to wear out much more often.
While the initial price of a ColorCamm is attractive, the costs of consumables and maintenance is what gets most people. And, by then its too late.
Don't get me wrong. There are those out there who swear by their ColorCamms. But, I do think people need to do a better job of investigating before making a purchase. The way to do that is to "know what questions to ask" (which isn't always so easy).
posted
I have had to replaced the head on my PC60 4 times so far and the Roland the new cutters are not much better. I had an old PNC1800 had no trouble but the new ones are nothing but trouble will be going to Graphtec or Summa next if I can find an agent for Summa that wants the business so far no luck
-------------------- Ian Wilson Signmaker Retired 3 Panorama Drive Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your troubles be little ones. The man that never make a mistake never makes anything. Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Iagree with you Glen, before you buy any machine you must do the research. In other words know everything possible about the machine before you invest! These days with message boards andthe internet you should be able to get most of your questions answered. Dont let the salespeople talk you into anything until you have all infomation
-------------------- Greg Baker Sign City 14 Milton Circuit Port Macquarie NSW 2444 signcity1@bigpond.com Posts: 48 | From: australia | Registered: Oct 2002
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In australia the gerber edge is $78,000.00 compared to $11,000.00 for the roland which should have been ok for the small stickers we needed except for the heads we could not justify the Gerber
-------------------- Ian Wilson Signmaker Retired 3 Panorama Drive Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your troubles be little ones. The man that never make a mistake never makes anything. Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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No-one I have ever met who has owned both machines - Roland and Gerber - ever swears by Roland. I know that might sound smug, but it is fact.
Ian:
I wouldn't buy an EDGE for $80,000 either...
In Canada, you can buy an EDGE 'LE', GS-15 Plotter and OMEGA Software for the equivalent of about AUD$36K...or an EDGE 'LE' on its own for about AUD$24K. Granted, their might be some extra freight...but AUD$80K ?!?!! Something very strange going on down-under!!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Hey Jon, let me tell you, something strange has always gone on with Gerber in Australia. I bought a 4A in 1985 and was told that if I ran anything except 3M through the machine then my warranty would be void. Gerber were also in bed with Letraset who distributed the machinery. Letraset had the most ridiculous maintenance agreement which was very wobbly. I paid up year after year ($1,000 in 1985 was big bux) and found out later that when a competitors machine broke down he was able to pay the MA and get it fixed for that cost. Only when competition came did they start to get real and now they have only a very small part of the market and Gerber is not part of Letraset or Esselte. They are distributed through Spandex, a well respected company.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Jon it would of been cheaper for me to fly to canada and buy the machine, then fly back. I would of had enough money left over to have a holiday there! This was one of the reasons that I went to solvent printing instead of the Edge way, and Ive got to admit I think I ended up making the right decision. Its all about greed and the distributor here got a little greedy.Its ashame because from what I saw it is a great machine for what it does.
-------------------- Greg Baker Sign City 14 Milton Circuit Port Macquarie NSW 2444 signcity1@bigpond.com Posts: 48 | From: australia | Registered: Oct 2002
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All of the various digital printing technologies have their place...all have their strengths and weaknesses...and none are the "be all and end all".
Going with a solvent inkjet probably was a good decision for your business (you would certainly know better than I)...but you will find that it isn't the best solution for all of your work. The Gerber EDGE wouldn't be either.
We try to encourage our clients to look beyond today's equipment purchase.
The ideal "digital plan" for most commercial signshops probably includes a thermal transfer printer (such as the Gerber EDGE), some form of "indoor" wide-format inkjet and some form of wide format printer for producing durable outdoor images (whether that is a solvent inkjet or another solution).
The "trick" in planning a series of equipment purchases that will allow you to offer your clients a full range of imaging solutions is to choose to invest in systems that offer the fastest return on investment.
This approach can give you the momentum to "leapfrog" the competition and quickly establish yourself as the leading provider of imaging solutions in your market. It gives you more products to sell existing clients and makes your service proposition all-the-more attractive to prospective clients...
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote: The "trick" in planning a series of equipment purchases that will allow you to offer your clients a full range of imaging solutions is to choose to invest in systems that offer the fastest return on investment.
All I can do is to go by my own experiences! I've not been TOTALLY without problems....nothing's perfect....what what few glitches I've had were taken care of immediately by ROLAND..........what can I say.......!
...or maybe Roland DGA should put you on the board of directors and pay you a big fat salary!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Jon I agree with you that would be a perfect setup for a sign shop, but unfortunately unaffordable for me because of the huge pricing on some of that equipment.
Bob I agree with you, Roland have been very helpful with me when we went into the digital market, and still are every day. We started off with the pc60 and in time found that it wasnt the machine for us, so we moved to the Soljet, which is when Roland stepped in and bought the pc60 off us for the amount we owed on it, then travelled 8 hrs to come and set it up and train us for 2 days. Now thats what I call service!
-------------------- Greg Baker Sign City 14 Milton Circuit Port Macquarie NSW 2444 signcity1@bigpond.com Posts: 48 | From: australia | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
I believe that if you have a PC60 and haven't had loads of problems, and haven't gone through numerous print heads, then you haven't been doing much printing at all, thus probably haven't made much money with it.
I think the machine should be classified as a vinyl printer for the hobbiest who has money to blow.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Look at the stuff Dan Antonelli turns out....and I KNOW he's making money with his PC600!......I dont have Dan's talent, but I know I'M making money with the PC60! If I wasn't, I wouldn't have one.....I think THAT would be an obvious conclusion. I'm a businessman FIRST, and an R-TEEST 2nd! As much as I love this work, if I couldn't make a living at it, I wouldn't be here!Some of us ColorCAMM users are very happy with their machines.....even tho JON would mildly disagree, we can't ALL be STUPID!
[ March 20, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
posted
I have had my PC-60 for over 5 years and the only trouble it a gave me was to break 1 ribbon. I had the foam roller that goes against the foil while printing replaced and it prints as good as new. Once you figure out how to create files it likes the print quality is quite good. The 600 dpi is noticably better on small text than the Edge's 300. On the down side, consumables cost much more than the Edge and outdoor durability without lamination is questionable at best. I still print some small jobs that I don't feel like adjusting for print on the Edge. I believe it's possible that many consider it "junk" because it was their 1st venture into the world of digital printing. While I was learning to use it I called it junk and a few other things I can't mention here. I was drawn to the Edge for it's abillity to do vehicle graphics at sizes and quantities that are not practical with the Roland. Add to that the range of substrates and the choice is easy. Th PC-60 is a GOOD machine. The Edge is just a LOT better.
-------------------- Dan Vanderknaap Atlantic Autographics Scoudouc NB Posts: 43 | From: Moncton,New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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My comments about you deserving something from Roland were made because you are a great spokesman for the Roland ColorCAMM.
I don't recall suggesting or somehow implying (ever) that you or anyone else who is happy with a ColorCAMM is "stupid"...but you do seem to be in a minority.
I'm glad you are happy with yours and believe you when you say that you make money with it.
My perspective boils down to this: odds are that you would be happier with and making more money with a Gerber EDGE. The facts support me in this...but until you actually own/operate a Gerber EDGE, I guess we'll never know.
Have a good day.
[ March 21, 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
For some reason, everytime this subject matter comes up. Nobody ever listens to the people who own both of these machines.
Once you have an Edge, you will shoot yourself for every having wasted the time with the PC60. It is hands down a waste of equipment that you will never use again once you've got an edge.
Anyone want to buy a PC60 with a little dust on it?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'm with Bob and will take a punch or two also. I've been using the ColorCAMMs since the PNC5000 and all of them have worked flawlessly. My machines have taken a beating and have not shown a bruise. I have regularly printed 400 yards of 24" material in a 6 month period and have had nothing but satisfied customers and a satisfied user. Anyone that says they're not making money with the the PC60 or PC600 (I have both) obviously doesn't have one or has not spent the time to learn the machine. You can't blame Roland for a dealer that hasn't given training or the person who bought the machine mail order and wants to blame their local dealer for not supporting them. If you try to save a few bucks by buying mail order expect to spend a few bucks trying to learn on your own. COME ON! These machines are not "Rocket Science",I brought the PNC5000 home and had it producing money making graphics in a couple of hours with NO traning whatsoever. Maybe if people spent as much time working with their machine as they spent whining about it, they might be able to make that money they say is eluding them! If you do have questions, try taking a Roland University either at Roland DGA in Irvine or at one of the many sign shows across the nation. These will answer any of the questions you have about maintenance, cleaning and materials and will give some ideas about what can be produced with the PC600, PC60, PC12 and even the PNC5000. With all the ColorCAMMS out in the world there obviously happy owners making money and trying new ideas for their machines. The only people not making a living with these machines are the ones who haven't figured out where the POWER switch is.
-------------------- Jim Conquest Imagine It Graphics Huntington Beach, CA 92647 Posts: 1 | From: Southern California | Registered: Mar 2003
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My PC-60 works very good after 5 or 6 years now. I don't print everything I do on it, but once you know its limits, it works fine. I need a tiny adjustment to the head a couple of years ago, and guess what, it got a new head. I'm looking at the new DC-3 now, but can't find anyone who owns one yet.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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quote: The only people not making a living with these machines are the ones who haven't figured out where the POWER switch is
Actually, as the majority of the replies here show most of us not making money with the Roland machines found the real money making POWER is in switching to the EDGE!
If you don't mind the suggestion, give your local Gerber dealer a call and get in to see & talk about the Gerber MAXX2, as well. Yes the MAXX2 plus a compatible plotter is more money...but it is a more versatile, more productive system...better ROI potential.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Since we're STILL doing the apples and oranges thing, let's not overlook the 3M 2500UV printer. It'll do media 98" wide and 3" thick!!! Costs a little more, but you'll make up the costs in volume!!!
I don't understand your comments...John said he was looking at a DC-3. I fail to see how suggesting he should also investigate a Gerber MAXX2 is such a big leap. They're both 36" thermal transfer printers, after all.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The ROLAND website FORUM has lots of happy ColorCAMM users exchanging tips, tricks, and new ideas to make even more money. You just dont see them all on this BB doing the apples and oranges "two-step". My guess is that most users would rather spend their time more productively than to get into the p***ing contest we get here every now and then. Evidently, we hard-heads are slow learners.
[ March 22, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
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