posted
I have an account that has been past due for a year and a half. I've sent letters. Done the phone tag thing. Finally today I got ahold of the manager of the Vocal Hall of Fame museum. He tries to tell me he is not responsible for the bill since it was owned by an individual and now it is owned by several recording artists. He tries to bribe me with tickets to upcoming events. I told him I need the money not tickets. He tells me there is nothing he can do. So I told him I will be down to remove the lettering and an aluminum panel I made for the podium. He said to "Have Fun trying to do so".
Hence my question. Am I obligated to go down to remove the lettering? I've never been paid, so technically its still mine right? I'm waiting on getting a phone call from my lawyer, but I just wondered if anyone could offer me any insight. I will send a registered letter before I do the removal as a last ditch effort for them to pay.
Thanks for any replies or insight.
Ryan
-------------------- Ryan Ursta Ursta Graphics 116 B North Mercer Avenue Sharpsville Pa. 16150 Call: 724•962•2206 "We make YOU look good"
Known as "Ugraph" on mirc Posts: 558 | From: Sharpsville Pa. USA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
here in Georgia once it is attached to the building it becomes part of the building and you can't remove it without permission of the owner.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah I think it is illegal to remove attached signs.
But.....I have done it. I have taken signs off the inside walls, removed foam letters (got paid what I was owed while doing so)....and taken A-Boards from people who have not paid. Luckily this does not happen often.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
You're better off to sue in small claims court and get a judgment. Then record it. They will probably settle up at that point but if they don't they'll never be able to sell any real estate without settling up. It will also prevent most lenders from dealing with them as well.
You're also entitled to reasonable attorney fees, court costs, interest and late fees.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good answers. I have a few judgments out in my favor, and never collected on any of them. (My deadbeats must not have not done Real Estate deals).
I think going and undoing the work is risky in a number of ways, and I don't think you'll feel better afterwards.
I have read about this and am waiting for the right time to do it:
Tell them you will report them to the IRS. That the money owed is income you did not receive, but that in turn they received it by not paying you. That you hope they reported this income. And then give them a deadline for the day you call the IRS. Ask your lawyer, but if I got a threat like that, I would not like it.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
How come they can repossess your car, foreclose on your house. disconnect your phone and turn off your electricity or jail you for not paying your taxes etc. but YOU can't repossess a measly sign?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for the replies! I guess i'm not alone on this one. I have yet to hear from my atty. (go figure) I think I am going to go the small claims route, so far. I'd really like to just go down and rip just half the graphic off and reclaim my panel. Ughhh what a mess.
-------------------- Ryan Ursta Ursta Graphics 116 B North Mercer Avenue Sharpsville Pa. 16150 Call: 724•962•2206 "We make YOU look good"
Known as "Ugraph" on mirc Posts: 558 | From: Sharpsville Pa. USA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
In Michigan it is also illegal to remove a sign for nonpayment.
I put a line in my contract "fine print" that says "all work remains the property of Casey Sign Co. until paid in full". I don't know if that legally entitles me to go get the sign if they don't pay, but I can point to it and threaten.
-------------------- Mark Casey Casey Sign Co., Inc. Berkley, MI Posts: 76 | From: Berkley, MI, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
How long would it take to remove the graphic?? Each second, there is a risk of getting caught (even though we all know it's yours, it's on his property now).
Now, how long would it take to TAG IT with a can of spray paint???
Hmmmmmmm, interesting concept. Of course, I would never think of getting back at a customer like that.
Hmmmmmmmm, how long does it take to throw a brick through his store front window???????
These are questions not suggestions - good luck in your venture for $$$$$$$$.
posted
I realize that you are the good guy in this situation. And I realize that they owe you money.
But at the same time it looks like they have little intention of paying you. With the company having changed hands and all it gets really wierd.
I would take the managers offer of tickets. As many as you can get your hands on. If it would bother you to be there give them to your friends and clients.
Then move on.
A year and a half sweating over losers is far too long. And throwing money to lawers to keep the gig going is a waste of even more money, effort, and energy.
Don't sweat the small stuff.
Learn from your past and look to the future.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember my first time getting burned as a naive young kid. Woman owned a restaurant, more bar than restaurant, and I designed a free standing double face 4'x8' sign and installed it.
She had more excuses why she couldnt pay me that day than Carter had liver pills. Finally my wife told me that I was being the dumb guy and being played by her with all her nice and sweet carrying on.
I finally had enough and told her I was going to remove the sign and boy did her real colors show. She turned angry and said that no I couldnt take her sign and she would call the cops on me if I tried.
Well I talked to a cop buddy of mine and he said not to worry. Seems she had a law suit against the police department and she could have been getting raped and murdered and they wouldnt lift a finger to help her.
So knowing this I called her and gave her one last chance to pay up. I told her that I would be there 8:00am the next morning for the "cash" or the sign.
Next morning I was there at 7:00am sharp with a helper. Dug the sign out and strapped it to the roof of my station wagon. At 8:00 I knocked on her front door and she answered it in her bathrobe and a little grumpy from being waken so early on a Saturday morning. I said do you have the cash and she went on about getting it later in the day. I stepped back and said, the sign is going with me now. Good bye! She screamed some choice profanities at me and threatened to call the cops. I said, be my guest and told her that I would wait fifteen minutes for them to show up.
Needless to say they never did. I took that sign home and got out the chainsaw, cut it up into tiny pieces and then went inside the house and watched it burn in the fireplace.
For some sick reason I got a warm toasty feeling from doing that. In this case revenge was worth it and it taught me a valuable lesson. I have only been burned four or five times in 30 years. Some of them still are pretty slick though. Lets be careful out there.
[ March 06, 2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
ryan you aint that far from YOUNGSTOWN OHIO. iam from the pittsburg area.....and we would tell people that give us problems...."ill make an 80 cent phone call to "da bozs" in youngstown, and let them pay you a vist." but i see your not italian....hehehehehehe
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Reminds me of the time I repoed some truck lettering. The plant I worked at had this guy who handled the trucking. He wanted some DOT & the company name who he was leased to. I made the decals (he installed) and he came to my office to get them. He said he would be by later that day to pay me. Of course he never did and a few days went by I see him in my bosses office and he tells me he screwed up one of the DOT numbers when installing and for me to cut him abother one and then he would pay me.
Neddless to say that ****ed me off. So for lunch I casually walked to where he parked his truck and repoed the decals! I don't care what the law says, it's mine till he pays for it! Like someone here said, they can repo everything else, why can't we do it!
I would go to the that hall, say when they are rehearsing (or when the doors are at least open and no building owners present) and repo!
They aren't worried about paying you. But the "try to repo it from me" attitude sucks.
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
A couple of decades ago, a customer had me deal with his secretary on a sign. She ordered it, we pulled the permit and then he tried to cancel the order. I billed for the permit. He refused to pay, saying his secretary wasn’t “authorized” to order the sign. I replied that my foreman wasn’t “authorized” to put a brick through his window, either. Therefore, if that happened, we shouldn’t have to pay. I got my check promptly.
All that being said, once the sign is installed, the wicket gets stickier. I have repossessed signs and been paid promptly. I also, about 25 years ago, got a rich deadbeat really ticked off at me over removing his sign after waiting half a year for payment. He decided no cost was too high to bury me. I finally had to settle with him on his terms (which he changed several times), in order to stop the financial drain from all his maneuvering. He had deep pockets and no scruples, a very dangerous combination.
I have a much tougher contract now than I had in the past, however, if someone does not want to pay, they can make things very difficult for you. We should all, myself included, be more diligent about not letting the customer take possession until the work is completely paid for. How many other trades allow their customer to take the product home without having paid for it first? WalMart surely did not get where they are by allowing their clientele the terms we so often grant in the sign industry.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
i'm all for what bob burns sayz..get yourself a paint gun with neon ugly colors and let it rip!!! i've only been fleeced once in 10 yrs($150)...so i stole my signs back.. they were just aluminum blanks so i used them to put my stained glass pieces on when i soldered...i'd ruin a sign b4 i'd let some f*&kn a$$hole get it for nothing! i must say i've had good luck when it comes to getting my $$...maybe folks are just afraid to mess w/ me...haha! fear, it keeps people honest.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here in Georgia, After I sue and get a judgement, I pay an additional amount (I think it's about $ 50.00) to get a FI FA. With the FI FA, you can attach anything they have and have the sheriff sell it on the courthouse steps. If it doesn't bring enough money, you can get something else. This past Tuesday, a 1990 Jeep Cheroke was sold on my behalf. I got my money in cash.
-------------------- Robert Richards Southern Ad Specialties Carrollton, GA 770-830-1501 sasga2000@a0l.com Posts: 138 | From: Carrollton, GA | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've like this expression since I heard it, because it seems so true... "they are renting space in your head" although maybe I remembered it wrong because they are not even paying rent, but anyway, I don't know how much they owe you, but I've had to learn how much my happiness is worth, & I've begun to learn that I can have that happpiness back without revenge & it is well worth far more then the relatively few times I've been stiffed for $50 here,& $150 there.
posted
Id go get the sign. Its a matter of principle, and this guy has none. When he said go ahead and try, I woulda probably went right then and jerked it off whatever it was on. Thats after smacking him really hard on the side of his head to addle him whilst I got my sign back. Bob Stephens, you and me think alike.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well this sure brings back memories. I had one of my regular customers (heavy truck dealership) recomend me to a client of theirs. I did not take a deposit as I was asured they were "OK". Did drawings for the straight truck, 2 revisions then went ahead. 30 days pass, then 60. They tell me the problem is at the head office in Toronto. I get a fax #, phone # and e-mail address,,,all useless. 8 months later someone finally answers the phone and tells me the company is in recievership and I must call the people in control of the company until it is restructured. So I call the number given and am told I missed the creditors meeting by about a week and I'm out of luck. To add the final touch the company started up under another name and kept using the truck so I get to see $1800 worth of reflective logos and graphics (minus the old name) drive around town regularly.
-------------------- Dan Vanderknaap Atlantic Autographics Scoudouc NB Posts: 43 | From: Moncton,New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
To add to my post above. I have been stiffed a few times in my career. And I've been dealt bad hands on occasion (with malice) to the tune of 10's of thousands of dollars.
I even ripped a small sign off a guys wall once. It took good sized bits of plaster with it. I later felt so bad for losing my temper I returned and gave it back to him at no charge. He wasn't right, but my action was no better.
I'm getting smarter through experience.
And the biggest lesson I've learned is to take at least half my money up front. On bigger jobs I do progress draws to keep me in the black through the job.
And on the infrequent occasion I do get stiffed for a small amount its simply time to swallow my pride and move on. I try not to let others ignorance or selfishness make me act the same way. Hatred of others eats you up far more than it harms the other folk involved.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nice to see the comments here about the negative power of hatred. Thanks all for pointing this out. This situation is really a blessing in disguise and a learning experience, Ryan, because now you've learned to take a deposit and get a signed agreement.
Chalk it up and move on to the next job!
[ March 06, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Mark Smith ]
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300 Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sorry guys but I'm just not as nice and forgiving as most. I'll bend over backwards to do the right thing but when someone intentionally f's with me Im gonna burn their a$$ but good and feel no remorse or regret.
I'm sick and tired of turning the other cheek and since Im a proud athiest I dont give two iotas about being nice and doing the right thing after be taken advantage of. Treat me with respect and I'll go to the end of the earth with you. Screw me once and you will burn in hell beside me.
I can still smile about that bittch and the look on her face when I took that sign back. I worked hard on that sign to put food on the table for my kids while she talked about her fantastic trips to the carribean. She's lucky I didnt do worse back then when I was a crazy man.
[ March 06, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
When I was just starting out, I sold a beautiful custom standing sign in the shape of a waiter with the towel over the arm, bow tie and the smug look to go with it. He was holding the daily specials. I got 50% dp but never got the balance. One day I went in for lunch. On my way out (it was just inside the front door) I escorted the waiter to my trunk. The owner called and said his sign got stolen and he needed a new one (that took balls!). I charged him the balance from the first job, plus interest, and the price of the sign again in advance. I felt real guilty for about 10 min...
-------------------- Terry Baird Baird Signs 3484 West Lake Rd. Canandaigua, NY 14424 Posts: 790 | From: Canandaigua, New York | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have taken 3 people to small claims recently and turned a Detroit attorney over to a collection agency. The attorney owed me 1100+ for a year so I settled with the agency for $860. I didn't think that I would get the 1100. so the 25% the agency took was worth it.
Two customers came in and paid the day before the court date. I had even added on the cost of the filing charges + one hour shop rate that it took me to mess around with this. The last guy that I just took to court-we actually went before a judge. I had done one truck lettering which I got paid for. The second one the owner wasn't happy. Both of these jobs I had dealt with an employee and not the owner. The owner stated the case that he never gave the employee the right to do this. I had presented the judge with all signed faxes and the judge saw this as a contract and it went my way except for the $60. I addded for 1 hour shop rate. I did get my filing fees back.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Speaking of small claims. I received a judgement also but never collected one penny. So much for justice. But to this day they still can't locate the body. I often wonder what became of that low life?
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Karyn and Bob are quickly becoming my allies here in letterville. I knew there was something I liked about each of them from the beginning. Now, I learn it's that we think alike.
And Terry, that is priceless. Thanks for a great story.
I'm not sure how I would handle this, but it's been a great education reading everyone's posts. I think I would personally want to repo the sign. If I was in an ok mood, I'd send the registered letter and see what happens, Now, say I just had a really bad customer who put me in a really bad mood...I'd probably go repo this sign right then and there just to let off the frustration.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I like the idea of calling the IRS. Even if the idea that not paying you constitutes income for them is not valid, those evil basturds can make life miserable for anyone.
As for repos, the only way anything can be legally taken back is by having a customer sign a contract to that effect at the time of purchase. That's how banks do it - when you borrow the money for that car, the contract says they have the right to go onto your property and take it back if you don't pay. There's nothing stopping any of us from having the same kind of contract - I have one, and you can too. You'll get far more mileage from talking to a lawyer about the legal wording of a contract than you'll ever get suing in small claims. Plus you have the immense satisfaction of knowing you can LEGALLY repo a sign from a deadbeat, and there's not a thing the cops, lawyers, or anyone else can do about it.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cam, Do you have to have that agreement notorized or anything or can you just simply word it and print it out on the invoice/contract with a signature line?
-------------------- Ryan Ursta Ursta Graphics 116 B North Mercer Avenue Sharpsville Pa. 16150 Call: 724•962•2206 "We make YOU look good"
Known as "Ugraph" on mirc Posts: 558 | From: Sharpsville Pa. USA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Have you researched the possiblity of a mechanics lien. They were applied quite liberly by disgruntled unpaid contractors in Ga. Since it has become a portion of the building I would think the stautes apply.
-------------------- Brenda Eggleston EstiMate Software 20 Battery Park Ave Asheville, NC 28801 888-304-3300 brenda@pricingmadeeasy.com Posts: 3 | From: Asheville, NC | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
We don't use small claims court as they have no power to help with collection after judgement. We go to District Court, sue, get a judgement and the court does the collecting including all fees, court costs and attorney fees and acrued interest. Now that is revenge. No you can't repo here either.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
As a licensed contractor in California I need to go through a process of forms that get signed prior to the job in order to do the lein at the end. It seems silly for under ten grand.
The collection agency seems to be the strongest retaliation because should they default it goes on their credit report and is not easily removed. This doesn't get your money but messes them up. That seems like the biggest threat you have, and their credit rating might be worth more to them than what you want.
If you take the sign back, they'll probably buy a new one elsewhere.
Even if the tickets are not something you'd like to see, there are probably people you could really bless with them. That sounds like the route I'd take.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
A shop I worked for years ago was owed for a big illuminated pole sign. It was a national fast food chain. He had the verbage in his contract that the property was his until paid in full. We went out with the crane truck & cut the sign down, hauled it to the shop. About a week later they paid the original bill, plus additional to remove it and reinstall it.
I have a couple of small losses a year that I put in the unpaid file. But if it were a big job I would take some action.
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I knew there was something I liked about each of them from the beginning. Now, I learn it's that we think alike.
Printer-friendly view of this topic