posted
well I expected some learning curve, so I wasn't too surprised when my test piece didn't come out as expected, but I am a little dissapointed because everything seemed to be going well untill just about the last step.
I am using Wehrung & Billmeier Co. "XX DEEP" 23K patent gold leaf & ROLCO quick dry synthetic gold size varnish
I was attempting to put the leaf on a black vinyl shadow/outline. That may be sacrilege for you traditionalists out there, but can it be done?
I used a vinyl mask to brush on the size. I removed the mask after about an hour. Another hour later, the size seemed to be at the almost still slightly tacky stage I was aiming for so I laid down the leaf.
What is hard to tell from this pic, is that the darker outline areas have gold on them still. The size stayed put where the letter centers are, & the outline area was just h/p vinyl mounted on an edge print. When I attempted to burnish the gold & remove the excess it would not come off the black vinyl. It didn't want to come off the edge print too easily, but the black outline area is almost all covered in gold still. Since this was my first time doing this I kept working it harder with my cotton untill I rubbed the gold right off the size in areas.
So this test piece is pretty much trashed now, but it was still an enjoyable start on a new skill. I just don't know what to try next. I may try laying it on a painted one-shot base, but if the vinyl is not to blame, any ideas what is?
[ March 18, 2003, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Hi Dough, It's a learning curve, what you must remember is that goldleaf will stick to almost any surface and it cannot be expected to only stick to where you have painted the gold size. The answer is to re-do the job but first wash the total area with egg white and water or wipe the area with a potato, The starch in the potato will dry onto the sign face so that when you gild the work the excess gold will stick to the dried starch and not the sign face. When the job is finished you can gently whipe away the excess gold with some wet cotton wool. KEEP TRYING, gilding is a fantastic art .
Brian.
-------------------- Brian the Brush brian the brush uk Yorkshire, UK www.brianthebrushuk.com Posts: 123 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Doug, I think that vinyl has a natural tack that you can't really get away from. I notice that your gild area is very small (by the edge dot pattern I see), so I feel the potato trick is going to be a little fragile to try to get in those small areas. Perhaps masking the outer boundries (the edge print) For the outer mask, leave the weedable remains of the vinyl cut, and remove when completely done. I would scuff the black vinyl, add size carefully with a liner brush to areas that you want to gild, (very thinnly (which you can't do up against a mask) and using a black oneshot to paint back over the black vinyl where gold has embedded might work. I sometimes gild with a mask, but in that small of area, the edges are just not going to be premo enough. I just don't think they will lay down like the need to. Just my O. Jack
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Traditionally the process of surface gilding is done in sequence for just this reason,....prep your surface,...size,...gild,...then outline.The only alternative not mentioned here would be to dust the area with kaolin prior to sizing,but seeing as you are using paintmask for the size this would be self defeating.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Doug; You should have left the "mask" on after you applied the size. Now you have to get your #3 quill out and paint black over the outlin/shadow of the unwanted gold.
J.G. Kurtzman
-------------------- John Kurtzman J.G. Kurtzman Sign Shop 97 Taylor Ave. Norwalk, Ct. 06854
----------------------------------- Creative communication since 1959 Posts: 213 | From: So. Norwalk, Ct. USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I don't know I'd call it sacrilidge, but it's definately doing it the hard way You might want to try cutting the mask for the letters and outline ( slightly smaller than the actual vinyl outline ), pull both the outline and letters, leave the mask in place, size, gild, remove the mask, clear the entire panel with about three coats of a good clear. Place the outline ( done in a cookie cutter fashion ) over the letters, using a low tack transfer, wet with Rapid Tac and remove S L O W L Y and hope like hell it doesn't pull the gold up with it, reclear. No guarantees but it might work.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Hi Doug...traditional is still the easier way to apply the surface gild...My take on applying the gold to the vinyl and wanting to use a vinyl outline drop shad...would be to pounce on the lettering you are going to size or in your case use the paint mask method but make the mask just slightly larger than the finished letter...trace this in and remove the mask...then use Kaolin powder to rubbed over the rest of your edge print...now size (thinly applied)inside your traced area( if you happen to go over you line slightly don't worry about it as you outline will take care of that...once size is ready (very sqeeky when rubbing the back of your knockle over it)gild...Burnish...the kaolin powder will keep the gold from sticking to your edge print...and if some gold should happen to stick...use spit on a Q-tip and in most cased that will remove the unwanted gold....Now paint in your outline drop shadow or in your case cut your black wvinyl outline and drop shadow with the letter part removed leaving only the outline and shadow...register it over your gilded letter and apply...if you cut this so the eposed letter is the right size and having made you god letter slightly bigger should help you get things lined up with a little room to play...Then clear if you like but gold looks better uncleared...Oh don't forget to wipe the Kaolin power off before applying the black vinyl outline or it won't stick...Ok hope this helps ...Pat
-------------------- Pat Welter Masterhand Signs and Designs Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada Posts: 1304 | From: Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada | Registered: May 1999
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posted
well, after about 6 hours sleep (& at least 5 hours dreaming about gilding)I'm back to persuing my new addiction.
I knew an old potato factored in somewhere because EmpY showed me that last December, but I forgot when & why. Do I size right over the starch, or do I need to avoid getting starch on the area to be sized?
I'm thinking of meeting the challenge of putting down my outline with a brush after gilding, but just to get the theory behind all these suggestions, Jack do you suggest scuffing any vinyl that will be sized because I may not get good adhesion otherwise? Also, as for sizing with a mask, I did lay it on a little thick in fear that it wouldn't work well otherwise. There is a definite ridge at the edges as shown in pic by the highlights there. I thought that gave it a nice effect. What are the drawbacks to that ridge?
I'm not sure I'm ready to attempt sizing to a pounce pattern instead of a mask on these letters, but when I do, is the kaolin an alternative to egg white or potato starch?
If I go with painting my outlines, should I still follow George's suggestion of gilding an area somwhat larger then what is to be showing, then overlap the gild with my one shot instead of vinyl? Should I still clear between gild & painted outlines, or is that idea just if I want to stay with the vinyl outline idea?
Gold leaf is so simple and yet so complex at the same time.
My own gold leaf project went sideways yesterday about three times. In the end it was exactly what I wanted but totally different than I expected
Gold is all about experimentation and discovery.
That's probably why Rick loved it so much.
Keep havin fun!
-dan
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Oops, Doug what I meant to say was cut both the letter and the undersized outline. Pull the letter, size, then pull the outline, when ready gild. The mask will keep the stray gild out of harms way. Any excess outside the letter will get covered by the outline.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Got it George! I think thats what Jack may have been saying, but after 3 times now it is crystal clear & sounds like the plan.
Dan, thanks for the idea of making yesterday a honorary Gold day. I had put off that fun for too long not really admitting any apprehension, but just stalling. I thought of Rick often yesterday, though he was just a name that I knew was well respected before last week, his ledgendary role as a letterhead & a gentleman has taken root this week. I don't think I will look at gilding without Rick's spirit adding a little extra lustre to the whole process.
posted
Hmmm, I question the idea of putting gold leaf on vinyl. Why not just leaf directly on the surface as long as you're cutting a mask anyway? What happens if the vinyl shrinks or gets weird over time?
Also, do a test first of the potato/egg trick. Fifteen years ago I tried this on a carved wood sign (can't remember which it was, potato or egg) and it absorbed into the dark green One Shot we used to paint the background. The sign had all these streaky swirls where we tried to wash it off. Customer didn't like our explanation of, "Well if you stand sideways from the sunlight you don't see it...."
I had an employee explain to me one time that all quality issues were really light related problems. He said: "If you take all the light away, the problem goes away." How can you fight reasoning like that? I don't think, however, that would be too convincing to the customer who is paying the bill.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Doug, I just shipped 3 sets of Fire Truck Graphics Hand gilded on vinyl to which a black outline was edge printed first. I don't have any tricks for cleaning up, but very little gold sticks to the edge print area, and none to the background. I hand touch-up the areas where the gold sticks to the edge print. Feel free to call if you want more info. 763-753-4633 (Central Standard Time)
Here is one trick for removing unwanted gold. A q-tip and a little lighter fluid. You will not believe how easily it will remove even the most stubborn gold. I will admit, though, never having tried this trick on vinyl. Lighter fluid is naptha, so that should work too, but because of superstition or whatever I always use a can of lighter fluid. I'd just try a little on some vinyl first to see if it dulls it or anything, but I doubt it will.
In answer to some other questions....Yes, paint right over your layer of starch. And as far as the ridges along the edge, where the mask was, they may look good now, but if you ever engine turned those letters, that edge build-up would drag size into the letters and cause circular streaks, because the paint is built up and still soft along those edges. One of the most important things about sizing is to get it on evenly, and you can't do that with a mask. OK, let me rephrase that: I can't .I guess the paintmask method is OK if you don't spin it, but you still need to be careful when burnishing that you don't pick up some paint from the edges.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doug on your raise edge size issue...it may look ok right now but as the size drys in behind the gole it will shrink leaving the edge looking wrinkled...so best is thin thin thin...
-------------------- Pat Welter Masterhand Signs and Designs Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada Posts: 1304 | From: Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada | Registered: May 1999
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posted
raised edges on the size can be defeated by removing the mask right away after applying the size..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Thanks for all the replies. I am sur I will be referring back to this thread soon. I've got a much better idea of how to proceed with my 2nd & 3rd lessons. I am just popping back in for a look here before leaving again to finish an installation I have been doing away from the shop all afternoon, but I had to drop everything & try the paint thinner idea. It worked fairly well. I had rubbed so much with the cotton yesterday that I did damage the gold in a lot of areas, but the thinner did clean things up enough that I will still be able to enjoy looking at this first attempt, instead of trashing it like it looked like I would have to do before the thinner.
posted
Hey Doug, I learned this trick from Rick. He told me to take "Splash" it's a water based vinyl application fluid (in its concentrated form) on cotton and wipe the excess away. I have used it to remove strays from glass and painted surfaces without very little effort and no damage to painted surfaces. It won't leave a greasy film either. If you don't use "splash" try another brand of application fluid. OH yes, thinner size is better. good luck!
-------------------- Chuck Reed CR Signs 10442 Cook Circle Huntington Beach, Ca. 92646 714.962.7805 CRSigns2@aol.com Posts: 14 | From: 10442 Cook Circle Huntington Beach, Ca. 92646 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
This does not have to be so hard. I have been gilding since my first Letterheads meet in 1982, and doing it on vinyl for more than 10 years, primarily for the Fire Truck market. Contrary to some of the comments here, they hold up GREAT, much better than the varnish coated gold leaf work done directly on the rigs.
1. I print the design on clear vinyl on the edge, without pretreating the vinyl with anything other than a damp rag if absolutely necessary.
2. Hand gild in the normal way (brush on without mask) The comments about the mask leaving a buildup that would drag size into the gold while burnishing is 100% correct, even if you pull the mask right away (although that helps a little). I prefer a mixture of 1/3 Chrome yellow lettering enamel in 2/3 Slow size. I HATE quick size. The mixture I use gives me a 12 hour size with another 5 or 6 hours open time.
3. After laying gold, gently pick up loose gold with soft nylon or polyester material, such as a ladies slip or nightgown is made from. Also at that time lightly burnish the gold to "blend" seams. Patch any holidays. Don't worry about excess gold outside of the design at this time.
4. Decorative burnish such as stripe, engine turn, plaid, or whatever.
5. Topcoat with Chromatic clear overcoat varnish or quick rubbing varnish. QR is faster dry but not as tough.
6. Clean excess gold from areas outside of letters. Use VERY WET cake Bon Ami on a paper towel, being gentle, let the wet Bon Ami do the work. Gently wipe away the Bon Ami residue with damp paper towel, and dry. Qtip is good for small spots if you want to avoid scrubbing the whole graphic.
7. Touch up (with lettering enamel, or DEKA if you're in a hurry) any areas of the outline or shadow where the gold exceeds it's planned area. This includes straightening the bottoms and corners, and generally cleaning up the letter style.
8. Add any glazes or embellishments to the gilded areas. (more brush work)
8. Top coat with a layer of clear Tedlar. I have also used another layer of clear vinyl before I found Tedlar.
9. If you want and you have left enough leader on the piece, you can now insert into plotter and cut out the graphic. I usually just hand cut, leaving a 1/10 inch (approx.) 'glowline' of clear vinyl.
10. Mask and apply to substrate.
Check out my web site if you want to see a few examples. (Very few - have not updated site in a long time.)
Call me if you want further discussion. 763-753-4633
posted
OK Barb, I might take you up on that offer to telephone if needed, but it sounds like you don't bother with the egg white or potato? When you say "don't worry about the large excess gold, but then you move on to clear the job, can I assume you are following the pattern again & carefully clearing only the letter shapes, & not the excess gold that has yet to be removed?
posted
There is no pattern involved. The EDGE PRINT is the 'pattern'. When I size the job i do a reasonably careful lettering job, and only a little excess gold sticks. Then I can easily follow the design for touch up. I use Avery clear vinyl and Z9 foil, but have also used 3m both. DO NOT prep vinyl other than dusting, if you can avoid it. PREPPED vinyl is more likely to have gold stick in unwanted places.
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You might want to try cutting the mask for the letters and outline ( slightly smaller than the actual vinyl outline ), pull both the outline and letters, leave the mask in place, size, gild, remove the mask, clear the entire panel with about three coats of a good clear. Place the outline ( done in a cookie cutter fashion ) over the letters, using a low tack transfer, wet with Rapid Tac and remove S L O W L Y and hope like hell it doesn't pull the gold up with it, reclear. No guarantees but it might work.
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