posted
that has the longest lived exterior sytem that also cuts as well as prints??? Is it the new Roland?? Need advice. (whoa.......there's something I don't already know??)
<:^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Glen is very correct. The Geber Edge and a high speed plotter with sprockets. (thats for printing and cutting hundreds of stickers that you will make your most money on)
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Stop in and visit a while! 309-828-7110 signman@davesworld.net Raptorman or Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I also have Edge II and cannot say enough kind things about it, however...
If I owned nothing at all right now, and was not in a huge rush to buy today, I would be tempted to hold back a short while to see what Orion is all about, and how the price/performance stacks up against Edge II. I think that four color short life outdoor banners are going to be a big market in the not too distant future.
------------------ Victor Georgiou Bob Loves Signs Inc Danville, CA email blssign@pacbell.net
Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Are you going to print small, large, indoor, outdoor? The Edge is great but I do a lot of box trucks and larger outdoor stuff. I went with the Summa Durachrome.... Good stuff and with the Durasign you cant beat the ease of contour cutting.
------------------ Brian Stoddard Expressions Signs A few puddles east of Seattle
Posts: 790 | From: Monroe, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Large outdoor, Brian......Have you guys heard about the collaboration between Roland and Avery on a new 5-7 year Product??
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Hey, you guys.......does the Edge CUT as well as print?? If you print an irregular shaped logo will it track the perimeter?
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
FORGET ABOUT THE COLOR CAMM, I BOUGHT ONE ABOUT A YEAR AGO. I DON' LIKE IT ,ITS JUNK. THE PRINTING IS NOT THAT GOOD OF QUALITY(BANDING ETC). THE GRAPHICS ARE NOT DURIBLE AS ADVERTISED. THE PROBLEM IS THEIR INK CARTRIDGES,THEY ARE NOT U.V. RESTISTANT AFTER A COUPLE OF MONTHS THE RESIN THAT THE INK CARTRIGES ARE MADE FROM TURN CHALKY AND IF YOU LICK YOUR FINGER AND RUB THE GRAPHIC THE PRINTING WILL WASH OFF. ROLAND AND THEIR DEALERS MILL BLAME THE GRAPHIC FAILURE ON EVERYTHING EXCEPT THIER INK. (I.E. WRONG APPLICATION, TOO SEVERE AN ENVIORMENT WASHING THE GRAPHIC AND "COLOR SANDING OFF THE INK") THEY'LL TELL YOU TOU MUST CLEARCOAT THE GRAPHICS TO BE OUTDOOR DURABLE(ADDING TO THE COST PER SQ.FT OF THE PRINT,ALOT MORE LABOR WEEDING AND INSTALLING ESPESSLY OVER RIVETS). I TRIED A COUPLE DIFFERENT TYPES OF SIGN GRADE CLEAR.THE GRAPHICS FADE OUT UNDERNEATH THE CLEAR. I'VE BEEN HAVING A FRIEND WITH A GERBER EDGE DO MY DIGITAL PRINTS FOR ME AS I CAN'T WARANTEE MY COLOR CAMM PRINTS.MY ADVICE TO YOU IS NOT TO BUY A COLOR CAMM.
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Posts: 4 | From: moose lake mn usa | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
The edge and edge 2 are both just printers - you'll have to purchase the cutter separate. They also only use 15" material which is easy to handle by one person. Things to think about. Have a good one Pierre
------------------ Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
(425) 252-6110 briandiver@excite
Posts: 770 | From: Everett, WA 98201 USA | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I had a color-camm, fargo 310s and now have an Edge1. Without a doubt, the Edge is the way to go. I don't print the volume as others do,but it has always been a dependable asset to our business. Good luck in your decision!
------------------ De'ja Voodoo? Bryan Quebodeaux Design Works Church Point, LA 318-684-6058
[This message has been edited by Bryan Quebodeaux (edited January 16, 2001).]
Posts: 167 | From: Church Point, La. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I dont know about the Roland stuff other than the only advantage may be that it print and cuts on one machine. But then that is a disadvantage too since I can be printing with the printer and cutting something else at the same time. Some guys panel Edge prints to make some pretty large stuff but that seems like a waste of time when you can print 50" panels and be done with it. The edge has the durachrome beat when it comes to small decals especially with the variety of spot colors available but I here that is going to change soon...(right Jim? I cant believe you have not jumped in here yet )I am very happy with the output of the Durachrome so far....
------------------ Brian Stoddard Expressions Signs A few puddles east of Seattle
Posts: 790 | From: Monroe, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The Edge just prints! But.... You place a cutline around the print and then stick the Edge print in the plotter and the software will tell the knife blade where to cut.
( you have to line up targets with a bomb sight that fits in the plotter first, then you pull out the bomb sight and slip in the knife tool.) Once the plotter is cutting, you can print more stuff on the Edge. That is called multi-tasking....pronounced "malty taskung" and means you can dump one employee. You can run several plotters off Gerber's Omega Software and the Edge at the same time....so maybe you can dump 2 employees.
AND NEONMAN THIS IS CONSIDERED SCREAMING ON THE BB AND WE DON'T LIKE IT...NONE OF US DO SO DON'T TYPE LIKE THIS ANYMORE OR WE WILL COME TO YOUR PLACE FOR A LETTERHEAD MEET! UNINVITED!
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Stop in and visit a while! 309-828-7110 signman@davesworld.net Raptorman or Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks, you guys......I guess no one's heard about the Roland-Avery deal? My wife found the info on the internet on Roland's website. If they truly have a 5-7 year exterior product comeing, would you still choose the Edge??
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I found it. It simply says that ROland is working with Avery to supply a "warranted" answer to outdoor applications. Their rep says 5-7 year applications. Maybe I'd better wait??
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
I e-mailed the TXT file to you but it came back as undeliverable. So, I'll repost it here if no one objects.
Also, I went to Roland's site, but I still can't find anything about a Roland/Avery/5-7 year stuff. I suspect that the vinyl is 5-7 years....NOT the print itself. I'd like to read the fine print.
* * * * * *
Anyhooo....Here's the old post....
Well, having owned both a ColorCamm and an Edge, this is what I've learned..... Nomon speaks of the "true costs." Let's look at that.
2) Software: ColorCamm ...... $200.00 and up Gerber Omega ... $4000.00 (note: there are other software packages that can drive both brands of printers)
3) Cutters: ColorCamm ...... Integrated with printer. Gerber Edge .... $6000.00 and up for a seperate plotter.
4) Speed: ColorCamm ...... 8 minutes per sq.ft. per color. Gerber Edge-1 .. 43 seconds per sq.ft. per color. Gerber Edge-2 .. 14 seconds per sq.ft. per color.
5) Consumables Costs: ColorCamm ...... $2.25 per sq.ft. per color. Gerber Edge .... 66cents per sq.ft. per color.
So for sake of argument lets say that it cost $8200.00 to start with a ColorCamm, $29,000 to start with an Edge-1, and $36,500 to start with an Edge-2. As a side note, I figured a Gerber enVision 375 plotter at $10,000 to go with the Edge rather than $6000 for a Gerber GS-15.
Normally, equipment is depreciated over a 3 year period. That works out to $11.39 per business day for the Colorcamm; $40.28 per business day for the Edge-1 system; and $50.70 per business day for the Edge-2.
Then you have to factor in consumables. Lets say you want enough to print a 50 yd. roll of vinyl. Naturally, you will want Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black so that you can do full-color work. With the ColorCamm you will need to budget $1350.00 worth of ribbons. with the Edge, you will need to budget $432.00.
To print a 50 yard roll of vinyl one color, it will take the ColorCamm 20 hours; it will take the Edge-1 approximately 1 hour 54 minutes; it will take the Edge-2 approximately 38 minutes.
Next is the rate of return on your investment. You not only need to figure in the cost of the consumables, but also the cost of the equipment and labor. In this case, lets figure $30 per hour. We will ignor overhead expenses for the moment. To do a 12"x12" full-color print with the Colorcamm you will need to consider $9.00 for foil, 32 minutes of time, and 77cents for the cost of the machine for the time used; for the Edge-1 you will need to consider $2.34, 3 minutes, and 27cents respectively; for the Edge-2 you will need to consider $2.34, 1 minute, and 11cents respectively. Colorcamm Print ........ $25.77 Edge-1 ................. $ 4.11 Edge-2 ................. $ 2.95
The crux of the matter is two fold.... 1) The amount of time that the machine is idle. 2) The amount of volume you may and/or actually do per day.
This, of course, ignors any possible down time due to repairs or mis-prints.
I have always maintained that it doesn't matter what the equipment cost, but rather how much I can produce with it.
If you do not anticipate doing much printing, then the ColorCamm may be fine for the occasional job. However, if you are doing any kind of volume, then the Edge is a must.
For myself, I average about 3 50yd rolls of vinyl per day right now. During the peak season, I am running about 5 or 6 rolls per day. When you do the math, I can't afford a ColorCamm but I can easily afford an Edge. Also, if I markup my material 400%, the retail price of an Edge print is about the same as the "at cost" price of a ColorCamm print. That makes the Edge owner more competitive than a ColorCamm owner. The only time the reverse would be true is if there were very little work available each week.
So far this year, I have done only about $75,000 worth of Edge prints this year. At least half of that is pure profit. I can't do that with the ColorCamm in the same given amount of time and at the same price level.
Again, the key is volume. I generate between $200 and $400 per hour in gross sales with the Edge when it is running. I don't see how the ColorCamm can match that.
The Colorcamm, based on its design and material, is more for printing small items no larger than a license plate. You can print a 2'x4' photo with it without having a seam. The only drawback I see to printing something that large is the cost of having to redo a print because of a streak caused by a dust particle. Not only will you have lost a lot of foil, but time as well. That was a big aggrevation in my shop when we had our PNC-5000. If I get a streak on a print with my Edge, it wasn't nearly big of a problem in terms of material or time.
Then there is the matter about cutting the prints. Many ColorCamm owners tout the fact that the ColorCamm doesn't require a seperate cutter. That's true. But, when you factor in any sort of volume or "multi-tasking, it is actually a disadvantage. The ColorCamm will only let you print and then cut. With the Edge system, I can be printing one job, cutting another, and prepping a third job all at the same time. That makes me more productive and profitable.
My intent of this post is not to be Pro Edge or Anti ColorCamm, but rather to get people to stop and think a bit before they buy anything. So many are concerned about the immediate price of a piece of equipment without thinking about the return on their investment.
posted
Glen I know what you mean with the cost of do-overs We got alot of them with the color-camm. How did Your color-camm graphics hold up vs the edge graphics? jim@neonman.net
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Posts: 4 | From: moose lake mn usa | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Thanks, Glenn........I read it all and cannot disagree with your logic. BTW.......undeliverable?? stmariegraphics@centurytel.net ?
Thanks again for the info.......VERY informative......as usual!
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
It could be me. I just got cable internet service yesterday and I've been setting up the e-mail system here. I probably have something screwwed up.
Neonman,
The Colorcamm prints didn't hold up very well. At the time, I barely got 1 year's life out of any of them. Perhaps things have changed. I don't know. Back then, Fuji was making the foils for Roland. Maybe ZeroNine's and DuraCoat's refills will do better these days.
As for Gerber, I've been pleased. So far, the foils have held up as Gerber promises for the most part. The only difficulty I've had is on CMYK prints on reflective. Without the Gerber UV laminate, I am only getting about 2 years out of the print. But I think that is understandable considering the light traveling through the translucent colors are boucing back through, effectively causing the foils to work twice as hard.
posted
NO ONE has the solution yet for long term (5+ years) durability. I don't use 3 year vinyl on my permanent signage, so none of the above printers impresses me.
------------------ Tim Whitcher Quality Signs & Design 107 E Adrian St Blissfield, MI 49228 qualitysigns@cass.net
Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Where 5+ years outdoor durability is concerned, the problem isn't the printer, its the pigment/resin/ink. Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow are transparent colors. The simple physics of them and UV prevent a longer life span. You have to put something between the UV rays and the pigment in order for the print to last longer. Right now, the only answer that I know of is to apply a clear overlaminate with ant-UV properties such as tedlar or PVF.
In the case of Gerber, that would be Gerber UV Guard. Then and only then will Gerber warranty it for 5 years on both VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL surface. Without the overlaminate, the existing warranty is only good on VERTICAL surfaces.
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